By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics - Do you consider yourself more left or right wing?

 

I am...

More left leaning 52 61.90%
 
More right leaning 32 38.10%
 
Total:84
sc94597 said:
curl-6 said:

It's not 1954 or 1965 anymore though, most people alive today weren't even born back then, segregation and such have been over for decades and decades.

Giving people a free ride cos of the skin colour or their gender doesn't solve the problem, at some point, people have to help themselves.

Okay, but you aren't addressing the point. Two populations of the same ethnic group existed. One population lived in a less segregated society. The other lived in a more segregated society. Today, the population that lived in a more segregated society has more equal outcomes and is far less segregated from the white population near it. How? Active interventions. The population that started out less segregated is about as segregated as it was in the 1950's and 60's. 

Your entire point depends on a natural passive route toward equality once legal barriers were lifted. But the evidence isn't showing that. Equality needs to be actively catalyzed by public policy and social forces. 

The entire way you are framing it as "free rides" is also disingenuous. Nobody gets free rides. Again, somebody overcoming a lack of opportunity to achieve the same result is more impressive than somebody who had more opportunities to get then there. 

If you hire, promote, or allow entry to people regardless of race or gender, than there isn't a lack of opportunity.

You can address inequality without methods like say racial quotas. If say education is an issue, then you can focus on making sure schools are better funded. A person may still make the choice to drop out of school though, and that's on them.



Around the Network
curl-6 said:
sc94597 said:

Okay, but you aren't addressing the point. Two populations of the same ethnic group existed. One population lived in a less segregated society. The other lived in a more segregated society. Today, the population that lived in a more segregated society has more equal outcomes and is far less segregated from the white population near it. How? Active interventions. The population that started out less segregated is about as segregated as it was in the 1950's and 60's. 

Your entire point depends on a natural passive route toward equality once legal barriers were lifted. But the evidence isn't showing that. Equality needs to be actively catalyzed by public policy and social forces. 

The entire way you are framing it as "free rides" is also disingenuous. Nobody gets free rides. Again, somebody overcoming a lack of opportunity to achieve the same result is more impressive than somebody who had more opportunities to get then there. 

If you hire, promote, or allow entry to people regardless of race or gender, than there isn't a lack of opportunity.

You can address inequality without methods like say racial quotas. If say education is an issue, then you can focus on making sure schools are better funded. A person may still make the choice to drop out of school though, and that's on them.

If people still find other ways to not hire people on the basis of race (and they do to this very day, this is a fact) then yes there is a lack of opportunity. 

If people are unbanked on the basis of the ethnic group they were born in, then yes there is a lack of opportunity. This happens today. 

If people live in a food desert because of the racial group they were born in, then yes there is a reduction in opportunity. 

If a person starts out in a worse public school district because they were born in a segregated location (and yes American cities, especially in the North, are still very much segregated) then yes there is a lack of opportunity.  

Racial quotas were banned in the 1970's in the U.S.

Positive discrimination/Affirmative Action (until last year) in the U.S had very little to do with racial quotas and much more to do with assessing what a person has done with the opportunities they had available to them on the basis of various socioeconomic factors, including race and gender but also things like zip code, familial education background, and familial income. 



sc94597 said:
curl-6 said:

If you hire, promote, or allow entry to people regardless of race or gender, than there isn't a lack of opportunity.

You can address inequality without methods like say racial quotas. If say education is an issue, then you can focus on making sure schools are better funded. A person may still make the choice to drop out of school though, and that's on them.

If people still find other ways to not hire people on the basis of race (and they do to this very day, this is a fact) then yes there is a lack of opportunity. 

If people are unbanked on the basis of the ethnic group they were born in, then yes there is a lack of opportunity. This happens today. 

If people live in a food desert because of the racial group they were born in, then yes there is a reduction in opportunity. 

If a person starts out it a worse school district because they were born in a segregated location (and yes American cities, especially in the North, are still very much segregated) then yes there is a lack of opportunity.  

Racial quotas were banned in the 1970's in the U.S.

Positive discrimination/Affirmative Action (until last year) in the U.S had very little to do with racial quotas and much more to do with assessing what a person has done with the opportunities they had available to them on the basis of various socioeconomic factors, including race and gender but also things like zip code, familial education background, and familial income. 

If access to education is the issue, then the solution is better funding for schools.

Food deserts are a tricky one cos in very poor areas (regardless of race) there's the risk that shoplifting due to said poverty could discourage supermarkets and the like.

Unbanking isn't something I'm particularly familiar with, but that would fall under the basic principle of that people should be treated equally, same as hiring. How best to realistically achieve this I can't say; if I had all the answers for solving inequality I wouldn't be spending my day on a niche video game forum.



curl-6 said:
sc94597 said:

If people still find other ways to not hire people on the basis of race (and they do to this very day, this is a fact) then yes there is a lack of opportunity. 

If people are unbanked on the basis of the ethnic group they were born in, then yes there is a lack of opportunity. This happens today. 

If people live in a food desert because of the racial group they were born in, then yes there is a reduction in opportunity. 

If a person starts out it a worse school district because they were born in a segregated location (and yes American cities, especially in the North, are still very much segregated) then yes there is a lack of opportunity.  

Racial quotas were banned in the 1970's in the U.S.

Positive discrimination/Affirmative Action (until last year) in the U.S had very little to do with racial quotas and much more to do with assessing what a person has done with the opportunities they had available to them on the basis of various socioeconomic factors, including race and gender but also things like zip code, familial education background, and familial income. 

If access to education is the issue, then the solution is better funding for schools.

Food deserts are a tricky one cos in very poor areas (regardless of race) there's the risk that shoplifting due to said poverty could discourage supermarkets and the like.

Unbanking isn't something I'm particularly familiar with, but that would fall under the basic principle of that people should be treated equally, same as hiring. How best to realistically achieve this I can't say; if I had all the answers for solving inequality I wouldn't be spending my day on a niche video game forum.

Many poor-performing districts already get better state and federal funding on a per student basis than high-performing districts. The problem is that it can cost more to educate a student in a low SES district than it does in a high SES district because they often have more needs/deficits and fewer resources outside of school. 

How do you fundamentally see this as different from affirmative action? Is the major difference that it isn't explicitly racial and it applies to a group (the district) and not an individual as a member of said group? 

Underlying any of these policy change recommendations is the fact that white-americans want segregation because they think it benefits them, so it isn't clear to me that they'd support increased public funding to mostly non-white districts systematically. The main advantage of integration/desegregation is that the racial aspect is de-emphasized because you have a decent proportion of white and non-white students mutually in the district and the parents have to be invested in the education standards of non-white children in the same district as their white children. 

One solution to unbanking is to bring back postal banking 



Tober said:
OdinHades said:

Schwarz-rot ist die Antifa, Antifa bin auch ich!

The more people are shifting to the right and are voting the Nazi scum from AfD for whatever stupid reason, the more extreme I'm leaning to the left. Because we all know what happened the last time when nazis took over germany. I consider it my duty to fight back against exactly that.

I'm not German, I'm your friendly western neighbor. I don't know much about AfD, but why are they considered rightwing? The Nazi's where socialist (it's in the name). Are AfD hardcore capitalist?

The Nazis were not socialist. At. All!

Yes, socialist is in the name, but if the name would be always saying exactly how the party is, then we'd have to move the statue of liberty from New York to Pyongyang. I mean, how can you be freer than in a democratic people's republic? Except that North Korea is neither democratic, for or from the people, and it's not even really a republic as the leader always comes from the same family.

Also, you have to consider National socialism in German is one word, not two. Linguistically, it suggests that this means socialism towards the nation, essentially turning socialism, which means from the state or nation towards the people, on it's head. Basically, national socialism means not that the state does things for the people, but that the people are supposed to do everything for their nation.

Finally, consider who the big backers of the nazis were: They were all big corporation bosses, not exactly the people who would back socialism. They did so because the nazi platform was patently anti-socialism and pro-corporations: unions got outlawed, wages frozen, worker rights eroded and companies could basically do as they please.

So no, the nazis were anything but socialist!



Around the Network
sc94597 said:
curl-6 said:

If access to education is the issue, then the solution is better funding for schools.

Food deserts are a tricky one cos in very poor areas (regardless of race) there's the risk that shoplifting due to said poverty could discourage supermarkets and the like.

Unbanking isn't something I'm particularly familiar with, but that would fall under the basic principle of that people should be treated equally, same as hiring. How best to realistically achieve this I can't say; if I had all the answers for solving inequality I wouldn't be spending my day on a niche video game forum.

Many poor-performing districts already get better state and federal funding on a per student basis than high-performing districts. The problem is that it can cost more to educate a student in a low SES district than it does in a high SES district because they often have more needs/deficits and fewer resources outside of school. 

How do you fundamentally see this as different from affirmative action? Is the major difference that it isn't explicitly racial and it applies to a group (the district) and not an individual as a member of said group? 

Underlying any of these policy change recommendations is the fact that white-americans want segregation because they think it benefits them, so it isn't clear to me that they'd support increased public funding to mostly non-white districts systematically. The main advantage of integration/desegregation is that the racial aspect is de-emphasized because you have a decent proportion of white and non-white students mutually in the district and the parents have to be invested in the education standards of non-white children in the same district as their white children. 

One solution to unbanking is to bring back postal banking 

I guess the difference would be allocating resources and support depending strictly based on need rather than race, like to an individual person based on how much they personally need it rather than whether they belong to a specific ethnic group, or to a district based on needs rather than the race of the people who live there. If that means helping a district that is mostly black, that's fine.



Bofferbrauer2 said:

essentially turning socialism, which means from the state or nation towards the people, on it's head. Basically, national socialism means not that the state does things for the people, but that the people are supposed to do everything for their nation.

The state can only give what the state have gathered from the people first. 

Nazis was not socialists. However it is a trait in socialistic structured nations that the state is large compared to the sum of individuals in that country. 



EricHiggin said:
Chrkeller said:

You can think I'm a "horrible person" all day long.  I don't much care what strangers think of me.  

And there is where right and left diverge.  Is isn't my responsibility to pay for someone else's family.  My family is my responsibility, which I take off.  Nobody pays for my family, I do.  I've already put four people through college.  I should pay for a 5th because reasons.  No thanks.  

I believe in personal responsibility.  

I take it we couldn't interest you in moving considerably more north? What if we renamed it something like 'Area 51'?

Wouldn't touch this one with a 10ft pole eh? LOL. I really don't get the American's sometimes. When someone wants to be left alone, they barge in, in the name of freedom, yet when someone actually wants some freedom, they ignore them. Must be nice. Sometimes I wish I was born American.

At least you clearly understand and follow rule #1 to a T. Never fully admit guilt to them, and absolutely, never, ever, apologize to them. Nothing good for you will ever come of it.



PS1   - ! - We must build a console that can alert our enemies.

PS2  - @- We must build a console that offers online living room gaming.

PS3   - #- We must build a console that’s powerful, social, costs and does everything.

PS4   - $- We must build a console that’s affordable, charges for services, and pumps out exclusives.

PRO  -%-We must build a console that's VR ready, checkerboard upscales, and sells but a fraction of the money printer.

PS5   - ^ -We must build a console that’s a generational cross product, with RT lighting, and price hiking.

PRO  -&- We must build a console that Super Res upscales and continues the cost increases.

Late to the party but I do not like the equity push. Equal outcome? Talent and hardwork play a huge role in outcome. People are not entitled to equal outcome. I'm not entitled to a Nobel Prize because there are more talented and harding working people than I am.

Equal opportunity should absolutely exist, but outcomes should vary. Work and skills should be rewarded.

And an un-level playing field drives motivation.  I dont work 50 hours a week for me, I do it to give my children an edge over the competition.  Equal outcome is de-motivating.  



i7-13700k

Vengeance 32 gb

RTX 4090 Ventus 3x E OC

Switch OLED

Chrkeller said:

Late to the party but I do not like the equity push. Equal outcome? Talent and hardwork play a huge role in outcome. People are not entitled to equal outcome. I'm not entitled to a Nobel Prize because there are more talented and harding working people than I am.

Equal opportunity should absolutely exist, but outcomes should vary. Work and skills should be rewarded.

And an un-level playing field drives motivation.  I dont work 50 hours a week for me, I do it to give my children an edge over the competition.  Equal outcome is de-motivating.  

Something that is true for individuals (outcomes should depend on decisions) don't generally apply to arbitrary groups/categories -- where different individuals within the group are making different decisions that should balance out on net in similar ways.

It makes sense (even if we assumed actual equal opportunity at birth, which would require no inheritance) for individuals to end up in different places. It doesn't make sense for arbitrary socially constructed groups -- like race for this to be the case, without considering some lurking variable(s) that applies generally to individuals in that arbitrary group. 

We should really want equality between arbitrary groups even if we don't think individuals should have equal outcomes, because that means we are on the right track with regards to equal opportunity. Being born into arbitrary group #1 shouldn't have a strong effect on the decisions you can make when compared to being born into  arbitrary group #2.

It is okay to suggest that we tolerate the inequality of opportunity that is inheritance to promote motivation (or long-term time-preference if you will) but there is a point where only prioritizing that just means society isn't equitable in any sense, including equal opportunity. There should be social institutions that allow one opportunities to fast- track past the decisions or luck of one's parents. Otherwise you have the opposite effect where motivation and productive capacity is stifled due to lack of opportunity inherited by the decisions or luck of others.