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curl-6 said:
Chrkeller said:

Well Bezos isn't the CEO...  hasnt been for a number of years.  

And yes, it is a problem.  Yes it needs to get fixed.

But the "tax" them argument reeks of not understanding the system.  

People really ought to educate themselves before forming such strong opinions.

Executive chairman now, though the issues with unsafe workplaces and pay date back to his time as CEO.

But yes, simply raising taxes won't solve the problem, it's the underlying system that's rotten.

Taxes on the rich should be raised anyway so that the ill gotten gains of CEOs are put into making the world less rotten than the CEOs have made it.



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And why can't we just do data satellites instead of data centres? Satellites are at much lower risk of overheating because they're in the cold vacuum of space.



CaptainExplosion said:

And why can't we just do data satellites instead of data centres? Satellites are at much lower risk of overheating because they're in the cold vacuum of space.

Because space isn't cold.  Not in the way you think. 

The coldness in space is due to the extreme lack of density.  There's not enough stuff in space to get hot, so to speak, as heat in our traditional understanding has to do with particle excitation.  The actual particles in space might be very, very energetic and thus in theory hot.  But there are so few, that almost no heat is actually conducted to an object passing through that region.  And thus it is "cold" in the sense you radiate away far more heat than you receive.

However, that last bit is important:  you radiate that heat away.  It isn't pulled away like it is in a cold environment here.  In an atmosphere or in water, heat is pulled from a hot object because the excited particles of that object make contact with much less energetic particles and impart their energy to them.  This essentially pulls the heat out of the object until temperatures reach equilibrium, cooling you through conduction.  

But in space, that doesn't happen.  Instead, the particles of a hot object have to lose their energy on their own over time through radiative cooling.  This is orders of magnitude less efficient.  So for example, going outside with no protection in -45° F weather on earth will leave you frozen in under an hour.  In a space region of similar "temperature," it would take 16 hours or longer.

So in fact, space is terrible for things that need conductive cooling.  There's no heat sink in space that the heat can be pulled into.  That's why data centers wouldn't work and also why things like conventional nuclear energy and energy generators in general are more complicated to put into use there.

And on that tax the rich, affordability, etc things, I will be as brief as I can cause I do want us to stay on topic.  First, America has one of these most progressive tax systems in the developed world.  More than Sweden, more than Denmark, more than Germany, more than Australia, more than Britain.  When factoring in cash and in kind transfers, only the top half of income earners even pay federal taxes on net.  And setting that aside, the top 5% of income earners earn nearly 42% of income but account for 66% of all income taxes collected.  Meanwhile the bottom 75% account for 28% of incomes but pay 10% of the taxes.

And by net worth, it's the same story.  In 2022 (this kind of minute data can be tricky to find in a hurry since people have to compile it), the top 5% paid 1.3 trillion in income taxes, 61% of total income taxes.  The top 1% alone paid 855 billion.  The top 10% paid 1.54 trillion.  The bottom 90%?  600 billion.

America taxes its wealthy, the burden of federal taxes falls overwhelmingly on the upper class.  And transfers go overwhelmingly to the middle and lower class.  In fact, there's far more direct transfer of money from the top to the rest in America than Nordic countries like Sweden because while their welfare systems are more robust, they tax *everyone* far more.  The rich pay more taxes than in the US, yes, but the middle class pay far more and the working class far, far more.  Which is the point, the system doesn't work by taking from the rich to give to the poor per se, but rather by using funds raised from all to support a system that provides relatively flat but generous benefits.  Which is why it is pretty stable and well funded.

The real issue in the US is that unlike other coubtries in Europe, there are no laws or rules that force the Federal government to be efficient.  And I mean actually efficient, not the BS efficiency the current administration claims to want.  The Federal Government can run whatever deficit it wants and just kick the can of fixing all its problems down the road.  

Also, raising taxes=/= making things better.  It can, but it can also mean subsidizing sports stadiums, nonsensical economic stimulus that does nothing, expanded bureaucratic waste, wars, mass deportation activities, mass surveilance, vanity projects.  The government isn't a business, which means it isn't driven by profit, sure.  But that also means it isn't BOUND by profit.  It's actions can be capricious and arbitrary and are backed by a monopoly on violent force.  It doesn't have to do things that make sense, that people want.  Yeah you can vote them out, every 2 to 6 years.  But as this administration has shown, 2 to 6 years can be a long time.

And finally, on housing affordability and other dinner table issues, the causes of those are often much closer to home than the Federal Government or your equivalent.  Land use regulations in the US (and similar in Canada, Australia, and Brittain) account for many ills regarding housing on their own.  Until those are changed, the issues will persist. 

And it is a set of powers that government is loath to give up.  And the people who lobby hardest to maintain them aren't billionaire businessmen.  It's predominantly middle class busy bodies, the kind who will take a day off work to go to a town hall miles away to make melodramatic protestations about the fascist, violent, neo-colonial activity of someone - could be a big corporation or small business - constructing 50 appartment units.  Or 5 town houses.  Or converting a single family home to a duplex.  And no, I am not exaggerating, I can give ample examples because it happens *all the time.*

Similar regional and municipal regulations, relics of mid-century urban planning, poison cities in these countries, regulations established for the purposes of racial separation and class segregation.  And regardless of what party wields them or thwir motivations, they will continue their destructive work regardless.  The lack of interest in doing away with these is, in my opinion, the greatest hypocrisy of those local politicians who claim to champion affordability, urbanism, and a desire to end the defacto segregation that these regulations have caused.

Last edited by Nuvendil - 1 day ago

Nuvendil said:
CaptainExplosion said:

And why can't we just do data satellites instead of data centres? Satellites are at much lower risk of overheating because they're in the cold vacuum of space.

Because space isn't cold.  Not in the way you think. 

The coldness in space is due to the extreme lack of density.  There's not enough stuff in space to get hot, so to speak, as heat in our traditional understanding has to do with particle excitation.  The actual particles in space might be very, very energetic and thus in theory hot.  But there are so few, that almost no heat is actually conducted to an object passing through that region.  And thus it is "cold" in the sense you radiate away far more heat than you receive.

However, that last bit is important:  you radiate that heat away.  It isn't pulled away like it is in a cold environment here.  In an atmosphere or in water, heat is pulled from a hot object because the excited particles of that object make contact with much less energetic particles and impart their energy to them.  This essentially pulls the heat out of the object until temperatures reach equilibrium, cooling you through conduction.  

But in space, that doesn't happen.  Instead, the particles of a hot object have to lose their energy on their own over time through radiative cooling.  This is orders of magnitude less efficient.  So for example, going outside with no protection in -45° F weather on earth will leave you frozen in under an hour.  In a space region of similar "temperature," it would take 16 hours or longer.

So in fact, space is terrible for things that need conductive cooling.  There's no heat sink in space that the heat can be pulled into.  That's why data centers wouldn't work and also why things like conventional nuclear energy and energy generators in general are more complicated to put into use there.

And on that tax the rich, affordability, etc things, I will be as brief as I can cause I do want us to stay on topic.  First, America has one of these most progressive tax systems in the developed world.  More than Sweden, more than Denmark, more than Germany, more than Australia, more than Britain.  When factoring in cash and in kind transfers, only the top half of income earners even pay federal taxes on net.  And setting that aside, the top 5% of income earners early 42% of income but account for 66% of all income taxes collected.  Meanwhile the bottom 75% account for 28% of incomes but pay 10% of the taxes.

And by net worth, it's the same story.  In 2022 (this kind of minute data can be tricky to find in a hurry since people have to compile it), the top 5% paid 1.3 trillion in income taxes, 61% of total income taxes.  The top 1% alone paid 855 billion.  The top 10% paid 1.54 trillion.  The bottom 90%?  600 billion.

America taxes its wealthy, the burden of federal taxes falls overwhelmingly on the upper class.  And transfers go overwhelmingly to the middle and lower class.  In fact, there's far more direct transfer of money from the top to the rest in America than Nordic countries like Sweden because while their welfare systems are more robust, they tax *everyone* far more.  The rich pay more taxes than in the US, yes, but the middle class pay far more and the working class far, far more.  Which is the point, the system doesn't work by taking from the rich to give to the poor per se, but rather by using funds raised from all to support a system that provides relatively flat but generous benefits.  Which is why it is pretty stable and well funded.

The real issue in the US is that unlike other coubtries in Europe, there are no laws or rules that force the Federal government to be efficient.  And I mean actually efficient, not the BS efficiency the current administration claims to want.  The Federal Government can run whatever deficit it wants and just kick the can of fixing all its problems down the road.  

Also, raising taxes=/= making things better.  It can, but it can also mean subsidizing sports stadiums, nonsensical economic stimulus that does nothing, expanded bureaucratic waste, wars, mass deportation activities, vanity projects.  The government isn't a business, which means it isn't driven by profit, sure.  But that also means it isn't BOUND by profit.  It's actions can be capricious and arbitrary and are backed by a monopoly on violent force.  It doesn't have to do things that make sense, that people want.  Yeah you can vote them out, every 2 to 6 years.  But as this administration has shown, 2 t1o 6 years can be a long time.

And finally, on housing affordability and other dinner table issues, the causes of those are often much closer to home than the Federal Government or your equivalent.  Land use regulations in the US (and similar in Canada, Australia, and Brittain) account for many ills regarding housing on their own.  Until those are changed, the issues will persist. 

And it is a set of powers that government is loath to give up.  And the people who lobby hardest to maintain them aren't billionaire businessmen.  It's predominantly middle class busy bodies, the kind who will take a day off work to go to a town hall miles away to make melodramatic protestations about the fascist, violent, neo-colonial activity of a someone - could be a big corporation or small business - constructing 50 appartment units.  Or 5 town houses.  Or converting a single family home to a duplex.  And no, I am not exaggerating, I can give ample examples because it happens *all the time.*

Similar regional and municipal regulations, relics of mid-century urban planning, poison cities in these countries, regulations established for the purposes of racial separation and class segregation.  And regardless of what party wields them or thwir motivations, they will continue their destructive work regardless.  The lack of interest in doing away with these is, in my opinion, the greatest hypocrisy of those local politicians who claim to champion affordability, urbanism, and a desire to end the defacto segregation that these regulations have caused.

You are my new favorite person.  This, all this.

The US has a spending problem more than a tax problem.  Like giving away $188,000,000,000 in debt forgiveness.

What is the famous quote?  The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money.

I know I have personally paid over a million in taxes, and I use government resources less than most.  And some how the conclusion is take more.  How about we look at spending?



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Nuvendil said:
CaptainExplosion said:

And why can't we just do data satellites instead of data centres? Satellites are at much lower risk of overheating because they're in the cold vacuum of space.

Because space isn't cold.  Not in the way you think. 

The coldness in space is due to the extreme lack of density.  There's not enough stuff in space to get hot, so to speak, as heat in our traditional understanding has to do with particle excitation.  The actual particles in space might be very, very energetic and thus in theory hot.  But there are so few, that almost no heat is actually conducted to an object passing through that region.  And thus it is "cold" in the sense you radiate away far more heat than you receive.

However, that last bit is important:  you radiate that heat away.  It isn't pulled away like it is in a cold environment here.  In an atmosphere or in water, heat is pulled from a hot object because the excited particles of that object make contact with much less energetic particles and impart their energy to them.  This essentially pulls the heat out of the object until temperatures reach equilibrium, cooling you through conduction.  

But in space, that doesn't happen.  Instead, the particles of a hot object have to lose their energy on their own over time through radiative cooling.  This is orders of magnitude less efficient.  So for example, going outside with no protection in -45° F weather on earth will leave you frozen in under an hour.  In a space region of similar "temperature," it would take 16 hours or longer.

So in fact, space is terrible for things that need conductive cooling.  There's no heat sink in space that the heat can be pulled into.  That's why data centers wouldn't work and also why things like conventional nuclear energy and energy generators in general are more complicated to put into use there.

And on that tax the rich, affordability, etc things, I will be as brief as I can cause I do want us to stay on topic.  First, America has one of these most progressive tax systems in the developed world.  More than Sweden, more than Denmark, more than Germany, more than Australia, more than Britain.  When factoring in cash and in kind transfers, only the top half of income earners even pay federal taxes on net.  And setting that aside, the top 5% of income earners earn nearly 42% of income but account for 66% of all income taxes collected.  Meanwhile the bottom 75% account for 28% of incomes but pay 10% of the taxes.

And by net worth, it's the same story.  In 2022 (this kind of minute data can be tricky to find in a hurry since people have to compile it), the top 5% paid 1.3 trillion in income taxes, 61% of total income taxes.  The top 1% alone paid 855 billion.  The top 10% paid 1.54 trillion.  The bottom 90%?  600 billion.

America taxes its wealthy, the burden of federal taxes falls overwhelmingly on the upper class.  And transfers go overwhelmingly to the middle and lower class.  In fact, there's far more direct transfer of money from the top to the rest in America than Nordic countries like Sweden because while their welfare systems are more robust, they tax *everyone* far more.  The rich pay more taxes than in the US, yes, but the middle class pay far more and the working class far, far more.  Which is the point, the system doesn't work by taking from the rich to give to the poor per se, but rather by using funds raised from all to support a system that provides relatively flat but generous benefits.  Which is why it is pretty stable and well funded.

The real issue in the US is that unlike other coubtries in Europe, there are no laws or rules that force the Federal government to be efficient.  And I mean actually efficient, not the BS efficiency the current administration claims to want.  The Federal Government can run whatever deficit it wants and just kick the can of fixing all its problems down the road.  

Also, raising taxes=/= making things better.  It can, but it can also mean subsidizing sports stadiums, nonsensical economic stimulus that does nothing, expanded bureaucratic waste, wars, mass deportation activities, mass surveilance, vanity projects.  The government isn't a business, which means it isn't driven by profit, sure.  But that also means it isn't BOUND by profit.  It's actions can be capricious and arbitrary and are backed by a monopoly on violent force.  It doesn't have to do things that make sense, that people want.  Yeah you can vote them out, every 2 to 6 years.  But as this administration has shown, 2 to 6 years can be a long time.

And finally, on housing affordability and other dinner table issues, the causes of those are often much closer to home than the Federal Government or your equivalent.  Land use regulations in the US (and similar in Canada, Australia, and Brittain) account for many ills regarding housing on their own.  Until those are changed, the issues will persist. 

And it is a set of powers that government is loath to give up.  And the people who lobby hardest to maintain them aren't billionaire businessmen.  It's predominantly middle class busy bodies, the kind who will take a day off work to go to a town hall miles away to make melodramatic protestations about the fascist, violent, neo-colonial activity of someone - could be a big corporation or small business - constructing 50 appartment units.  Or 5 town houses.  Or converting a single family home to a duplex.  And no, I am not exaggerating, I can give ample examples because it happens *all the time.*

Similar regional and municipal regulations, relics of mid-century urban planning, poison cities in these countries, regulations established for the purposes of racial separation and class segregation.  And regardless of what party wields them or thwir motivations, they will continue their destructive work regardless.  The lack of interest in doing away with these is, in my opinion, the greatest hypocrisy of those local politicians who claim to champion affordability, urbanism, and a desire to end the defacto segregation that these regulations have caused.

Then it's back to not using AI that requires data centres. They're wastes of money, wastes of water, use more electricity than entire cities, increase noise pollution and harmful emissions. They're going to result in big deficits for the billionaires who built them in the first place, so nobody really wins with data centres.



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Chrkeller said:
curl-6 said:

It is a thorny issue, yes, but when you're the CEO, the buck ultimately stops with you when it comes to poor working conditions and wages.

You're absolutely right in that it's ultimately a problem with the system rather than any one individual, but when a tiny percentage of society have immense wealth while the majority struggle to get by, it's only natural people are going to get increasingly angry at the imbalance.

To put things in perspective, in 1965, a CEO made about 21 times more than a worker; nowadays a CEO makes nearly 300 times what a worker makes. So in just 60 years, the gap has ballooned by almost a factor of x15.

If this trajectory continues, we're at risk of reverting to an almost feudal society where the oligarchs at the top have absolute power and the other 98% live like serfs.

Well Bezos isn't the CEO...  hasnt been for a number of years.  

And yes, it is a problem.  Yes it needs to get fixed.

But the "tax" them argument reeks of not understanding the system.  

People really ought to educate themselves before forming such strong opinions.

The issue is how boards work and people getting paid in stock.

Again, it is about understanding the system.  Can't fix a problem unless we understand it.  I don't recall the exact quote, but Einstein said if the world was going to end in an hour he would spend 55 minutes understanding the problem and 5 minutes executing.

The amount of economic and legal inaccuracies i see on VG is mind blowing.

I need to find the video again and gonna attach it to this post once I do, but the rich are generally undertaxed out of fear they'd leave the country entirely.

The problem with that mentality is that it ignores network effects that are only available for the country they're in, as those have been built over the years and the company they're owning built around those. Also, being the foreign boss of a national company is just very bad publicity.

Long story short, raising the taxes for the rich would have very minimal effects on their risk of leaving. Sure, they'll complain super loudly that it would be stifling innovation and personal success, but considering all the ways they have to avoid taxes and their net worth, it'd be just a minor inconvenience anyway.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
Chrkeller said:

Well Bezos isn't the CEO...  hasnt been for a number of years.  

And yes, it is a problem.  Yes it needs to get fixed.

But the "tax" them argument reeks of not understanding the system.  

People really ought to educate themselves before forming such strong opinions.

The issue is how boards work and people getting paid in stock.

Again, it is about understanding the system.  Can't fix a problem unless we understand it.  I don't recall the exact quote, but Einstein said if the world was going to end in an hour he would spend 55 minutes understanding the problem and 5 minutes executing.

The amount of economic and legal inaccuracies i see on VG is mind blowing.

I need to find the video again and gonna attach it to this post once I do, but the rich are generally undertaxed out of fear they'd leave the country entirely.

The problem with that mentality is that it ignores network effects that are only available for the country they're in, as those have been built over the years and the company they're owning built around those. Also, being the foreign boss of a national company is just very bad publicity.

Long story short, raising the taxes for the rich would have very minimal effects on their risk of leaving. Sure, they'll complain super loudly that it would be stifling innovation and personal success, but considering all the ways they have to avoid taxes and their net worth, it'd be just a minor inconvenience anyway.

I don't recall claiming they would leave.  So I don't get your point on quoting me.  

My point was I think there should be restrictions on executives being paid it stock, because stock is much harder to tax and typically is taxed at a lower rate than ordinary income, hence my comment about all money flow should be taxed at the same rate.  



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There's so many apologists for billionaires out in the world today. Maybe some of them read Ayn Rand and took her seriously, acting like the Titans of Industry were all self-made men of great genius and that the plebs should be lucky to be given a paid job in the first place, like the secular, capitalist version of the "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" sermon. Sure, it's technically true that Jeff Bezos wasn't born rich. He didn't come from old money like Bush or Musk or Trump. But by time he was grown he was already living a respectable upper middle-class life. He had family members who were well off, including his maternal grandfather and his stepfather, enough to where in 1995 he was given a loan of $245,573, well over half a million in today's money. Seems like every billionaire is either born into wealth, or is at least well-off enough to have the connections and go to good schools and get big loans from family. How many billionaires lived their entire youths in trailer parks or Section 8 housing with a family bringing in poverty wages and their only job opportunities when they came of age were fast food, retail, or the military, but through sheer pluck and determination went from a relatively low five-figure income to an income literally six to eight orders of magnitude higher? Can't imagine it's many.

The fact is nobody makes their money alone. Legal systems, public infrastructure and services, and, if you're a business owner, the work of employees were all necessary for that payday to roll in. People that have an absolute shitload of money aren't the people who put in 40 hours plus overtime of hard, back-breaking labor. I've known countless people who worked hard their whole lives and are still living paycheck to paycheck. I've known people who did everything right and sacrificed and worked their way up the ladder to earn a somewhat better life only to get the axe due to layoffs. Like I said, vanishingly few of the people at the top started from the bottom.

The people that have a shitload of money have their fortunes because they own means of production. And the people who own the means of production, the capitalist class, often times took a lot of shortcuts and did a lot of exploitation to make or enhance their fortunes, making bank on the suffering of others, frequently getting a big leg up from the state in the form of bailouts, subsidies, tax breaks, deregulation, and the occasional CIA-backed coup of a non-compliant foreign government ("socialism for me, but not for thee" might as well be the motto of Corporate America). In the 19th & early 20th centuries it was the banana republics, abusive company towns, horrifically unsafe working conditions, and literal murder of employees for daring to go on strike. Today it's fossil fuel companies ignoring the negative externalities of their products or tech giants unleashing and forcing upon everyone possibly one of the most existentially dangerous technologies since the invention of the atom bomb. The amount of misery inflicted by the insatiable avarice of wealthy business owners is incalculable. There just seems to be something about becoming ultra-wealthy that turns people into sociopaths. They seem to view the rest of humanity as disposable, expendable cogs in a big money-printing machine, and now they're trying to find ways of making those cogs unnecessary in the first place by automating as much as possible. They've always viewed every employee as a drain on the bottom line, and if they could find a way to not have any employees, they'd do it, damn the consequences to society and its future, because there's profit to be made this fiscal year.


EDIT: Now, there are people that have become wealthy because of some rare talent, like being able to act or play sports at a high level. There's arguments to be had about whether an actor or musician or athlete deserves to get paid orders of magnitude more than people doing more important work "because that's what the market is willing to pay them," but at least they're doing actual work. I'll give them that much. Now the ones who moved on into business ventures and became even more wealthy by becoming capitalists, well, there's going to be capitalist bullshit involved in making money that way. That entertainer-turned-business owner almost certainly screwed someone over in the process of making their fortunes by owning things rather than through labor.

Last edited by Shadow1980 - 5 minutes ago

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