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Forums - Politics Discussion - EU and UK politics [OT]

 

The UK rioters are made up of...

The Far right 13 54.17%
 
Some Far right, mostly normal people. 2 8.33%
 
Normal everyday working class people 6 25.00%
 
A mix of both 3 12.50%
 
Total:24
Tico said:
LegitHyperbole said:

Also, I wanted to discuss with someone, would the EU be able to keep our health public had NATO and our defence through it wasn''t there anymore? Do you think if we had to pay for defence in a Cold War like scenario would we still be able to exercise so much of our social policies like free health care?

“Free” healthcare is financed in two ways:
A) by raising taxes
B) by waiting lists (where you are not treated)
C) A + B

Ah, ya know what I meant. Games aren't free on subscription either but we all use the term. And no, I can get very sick right now and need to call an ambulance and go to the ER and only have to pay 100 euro if I don't have a medical card (incredibly cheap conpared to a bill in America) or I can go and spend nothing if I have a medical card. My prescriptions cost 30 euro a month, in America they'd cost 5 times that or I can get them for about 1.50 per product if I use a medical card. I think this is the proper way to handle health care. 

In the UK everything is free by default which I think adds to the time waiting and stress on the system. The hybrid way is the way to go, hands down. It's not technically free but it's close enough to it and allows for less stress on the system for the most unfortunate. 



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Lukas85 said:

Normal everyday working people tired of africans invading their country and killing and raping their woman. The far right doesnt exist kiddies, just in you delusional leftist worldview.

We are European sir, we do not fall for bait. Kindly take your hatred and two sided world view, elsewhere. 🙂 We Europeans have multiple partys and many, many more nuanced world views than left or right. 

Last edited by LegitHyperbole - on 07 August 2024

From the little that I've read about these riots, it looks like the typical scenario where the far-right is able to gain traction by getting economically frustrated people on board. Immigrants are the usual scapegoat, because it's the easiest sell. The far-right's objective is a white ethnostate and regular people are being mobilized to rally against immigration by making them believe that that would fix the regular people's problems.

But it isn't the immigrants that are extracting the wealth of the common folk, like usual it's the rich people who keep exploiting all the systems to grow their wealth. These rich people can be politicians who push for favorable laws for the rich (whom they themselves belong to), rich people who lobby hard to get politicians to do the things they want or rich people who own media companies to influence public opinion. The latter preferably run anti-immigration messages, because again, that's the easiest sell.

The solution here is to tax the rich harder and redistribute the wealth. But the inherent problem of a capitalistic world is that wealth can buy power, so implementing such a blatantly easy solution is actually very, very hard.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV will outsell Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I was wrong.

Tober said:
LegitHyperbole said:

Also, I wanted to discuss with someone, would the EU be able to keep our health public had NATO and our defence through it wasn''t there anymore? Do you think if we had to pay for defence in a Cold War like scenario would we still be able to exercise so much of our social policies like free health care?

Oh this is an interesting discussion point, because it can be looked at in so many different ways.

The obvious one is that the EU is not really great at efficient spending. No government is really, but the EU takes the cake. There is a lot to be said with more efficient spending that we could have a independent NATO defense budget, while maintain social security policies that we have today. Is this likely to happen though? Probably not.

Another consideration is that the EU does not really have a defense budget. It's the separate countries and they all have separate priorities. Take France, it got a surprising amount of oversees territories and much of it's defense budget is focused on that.

The elephant in the room is....what for? Obviously the discussion is relevant because Russia invaded Ukraine. But is this because Biden blabbermouthed that Ukraine could become NATO, or that Putin want to create an even bigger Russia empire.

I don't know. Seems Russia is already pretty big and they don't want NATO at 500km from Moscow.

In other words, what is the Russian threat to let's say my home country of the Netherlands really? My opinion. Pretty low.

Yes. We have no defence budget or at least nothing as large as the US or China, not even close even if you round up every country together. My biggest fear of a Trump presidency and how it will effect Europe is if he pulls out of NATO, we are left weak and with essentially no help, we'd have to build military might from near the ground up and this will effect our economies greatly and also effect our ability to have public health care. It'll never happen of course because he wouldn't want China to act as Europe's new bigger sibling. At least I hope. 



Tax the rich is always an interesting position. What is rich? From a selfish point, if I already pay more in taxes then most people make, why should I pay more? When I was fresh out of school money was super tight because I went without to ensure I saved at least 15% of my net. Now that I have investments people want to tax me more.

Not sure how any of that makes sense to me. But I suppose it is easier to spend other people's money.

I always have mixed feelings because I have more wealth than most, but I've always had smaller houses, cheaper cars, etc comparative to my peers... solution, tax me more?  

I think, at least in the US, a consumption tax makes sense. 10% federal sales on all non food purchases.

Also I think getting rid of credits and deductions makes more sense than raising taxes.

Edit

I suppose my issue with raising taxes is the uber wealthy have a team of lawyers and accountants that will just loophole and defer owed payments.  So raising taxes ends up on the back of high middle class and low high class.  Simplify the tax code and get rid of loopholes.  

And make Little Red Hen mandatory reading in secondary and at Uni.  

Edit 2

The other issue, at least in the States, is the gap between the top 5%, 1% and 0.1%.  Sure I am in the top 5% but I have a fraction of what the top 1% and the top 0.1% make more a month than I do a year. 

I'm not calling anyone out in particular, but blanket statements calling for taxing the "rich" makes me wonder what is rich.  

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 07 August 2024

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LegitHyperbole said:
Tober said:

Oh this is an interesting discussion point, because it can be looked at in so many different ways.

The obvious one is that the EU is not really great at efficient spending. No government is really, but the EU takes the cake. There is a lot to be said with more efficient spending that we could have a independent NATO defense budget, while maintain social security policies that we have today. Is this likely to happen though? Probably not.

Another consideration is that the EU does not really have a defense budget. It's the separate countries and they all have separate priorities. Take France, it got a surprising amount of oversees territories and much of it's defense budget is focused on that.

The elephant in the room is....what for? Obviously the discussion is relevant because Russia invaded Ukraine. But is this because Biden blabbermouthed that Ukraine could become NATO, or that Putin want to create an even bigger Russia empire.

I don't know. Seems Russia is already pretty big and they don't want NATO at 500km from Moscow.

In other words, what is the Russian threat to let's say my home country of the Netherlands really? My opinion. Pretty low.

Yes. We have no defence budget or at least nothing as large as the US or China, not even close even if you round up every country together. My biggest fear of a Trump presidency and how it will effect Europe is if he pulls out of NATO, we are left weak and with essentially no help, we'd have to build military might from near the ground up and this will effect our economies greatly and also effect our ability to have public health care. It'll never happen of course because he wouldn't want China to act as Europe's new bigger sibling. At least I hope. 

I think you are correct. The US will not pull out of NATO, because in the end it also helps them with maintaining or expanding their influence in the world. Plus the US weapon industry wants markets to serve. I think Trump big mouth is simply a negotiation strategy to push EU countries to spend more on defense a.k.a. spend more on US weaponry.



Chrkeller said:

Tax the rich is always an interesting position. What is rich? From a selfish point, if I already pay more in taxes then most people make, why should I pay more? When I was fresh out of school money was super tight because I went without to ensure I saved at least 15% of my net. Now that I have investments people want to tax me more.

Not sure how any of that makes sense to me. But I suppose it is easier to spend other people's money.

I always have mixed feelings because I have more wealth than most, but I've always had smaller houses, cheaper cars, etc comparative to my peers... solution, tax me more?  

I think, at least in the US, a consumption tax makes sense. 10% federal sales on all non food purchases.

Also I think getting rid of credits and deductions makes more sense than raising taxes.

Edit

I suppose my issue with raising taxes is the uber wealthy have a team of lawyers and accountants that will just loophole and defer owed payments.  So raising taxes ends up on the back of high middle class and low high class.  Simplify the tax code and get rid of loopholes.  

And make Little Red Hen mandatory reading in secondary and at Uni.  

Edit 2

The other issue, at least in the States, is the gap between the top 5%, 1% and 0.1%.  Sure I am in the top 5% but I have a fraction of what the top 1% and the top 0.1% make more a month than I do a year. 

I'm not calling anyone out in particular, but blanket statements calling for taxing the "rich" makes me wonder what is rich.  

The super rich will always have options. Raise taxes and they just go to places where they are not taxed (as much). In the end higher tax, will always foot the bill to the (double/triple) middle class incomes. People that have money, but cannot just pack up and leave as easily or at all.



Tober said:
Chrkeller said:

Tax the rich is always an interesting position. What is rich? From a selfish point, if I already pay more in taxes then most people make, why should I pay more? When I was fresh out of school money was super tight because I went without to ensure I saved at least 15% of my net. Now that I have investments people want to tax me more.

Not sure how any of that makes sense to me. But I suppose it is easier to spend other people's money.

I always have mixed feelings because I have more wealth than most, but I've always had smaller houses, cheaper cars, etc comparative to my peers... solution, tax me more?  

I think, at least in the US, a consumption tax makes sense. 10% federal sales on all non food purchases.

Also I think getting rid of credits and deductions makes more sense than raising taxes.

Edit

I suppose my issue with raising taxes is the uber wealthy have a team of lawyers and accountants that will just loophole and defer owed payments.  So raising taxes ends up on the back of high middle class and low high class.  Simplify the tax code and get rid of loopholes.  

And make Little Red Hen mandatory reading in secondary and at Uni.  

Edit 2

The other issue, at least in the States, is the gap between the top 5%, 1% and 0.1%.  Sure I am in the top 5% but I have a fraction of what the top 1% and the top 0.1% make more a month than I do a year. 

I'm not calling anyone out in particular, but blanket statements calling for taxing the "rich" makes me wonder what is rich.  

The super rich will always have options. Raise taxes and they just go to places where they are not taxed (as much). In the end higher tax, will always foot the bill to the (double/triple) middle class incomes. People that have money, but cannot just pack up and leave as easily or at all.

Agreed.  Which is my concern with the left wanting to raise taxes.  It will hit hardworking Americans.  

Consumption tax makes the most sense.  Put a 10% federal sales taxes on that 10k Gucci purse and 30k Rolex watch.  



Here is another topic in this threat. Should EU Monarchs be above the law?

The Netherlands for most of it's existence was a Republic, with the different regions (we call them provinces) having a larger autonomy.

This ended after the Napoleon wars. The French revolutionaries had just occupied the Netherlands for 20 years till 1814. It was then that the bigger powers in Europe (England's Monarch, Russia's Czar, Prussia's Emperor) sat together and decided what to do with the low countries. It was decided they would remain independent, but not to a republic any more.

Most of the European Monarchies have family ties, so someone was rounded up and crowned the first King of the Netherlands in 1815: Willem the first. And the Netherlands became a Monarchy to this day.

All good and well and we Dutch like the color Orange and enjoy a nice party to huddle around. No doubt the royal family in this day and age helps to give the Dutch a sense of solidarity. So all good points. Except one.

In our constitution it is written that the Dutch Monarch is above the law. Laws in my opinion should be universal. So if we have Dutch laws they should count for all Dutch people. But alas not for the Dutch King.

This includes tax laws. the Dutch royals do not pay any kind of tax. This included the most disliked tax we have called 'inheritance tax'. Essentially when somebody passes away and leaves their belongings to spouse or siblings. The state wants to have a cut. No problem for the King.

This leaves a sour taste in my mouth about our Royals. It's nothing personal, but I believe Monarchs should not be above the law. For this reason, as long as there is no change in our constitution to address this, I would prefer the Netherlands to be a Republic again.

What about you? Do you live in a Monarchy? If so, are they also above the law? If so, what do you think about that?



Tober said:

Here is another topic in this threat. Should EU Monarchs be above the law?

The Netherlands for most of it's existence was a Republic, with the different regions (we call them provinces) having a larger autonomy.

This ended after the Napoleon wars. The French revolutionaries had just occupied the Netherlands for 20 years till 1814. It was then that the bigger powers in Europe (England's Monarch, Russia's Czar, Prussia's Emperor) sat together and decided what to do with the low countries. It was decided they would remain independent, but not to a republic any more.

Most of the European Monarchies have family ties, so someone was rounded up and crowned the first King of the Netherlands in 1815: Willem the first. And the Netherlands became a Monarchy to this day.

All good and well and we Dutch like the color Orange and enjoy a nice party to huddle around. No doubt the royal family in this day and age helps to give the Dutch a sense of solidarity. So all good points. Except one.

In our constitution it is written that the Dutch Monarch is above the law. Laws in my opinion should be universal. So if we have Dutch laws they should count for all Dutch people. But alas not for the Dutch King.

This includes tax laws. the Dutch royals do not pay any kind of tax. This included the most disliked tax we have called 'inheritance tax'. Essentially when somebody passes away and leaves their belongings to spouse or siblings. The state wants to have a cut. No problem for the King.

This leaves a sour taste in my mouth about our Royals. It's nothing personal, but I believe Monarchs should not be above the law. For this reason, as long as there is no change in our constitution to address this, I would prefer the Netherlands to be a Republic again.

What about you? Do you live in a Monarchy? If so, are they also above the law? If so, what do you think about that?

I have a US biased view, more than likely, but there is no place for a monarchy in modern society.  That should have died over a hundred years ago.