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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Games That Invented Genres?

SvennoJ said:

 Back when you could 'download' or rather record 'games' from the radio onto cassette tape. One way online sharing? I guess you could directly share over the phone ;) (Phone sound quality was soo much better back then)

I remember this oh so well - actual radio stations broadcasting games on the air, so everyone can record them.



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SimEarth, the first game in the Gaia Hypothesis simulation genre. Created from the hypothetical models of the late James Lovelock, inventor and scientist, passed away at 103 in 2022.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Bofferbrauer2 said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

Except I've named more games than anyone else.

If Wolfenstein 3D was the only FPS game, then there would never be a FPS genre.  It was not good enough to inspire imitators.  Once Doom came along, then there were a ton of imitators.  Doom is the game that actually made this style of game a genre.  The imitators are what turn a unique type of game into a whole genre.

Sorry, what?

Wolfenstein had countless imitators. Here's a small, non-exhaustive list of Wolfenstein clones that came out before Doom:

  • Corridor 7
  • Blake Stone
  • Ken's Labyrinth
  • Super 3D Noah's Ark
  • Nitemare 3D
  • Catacomb Abyss
  • Operation: Body Count
  • Shadow Caster
  • Rise of the Triad
  • Spear of Destiny (Basically Wolfenstein 3D 2)

And it's no wonder it had so many imitators considering it's sales and reach. Wolfenstein sold about 150.000 registered copies plus over 1M shareware versions. Anything that sold into the 6 digits on PC was a smash hit at the time. The secret of Monkey Island, one of the best-selling PC games of the time, barely sold twice as much as Wolfenstein - and unlike Wolfenstein, had retail copies outside the US where the shareware model was very difficult.

I mean, there's a reason why Wolfenstein clone was a common term before DOOM came out, at which point it became a DOOM-like (or Doom clone. Depending on the region and country, some used clone while others used -like), and then after Duke Nukem 3D a Duke-like, and than came the Quake-like until it got settled into the term FPS (yes, it took that long for the term FPS to take off and onlyr eally settled in around the time of release of Half-Life!).

One reason why there were quite a few; but not "tons" of imitators: DOOM came out just 18 months later, by the time many of the games that got influenced by Wolfenstein actually came out, the genre was already called DOOM-like

And even before Wolfenstein, there had been some games that would be considered FPS nowadays. Catacomb 3D or Hovertank 3D, anyone? But those didn't make nearly the push for the genre that Wolfenstein did

Bolded: By that assessment, we would only have FPS, RPG, Action-adventure, beat'em up and Jump'n run (plus maybe the loosely-defined arcade genre), because everything else wouldn't have reached the threshold to become a genre by your metric. RTS? Action-RPG? Racing? Simulations? Sandbox? Fighting games? None of those had enough releases in a year or two to beat even Wolfenstein and it's clones, which by your own account wasn't enough to become a genre. So why ever would those ever have become a genre but Wolfenstein 3D is denied that honor despite inspiring more clones on it's own?

Bofferbrauer2 said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

The games come first, then we invent words to describe the genre when there are enough games of that type.  Pong was not the first table tennis game, but none of us would be playing video games if it weren't for Pong.  The games that first popularize a genre really matter more than the game that was technically the first but was a bad game.

Such a narrow-minded phrase. And historically, factually wrong.

Videogames existed before Pong, be it on Mainframes like Tennis For Two (which predates Pong by 14 years!) or the Arcade cabinet Computer Space (which came out a year before Pong and was a derivative of Spacewar!, which came out 10 years earlier), Videogaming was well on it's way, if if Pong never had existed.

By the way: Spacewar! => First Shooter.

I'm going to ignore all of the factual errors in your first post to point out that your arguments in these two posts contradict themselves.  The first post argues how popular Wolfenstein 3D is, and the second post argues that popularity doesn't matter.  Were you actually trying to make a point and if so what is it?



The_Liquid_Laser said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Sorry, what?

Wolfenstein had countless imitators. Here's a small, non-exhaustive list of Wolfenstein clones that came out before Doom:

  • Corridor 7
  • Blake Stone
  • Ken's Labyrinth
  • Super 3D Noah's Ark
  • Nitemare 3D
  • Catacomb Abyss
  • Operation: Body Count
  • Shadow Caster
  • Rise of the Triad
  • Spear of Destiny (Basically Wolfenstein 3D 2)

And it's no wonder it had so many imitators considering it's sales and reach. Wolfenstein sold about 150.000 registered copies plus over 1M shareware versions. Anything that sold into the 6 digits on PC was a smash hit at the time. The secret of Monkey Island, one of the best-selling PC games of the time, barely sold twice as much as Wolfenstein - and unlike Wolfenstein, had retail copies outside the US where the shareware model was very difficult.

I mean, there's a reason why Wolfenstein clone was a common term before DOOM came out, at which point it became a DOOM-like (or Doom clone. Depending on the region and country, some used clone while others used -like), and then after Duke Nukem 3D a Duke-like, and than came the Quake-like until it got settled into the term FPS (yes, it took that long for the term FPS to take off and onlyr eally settled in around the time of release of Half-Life!).

One reason why there were quite a few; but not "tons" of imitators: DOOM came out just 18 months later, by the time many of the games that got influenced by Wolfenstein actually came out, the genre was already called DOOM-like

And even before Wolfenstein, there had been some games that would be considered FPS nowadays. Catacomb 3D or Hovertank 3D, anyone? But those didn't make nearly the push for the genre that Wolfenstein did

Bolded: By that assessment, we would only have FPS, RPG, Action-adventure, beat'em up and Jump'n run (plus maybe the loosely-defined arcade genre), because everything else wouldn't have reached the threshold to become a genre by your metric. RTS? Action-RPG? Racing? Simulations? Sandbox? Fighting games? None of those had enough releases in a year or two to beat even Wolfenstein and it's clones, which by your own account wasn't enough to become a genre. So why ever would those ever have become a genre but Wolfenstein 3D is denied that honor despite inspiring more clones on it's own?

Bofferbrauer2 said:

Such a narrow-minded phrase. And historically, factually wrong.

Videogames existed before Pong, be it on Mainframes like Tennis For Two (which predates Pong by 14 years!) or the Arcade cabinet Computer Space (which came out a year before Pong and was a derivative of Spacewar!, which came out 10 years earlier), Videogaming was well on it's way, if if Pong never had existed.

By the way: Spacewar! => First Shooter.

I'm going to ignore all of the factual errors in your first post to point out that your arguments in these two posts contradict themselves.  The first post argues how popular Wolfenstein 3D is, and the second post argues that popularity doesn't matter.  Were you actually trying to make a point and if so what is it?

Don't ignore the factual errors if you find any, please post them, as I'm curious myself what I got wrong.

I wasn't contradicting myself, both were about 2 different things altogether - hence why they were in 2 different posts.

In the first post, I was just pointing out that Wolfenstein would even by your theory that popularity matters more to start a genre than defining it in the first place that Wolfenstein even then would have been the one to "invent" the FPS genre, as it was really popular when it released. The popularity didn't come with Doom, it was already there with Wolfenstein, Doom "merely" brought it to the next level.

In the second one, you're saying that we wouldn't be playing any video games today if it weren't for Pong. I just pointed out that Video Games existed before Pong, that Arcade machines existed before Pong and that it was inevitable that we would be playing videogames today, Pong or no Pong. It may have taken longer to take off, but at worst in the late 70's it would have taken off with hits like Asteroids! and Space Invaders.

Also, Personal Computers, and uses of recreation would have developed either way. So while the arcade games (and by extension videogame consoles) may have developed differently, computer gaming wouldn't have been much influenced by this change, as the games played on those were mostly different. With the Apple ][, TRS-80 (both 1977), TI-99 and Atari 400/800 (both 1979), computer gaming started in the 70's, too. Personal Computers started as business machines but quickly gaming became a thing on those machines despite not designed for this - and this design difference also forced a bit the fact that games on computers were very different to those on early consoles with almost no overlap. But while different, it's still video gaming, so your assertion that without Pong we wouldn't be playing videogames today is simply wrong.



Salnax said:
thatmediaguy150 said:

According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Jumping Flash invented the 3D platformer.

Antarctic Adventure was a 1983 game from Konami where you played as a character in a 3D environment that ran and jumped over obstacles. Same with 1987's 3D Worldrunner. Sure, these games were sprite-based rather than polygonal, but is that really what makes a 3D platformer? And even if those didn't count, Alpha Waves came out in 1990 on Amiga. It wasn't necessarily a good game, but it meets the criteria.

I had Alpha Waves on my 286, and really no idea what I was supposed to do.

Speaking of which, the game becomes impossible to run natively on a 486 or faster because the game clock is tied to the CPU clock and modern PCs are so fast that it's impossible to finish the game in the allotted time because the timer clocks down wayyy too fast.



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I still pikmin is it's own genre. Nothing like it.



The Vampire survivors clones or Bullet heavens/reverse bullet hel genre is popping off now. I particularly like Brotato, NERD Survivors and Army of Ruin but I hear Halls of torment, deep rock galactic survivors and 20 minutes til dawn are also up there, some say Halls of Torment is the best but it all started with Vampire survivors I do believe.



LegitHyperbole said:

The Vampire survivors clones or Bullet heavens/reverse bullet hel genre is popping off now. I particularly like Brotato, NERD Survivors and Army of Ruin but I hear Halls of torment, deep rock galactic survivors and 20 minutes til dawn are also up there, some say Halls of Torment is the best but it all started with Vampire survivors I do believe.

Go play CAVE games. Like a DoDonpachi. Anything from CAVE really. Some of their games took years to beat. One of the DoDonpachi games took 12 years before someone finally cleared it. Mushihimesama Futari is madness with bullets. Tho the first Bullet Hell game is credited to the fantastic Batsugun in 1993 from Toaplan who were one of the best of their era.  Truxton. Hellfire. Zero Wing. (All your base are belong to us) and a lot more. When they closed many of the staff formed CAVE and carved out a reputation as being one of the best to ever do it. They ran with the idea of bullet hell. Eventually making possibly the best game in the bullet hell genre. DoDonPachi Blissful Death Re:Incarnation

Last edited by Leynos - on 28 October 2024

Bite my shiny metal cockpit!

Leynos said:
LegitHyperbole said:

The Vampire survivors clones or Bullet heavens/reverse bullet hel genre is popping off now. I particularly like Brotato, NERD Survivors and Army of Ruin but I hear Halls of torment, deep rock galactic survivors and 20 minutes til dawn are also up there, some say Halls of Torment is the best but it all started with Vampire survivors I do believe.

Go play CAVE games. Like a DoDonpachi. Anything from CAVE really. Some of their games took years to beat. One of the DoDonpachi games took 12 years before someone finally cleared it. Mushihimesama Futari is madness with bullets. Tho the first Bullet Hell game is credited to the fantastic Batsugun in 1993 from Toaplan who were one of the best of their era.  Truxton. Hellfire. Zero Wing. (All your base are belong to us) and a lot more. When they closed many of the staff formed CAVE and carved out a reputation as being one of the best to ever do it. They ran with the idea of bullet hell. Eventually making possibly the best game in the bullet hell genre. DoDonPachi Blissful Death Re:Incarnation

I'm not sure I'll be able to go back to bullet hell games after bullet heaven, I tried Nex Machina again recently and it all felt so wrong, lol. 



LegitHyperbole said:
Leynos said:

Go play CAVE games. Like a DoDonpachi. Anything from CAVE really. Some of their games took years to beat. One of the DoDonpachi games took 12 years before someone finally cleared it. Mushihimesama Futari is madness with bullets. Tho the first Bullet Hell game is credited to the fantastic Batsugun in 1993 from Toaplan who were one of the best of their era.  Truxton. Hellfire. Zero Wing. (All your base are belong to us) and a lot more. When they closed many of the staff formed CAVE and carved out a reputation as being one of the best to ever do it. They ran with the idea of bullet hell. Eventually making possibly the best game in the bullet hell genre. DoDonPachi Blissful Death Re:Incarnation

I'm not sure I'll be able to go back to bullet hell games after bullet heaven, I tried Nex Machina again recently and it all felt so wrong, lol. 

Nex Machina is possibly the best Twin Stick Shooter ever made. It's not a bullet hell game tho, some sections get crazy. It's a twin-stick and a tribute game to Robotron 2084. Eugene Jarvis even consulted on it.



Bite my shiny metal cockpit!