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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - I think the Next Xbox should be a premium price console

only777 said:
Otter said:

You're not touching on shader compilation though. Do PS5 games that are not "PS5 Pro Enhanced" (Most PS5 games/All PS4 games) Suffer Shader compilation issues on the Pro's GPU?

No, because they run in backwards compatablity mode. Those games can never take advantage of future hardware upgrades.

And if that's the point, why make a console that can be upgrade with modules if games can never take advantage of those future modules?

Also don't forget that NEC actually tried this already and it was a confusing mess for customers.

Hypothetically speaking if one of the core features of Xbox's next system was modularity, this could more easily be accounted for with guidance on future proofed in-game modes. This way they benefit the same way PS4 titles benefit from PS5's Boost mode. Things like Uncapped framerates with VRR, Dynamic Resolution and  system level control over both. But like all new hardware or hardware updates, the main attraction would be recent releases and up & coming games which will come with specific patches. 

There is a lot that can be done that hasn't because things were not moving in that direction. In 2012 if someone suggested performance modes on console, people would of told them that defeats the point of console. If someone said there is a weak Xbox and Strong one and developers need to develop for both, the same sentiment would of applied. Games are increasingly become more scalable with different modes, not the other way round. Even the Switch is reflective of this.

I'm not familiar with the NEC reference so I won't comment on that, I will just reinforce that the compilation stutter argument is not the reason why a modular system couldn't work. I'm not set on the idea of it either but the potential exists way beyond the initial, relatively small bottlenecks people are suggesting. 



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BasilZero said:

The reason why no one is buying an Xbox Series S is because the Series X exists.

No.

The Series S sells far more than the Series X

Source: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-series-x-vs-series-s-which-sells-better/1100-6517869/



Sony want to make money by selling art, Nintendo want to make money by selling fun, Microsoft want to make money.

SvennoJ said:

The problem is, making it modular (and fool proof) will drive up the price a lot, making for a bad value proposition.

Just look at the XBox SSD expansion, double the price of do it yourself.

Modular upgrades need to easily fit and be easily accessible, not get any problems with cooling, fool proof ultra fast connections.

A lot of stuff is integrated in consoles which saves costs. Consoles are also balanced for thermal load, power consumption, CPU, GPU, RAM integration. You can't just upgrade the GPU and hope for the best. The PS5 Pro also has 2GB extra RAM and the CPU runs 10% faster.

There might be room for easy upgrades, but that room disappears quickly when you pay a lot more for the option to be able to buy / add further upgrades. Power, cooling, balance will have to be designed with upgrades in mind.

"The PlayStation 5 motherboard has an integrated CPU and GPU, both custom-designed by AMD; the CPU utilizes the Zen 2 architecture, while the GPU is based on the RDNA 2 graphics architecture, meaning there is no separate, dedicated graphics card on the motherboard - it's all integrated within the single chip"

You got to pull that all apart for modular upgrades or the upgrade would simply be replace the whole console. (Which we already have with pro consoles)


Hence Steam boxes were not competitive. You simply paid more for restrictions in upgrades. And those weren't even designed for easy upgrades. The price would only be higher to achieve that.

PS4 Pro (somewhat) succeeded because the fully integrated design could keep the cost reasonable. To make it modular from the start the base PS5 would cost in the region of the PS5 Pro while an upgrade would be the price of the base PS5...

Besides that, a pro console dumps cheaper second hand consoles on the market. People 'subsidize' their upgrade by selling their original hardware. That's good for the consumer to get a deal, good for resellers, good for console makers. (Since they make more money on software sales than hardware)

Yeah, I agree with much of this in that I there are hurdles. Some degree of cost efficiency will absolutely be lost, the extent of which we can't really say. I'm not aware of any modern systems truly engineered in this way with the might and dedication of a console maker behind it. But there is also absolutely a market for it that could help secure MS a niche "if" they can make it work. That challenge is related to engineering & cost efficiency, not software compatibility as people suggested



only777 said:

No.

The Series S sells far more than the Series X

Source: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-series-x-vs-series-s-which-sells-better/1100-6517869/

So like I said in my original post you quoted, price matters.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9575164

If they had only the Series S and it was spec'd a bit better than the current S but not as high as the series X - they could have sold it at a lower price point.

Only down side would be their system wouldnt be as powerful as the direct competitor, the PS5 but at least it would have sold more units albeit not as much as a previous gen system did (PS2 against the Xbox and GCN).

Last edited by BasilZero - on 27 February 2025

Otter said:

Yeah, I agree with much of this in that I there are hurdles. Some degree of cost efficiency will absolutely be lost, the extent of which we can't really say. I'm not aware of any modern systems truly engineered in this way with the might and dedication of a console maker behind it. But there is also absolutely a market for it that could help secure MS a niche "if" they can make it work. That challenge is related to engineering & cost efficiency, not software compatibility as people suggested

For another comparison, we do have modular controllers now. Except they're really not that much better (still stick drift) and cost 3-4x as much.

There is a market for them, but it will be a very small one at $1000+ for a modular console.

Software compatibility is also still an issue. Games still need to be optimized for Series S and Series X, still need patches to make full advantage of ps5 pro. For example PS5 Pro does very little for PSVR2 apart from a handful of games that got patched. It will work, but doesn't justify the cost for the avg consumer.

The main issue with the PS5 Pro "Boost Mode" is that it may not deliver the expected level of performance improvement for older games, often falling short of the advertised 45% boost due to limitations in memory bandwidth, meaning some games might not see significant frame rate increases or visual enhancements even when using the feature;essentially acting as a compatibility mode rather than a full performance upgrade for all titles

Some games actually looked worse on PS5 Pro before they got patched :/



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only777 said:
DroidKnight said:

Xbox High-End console
Xbox Mid-Range console (PS6 level)
Xbox entry level console
Xbox Handheld console

Multiple devices for sure.

Xbox have a mid range and Entry level console now; and they failed. 

Why try it again? 

If people won't buy their hoem console, why would people buy an Xbox handheld over a Nintendo or Steam deck?

They wouldn't.

Yes, I accept that it's a small market (only ~15 Million) but I don't see what the business plan for releasing the other types of machine could be.

An entry level and mid-range option will give options to the consumer who may not be able to afford a high-end console. They will no longer be selling their hardware at a loss.  Over 30 million consoles sold so far, over 21.5 billion dollars in revenue for 2024 up from 15.4 billion revenue from 2023.  

Why try it again?  Different generation, different markets, different financial environment, different tech, different games, new consumers,....ect, not really the same thing again

If people won't buy their home console, why would people buy an Xbox handheld over a Nintendo or Steam deck?  Over 30 million people have purchased their home consoles, you are implying that no one purchased one.  As far as purchasing a handheld, a Nintendo or Steam deck is not going to allow you to play your existing Xbox library on the go.  And if rumors are true about Xbox creating the next hardware to work with Steam, then an Xbox handheld with both an Xbox OS and Steam OS would be very attractive.  

And as far as me listing multiple devices, that is based on what has already been revealed to be under development for the High-end device and the Handheld device. An entry level device needs to be a fully capable machine, not skimped on Ram, CPU, or GPU.  

Could they be doing better?  Absolutely

Is Xbox a failure?  Doesn't look like it

Will 2025 or 2026 be the years that Xbox fails? Nope

Xbox will continue to learn from their past mistakes and the next generation allows for an opportunity to correct them.  Sure, albeit new mistakes can occur.

You state "Why Try it Again?", that is loser talk.  I doubt any successful venture has ever had that shitty attitude. 



...to avoid getting banned for inactivity, I may have to resort to comments that are of a lower overall quality and or beneath my moral standards.

SvennoJ said:

For another comparison, we do have modular controllers now. Except they're really not that much better (still stick drift) and cost 3-4x as much.

There is a market for them, but it will be a very small one at $1000+ for a modular console.

Software compatibility is also still an issue. Games still need to be optimized for Series S and Series X, still need patches to make full advantage of ps5 pro. For example PS5 Pro does very little for PSVR2 apart from a handful of games that got patched. It will work, but doesn't justify the cost for the avg consumer.

The main issue with the PS5 Pro "Boost Mode" is that it may not deliver the expected level of performance improvement for older games, often falling short of the advertised 45% boost due to limitations in memory bandwidth, meaning some games might not see significant frame rate increases or visual enhancements even when using the feature;essentially acting as a compatibility mode rather than a full performance upgrade for all titles

Some games actually looked worse on PS5 Pro before they got patched :/

That is good old PSSR in action lol. Fault there lays in Sony. 

Boost mode on Pro has limitations, but as is listed, that is through memory badwidth limitations. Primarily you would be looking at a patch to take "full" advantage of new hardware as always. I don't that is a "issue" more just a reality of modern game development. I wouldn't imagine modularity means 10 different GPU upgrades but several within a generation to offer peak and midrange performance relative to the console environment of that time. 

Both the modular controllers and SSDs are high profit margin peripherals, neither have a stake in user penetration, so again I wouldn't use that to gauge actual cost of production or Bill of Materials. I don't think for example that the PS5 Elite controller BOM is even a third of its $199 sellling price.


Last edited by Otter - on 27 February 2025

only777 said:
BasilZero said:

The reason why no one is buying an Xbox Series S is because the Series X exists.

No.

The Series S sells far more than the Series X

Source: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-series-x-vs-series-s-which-sells-better/1100-6517869/

The Series S was 75% of Xbox Series sold as of Spring 2022 due to stock issues. Things changed once the Series X became readily available and since then it's been pretty even between the two and in fact the article you linked literally points this out in the exact same paragraph that has that 2022 ratio so you either immediately stopped reading the article after that sentence and didn't bother to properly verify things or are intentionally spreading misinformation here. You've been spreading quite a bit of misinformation in this thread in general with this and the inaccurate parts of the OP so you should be more careful to not do that cause this is a pretty rough thread really.

Last edited by Norion - on 27 February 2025

BasilZero said:
only777 said:

I can't see how that matters.

You can both right now, but instead most people are choosing neither.

For the few that do, they can buy them for as around £150-£200 on the 2nd hand ebay market:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=xbox+series+s&_sacat=0&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1

-------------

So if Microsoft can't sell a cheap console and they can't sell a normal priced console.  I can't see why they would choose either of these paths again.  Surely the premium console market (even though it's small) would be the only place left to go.

The reason why no one is buying an Xbox Series S is because the Series X exists.

The reason why people arent buying the Series X is because the games are being released day 1 on Steam.

If they had one SKU that wasnt as weak as the Series S or as strong as the Series X but in between and that was not as powerful as the competitors but powerful enough to be able to run the games at a decent performance/visual resolution without it being too expensive (i.e. a $400 SKU instead of it being a $300 or a $500), they would absolutely do a lot better than a premium priced Xbox which more than likely would be ignored considering you would likely be able to get a mid range desktop that would be more bang for your buck than a standalone console.

They are already bleeding money with what they are going through, making another high premium console would make things worse since it looks like they are pushing into becoming more of a service than a console maker (like Steam for an example).

Making an expensive Xbox console would stop the bleeding from hardware but greatly diminish brand significance and revenue.

Xbox as a platform is disappearing anyway due to Microsoft's multiplatform policy. Valve has a massive service in Steam, Microsoft really has no equivalent to that. The near future looks like this:

Nintendo: Console maker, 99.9% self contained platform holder.

Sony gaming: Console maker, 95% platform holder.

Valve: Hardware-less platform holder. Their own hardware are primarily accessories and not required for their services.

Microsoft gaming: 90% third party publisher, 10% platform holder. Soon their platform/services might become hardware agnostic (GamePass has been available on PC for years and they're trying to get it on Playstation and Nintendo platforms). Their platform will be tiny compared to the new "big 3". But their software is in a league of its own.

Tencent gaming: 80%~ third party publisher/owner, 20%~ platform holder. Is it just me or is Tencent the closest company to what Microsoft gaming is turning into?

Last edited by Kyuu - on 27 February 2025

DroidKnight said:

Xbox High-End console
Xbox Mid-Range console (PS6 level)
Xbox entry level console
Xbox Handheld console

Multiple devices for sure.

Surface High-End console
Surface Mid-Range console
Surface entry level console
Surface Handheld console

Surface laptop
Surface tablet
Surface smartphone

Oh, right, yeah, and they're all an "Xbox" too.



Ryzen 7 5700G

Radeon RX 6750 XT

16 GB of RAM

Steam Deck 

Nintendo Switch OLED