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Forums - Gaming - MGS4 to have 90 minute long cutscenes?

Words Of Wisdom said:
Torillian said:
Words Of Wisdom said:
Torillian said:

Hell I don't see this as much worse than your average RPG, and it'll probably have more involved gameplay than most turnbased RPG's.


There is more to gameplay than the amount of time spent mashing the controller. You know this right?


Well I'd be interested to hear what you mean by this. Although sometimes I suspect you just like to say nicely quotable things for later video game inspired fortune cookies.

If you mean that you don't have to be pressing buttons to be immersed in the game, I would agree, but I think that some would not define non button pressing segments of the game as "gameplay"

 

Ack, he's onto me!


Let's take a game like Fire Emblem as our example. Now, the gameplay consists of selecting a unit, moving it, and choosing a weapon to attack with. That's the extent of the button-pressing part of this example.

However, with each of those individual steps there is a lot of thought and time spent. Do you select your axe-wielding horseman or your sword-wielding myrmidon? Do you move her onto cover to prepare for the enemy's movement or do you attack straight out? Do you attack with the iron sword that has more accuracy and uses but less power or the silver sword with more power but fewer uses and less accuracy?

Sure you're just doing 3 things in the game but the thought process that goes into those three things can be incredibly deep. I consider all that thought and preparation to be gameplay just as much as the individual button presses.


 Ahhh....but that's an SRPG.  Whereas in your average JRPG I think that there is alot less strategy involved with each move, and can often devolve into "smack thing until you need to heal or the thing is dead".  

I see where you are coming from, but I don't think what you are talking about is true for the majority of RPG's.  

I just don't understand when cutscenes became this aweful thing that everyone hates.  I've always loved cutscenes in all of my games.  Some of my best video game memories are from cutscenes.



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shio said:
DTG said:
starcraft said:
Oyvoyvoyv said:
Why do you complain? This is taking story to the next level, if you dislike story, buy the mindless shooter games, they outnumber games like this by at least 5:1.
The best games integrate most of their story into the gameplay, ala Bioshock.

 


I disagree. Bioshock has nowhere near the scope of storyline MGS games have. You cannot integrate story into gameplay, it is impossible because it can only make for a superficial narrative. You can imply certain themes and ideas but not tell an actual word by word story. Nor can you impart a well argued social and political commentary that is so integral to MGS games through gameplay. Bioshock failed miserably when it came to delivering a truly mature storyline. It juggled with some philosophical ideas that the writers tried to raise yet it failed to explore any of them in any meaningful manner, percisely because there was not enough storyline behind it to provide substance.

Planescape: Torment almost completely integrates the story in the gameplay, and Planescape has the best story in videogaming history. Hell Fallout 1&2 have their stories fully integrated in the gameplay, and those stories are some of the best ever.

 

 


 Planescape has an 800.000 word script. How can you say that it integrates it into its gameplay? The whole game is more like an interactive novel.



rocketpig said:
Profcrab said:
rocketpig said:
I think my biggest disappointment with this is Kojma's desire to continue to make a game into a movie instead of blending the two a la Mass Effect. I don't mind cutscenes but developers need to learn to take advantage of the medium's strengths better. Instead of locking the player out of the story (like cinema does), welcome the player into the scene and give him/her options for movement, conversation, and manipulating the scene.

After all, the industry is referred to as interactive media, right?

In many ways, Japanese game designers seem to pursue the same line of reasoning as anime. They have an idea for a really far out there story and they do everything to make it work instead of modifying the story to make it work. Cutscenes are how they still push their story concept even when it wouldn't fit the gameplay of that game.

90 minutes sounds like an exaggeration but even 20 minutes is too long for a video game and I can easily see Kojima including cutscenes that are 20-30 minutes. I just think he is way too high on his own ideas and is suffering from the George Lucas problem where no one can tell him "No!". Think of all the extra work that could be done on the game that might have gone into cutscenes.


The George Lucas point is a valid one. Someone needs to hire an assitant with a hammer to follow both of them around and whack them in the head whenever they try to do something insanely stupid with a quality franchise.


 It's quite pathetic when developers adher to the demands of fans. We've seen it happen with MGS3 where Kojima listened to complaining players and compromised the story to make it more accomodating for the public. A true artist doesn't compromise his vision regardless of what anyone around him says because if he does it will no longer be true to his original creative intentions. Fan service is what destroys any artistic ambition in games.

 As for you commenting on the industry being interactive, have you forgotten that there is near 20 hours of gameplay? MGS has always been known to be a cinematic experience first and a game second and I'm baffled why people would be upset and surprised by this news considering MGS' track record.



rocketpig said:
Torillian said:
rocketpig said:
Torillian said:
y'know though....some people really enjoy cut scenes and would prefer not to see them go extinct just because some of you guys deem it beneath you. Hell I watched tons of Xenosaga without playing, and I loved it.

The point isn't that they should go away, the point is that taking up half of an interactive game with them is unacceptable in this day and age. Technology has improved to the point where engine-based scenes that allow player interaction are becoming the norm and are actually moving the industry forward in ways that movies could never do.


But what you find unacceptable, I'm actually looking forward to. If you don't want a bunch of cutscenes in your games then I have no issue with that, and suggest you don't play MGS, but just because you can do something differently doesn't mean you should. As long as there are people like me who look forward to these types of games and actually enjoy them, then there will be a market for these cutscene heavy games and you won't see them die off.

Hell I don't see this as much worse than your average RPG, and it'll probably have more involved gameplay than most turnbased RPG's.

The big difference in turnbased RPGs is that to involve the player in a scene, it would completely disjoint the gameplay. RPGs aren't very immersive because of this and are enjoyed in a different level. Action games are different. The player is more immersed in the environment and it makes more sense to add another layer of immersion with interactivity and limited cutscenes.

Besides, it's not like I'm the only one who feels this way. Kojima's budgets for these games have continued to skyrocket and MGS sales have continued to dwindle with each installment. I chalk that up to western developers like BioWare and Rockstar taking more advantage of the medium and frankly, they're leaving developers like Kojima Productions in their wake.

 You mixed things: Action-centric games are actually the ones that use, and are more excused on using cutscenes, because they are usually light on story and do not need to utilize methods on incorporating it on gameplay as muc, which would also help the action gameplay be completely by itself, which is OK.

Story-Heavy or Story-centric games (such as RPGs and Adventures), those are the ones that really need to put the story inside the gameplay. That's why many of them use outlets such as:

- NPC Interaction, a great way for interactive dialogue scenes, and leaving the player in full control.

- Optional content, necessary to spread the story without losing any amount. It would also give the player the choice to how much he wants to play it. It's also a great way to increase replay value.

- Story-specific gameplay, which is about features that are very story-related, but it's not optional and impacts the gameplay heavily. One example is Planescape: Torment's main character, the Nameless One, an 'immortal' which loses his identity and memory every times he dies. When the player(in control of Nameless One) dies, he doesn't lose the game, but he re-awakens with his entire memory removed. What better way to explain death, rebirth and immortality than to actually experience it in the game

 

Adventure games, the most story-centric genre, don't have many cutscenes, believe it or not. They instead use ALOT of NPC interaction to keep the story going. Perfect example: Grim Fandango, an 18hours Adventure and only has like 30min of cutscenes in the entire game.

As for RPGs: Fallout 1&2 (everything optional, amazing stories), Planescape: Torment (best story ever), Baldur's Gate 2 (Bioware's finest).

 

Funny you mentioned Bioware, when they are actually using Less interactivity in their games than before (and are nowhere near as good as their early times). Kotor and Mass Effect were extremely linear (ME not as much), and there was much less optional content and NPC interaction than Bladur's Gate 2. Let's hope Dragon Age won't be like them, and be more like BG2.

 

MGS4 and JRPGs are the aberrations of the Story-Centric games since they support heavily cutscenes, and that directly contradicts the Industry norm. But they're from japanese developers, so it's not surprising.

 

DTG said:
shio said:
DTG said:
starcraft said:
Oyvoyvoyv said:
Why do you complain? This is taking story to the next level, if you dislike story, buy the mindless shooter games, they outnumber games like this by at least 5:1.
The best games integrate most of their story into the gameplay, ala Bioshock.

 


I disagree. Bioshock has nowhere near the scope of storyline MGS games have. You cannot integrate story into gameplay, it is impossible because it can only make for a superficial narrative. You can imply certain themes and ideas but not tell an actual word by word story. Nor can you impart a well argued social and political commentary that is so integral to MGS games through gameplay. Bioshock failed miserably when it came to delivering a truly mature storyline. It juggled with some philosophical ideas that the writers tried to raise yet it failed to explore any of them in any meaningful manner, percisely because there was not enough storyline behind it to provide substance.

Planescape: Torment almost completely integrates the story in the gameplay, and Planescape has the best story in videogaming history. Hell Fallout 1&2 have their stories fully integrated in the gameplay, and those stories are some of the best ever.

 

 


Planescape has an 800.000 word script. How can you say that it integrates it into its gameplay? The whole game is more like an interactive novel.

 Read my comments above. 

 



Torillian said:

Ahhh....but that's an SRPG. Whereas in your average JRPG I think that there is alot less strategy involved with each move, and can often devolve into "smack thing until you need to heal or the thing is dead".

I see where you are coming from, but I don't think what you are talking about is true for the majority of RPG's.

I just don't understand when cutscenes became this aweful thing that everyone hates. I've always loved cutscenes in all of my games. Some of my best video game memories are from cutscenes.


Hey, not all sayings are JRPG specific (who else dislikes that word?), and this one isn't.  Still, you're right in that a lot of RPGs amount to pressing the attack buttons until the enemies turn into bloody pulps however not all RPGs are Final Fantasy.  There are some where *shock* strategy is involved from the weapon you select to the actions in battle you perform.  Baten Kaitos Origins is a good example of an RPG where the system is actually very challenging to work with (it's too bad the story is a steaming pile of poo).  Even Skies of Arcadia did something neat with SP management.  How about Valkyrie Profile where there was a lot to be said for attack timing making or breaking certain fights.


Also, it's not so much that people dislike cutscenes rather just that people like to play games and when you're watching a cutscene you don't actually feel like you're playing anything because... well... you're not.  I was put off by Okami's obscene intro length because I wanted to play the game, not stare at small movie.  If you really like cutscenes then you'd probably appreciate CGI movies more than actual games because that's 100% the part you like.  The rest of us want the game to shut up and let us play with maybe a cutscene every once in a while for things you can't do in-game yourself or that just look really nifty as cutscenes.  Also, a lot of people (including myself) want to see more work done on the in-game models so that it's not painful to go back to the game after a cutscene.

 

Aka going from this:

 To this:



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Why are we still discussing this?

It's been proven false and exaggeration.

So, let's move on... Which version of GTA IV is better?



Cheebee said:

edited by Rocketpig, CheeBee somehow FUBARed the page layout. No problem, fixed.

 

Okay thanks, dunno what happened, but it sure was awkward. :p


Don't worry, it happens from time to time. I've done it myself once or twice.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

DTG said:
rocketpig said:
Profcrab said:
rocketpig said:
I think my biggest disappointment with this is Kojma's desire to continue to make a game into a movie instead of blending the two a la Mass Effect. I don't mind cutscenes but developers need to learn to take advantage of the medium's strengths better. Instead of locking the player out of the story (like cinema does), welcome the player into the scene and give him/her options for movement, conversation, and manipulating the scene.

After all, the industry is referred to as interactive media, right?

In many ways, Japanese game designers seem to pursue the same line of reasoning as anime. They have an idea for a really far out there story and they do everything to make it work instead of modifying the story to make it work. Cutscenes are how they still push their story concept even when it wouldn't fit the gameplay of that game.

90 minutes sounds like an exaggeration but even 20 minutes is too long for a video game and I can easily see Kojima including cutscenes that are 20-30 minutes. I just think he is way too high on his own ideas and is suffering from the George Lucas problem where no one can tell him "No!". Think of all the extra work that could be done on the game that might have gone into cutscenes.


The George Lucas point is a valid one. Someone needs to hire an assitant with a hammer to follow both of them around and whack them in the head whenever they try to do something insanely stupid with a quality franchise.


It's quite pathetic when developers adher to the demands of fans. We've seen it happen with MGS3 where Kojima listened to complaining players and compromised the story to make it more accomodating for the public. A true artist doesn't compromise his vision regardless of what anyone around him says because if he does it will no longer be true to his original creative intentions. Fan service is what destroys any artistic ambition in games.

As for you commenting on the industry being interactive, have you forgotten that there is near 20 hours of gameplay? MGS has always been known to be a cinematic experience first and a game second and I'm baffled why people would be upset and surprised by this news considering MGS' track record.


I've only said that Kojima is a poor story teller, not a bad game designer.  MGS4 will probably have solid gameplay and be fun inspite of the cutscenes, but people make Kojima out to be this grand video game visionary and he's not.  He's a good game developer that isn't a great story teller but is so thoroughly convinced that he is that he indulges himself in extensive cutscenes that tell overcomplicated stories.

MGS has not always been that way.  MGS2 was where the true self indulgence began.



Thank god for the disable signatures option.


Also, it's not so much that people dislike cutscenes rather just that people like to play games and when you're watching a cutscene you don't actually feel like you're playing anything because... well... you're not. I was put off by Okami's obscene intro length because I wanted to play the game, not stare at small movie. If you really like cutscenes then you'd probably appreciate CGI movies more than actual games because that's 100% the part you like. The rest of us want the game to shut up and let us play with maybe a cutscene every once in a while for things you can't do in-game yourself or that just look really nifty as cutscenes. Also, a lot of people (including myself) want to see more work done on the in-game models so that it's not painful to go back to the game after a cutscene.

 




But as I've read MGS4 uses the ingame engine for its cutscenes, so you shouldn't have to worry about the difference in game models for this particular case.

For the other issues, well then just skip over it, if all you want is to play the game. I have no problems with that and don't really mind if people hate cutscenes, but badmouthing a game for having cutscenes, when it is clearly what the fans of the series wanted, seems pointless. If you want to make MGS4 without cutscenes and piss off all the MGS fans, be my guest.



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Words Of Wisdom said:
Profcrab said:

Maybe Kojima should start painting from the corner to the door instead of from the door to the corner?

Bioware's games have been solid within the games themselves. Including all the backstory for every character and every situation is very, very difficult to pull of and sometimes irresponsible to do it.

Also, bringing up other games that may not have great storytelling doesn't help your case.


Pro-tip! Don't compare Bioware to other developers. It makes too many of them look bad.


 It also makes many of them look great. Bioware is nowhere near as good as their early years, their writing is severely lacking. Many developers have already surpassed them: Valve, Obsidian, CDProjekt, Turbine, Telltale are some of those.