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Forums - Sales Discussion - FF7 Rebirth has reportedly sold half what Remake did in the same timeframe

Chrkeller said:
Soundwave said:

DLSS doesn't change development cost, it's not an AI "developing something". 

If AI can eventually make games, why the fuck would I ever even bother waiting for a developer to make me a game (let alone pay them $70)? I'd just tell the AI to build me the game specifically that I want. It is probably decades away from that, but if it can actually develop games (which would actually reduce cost) that's a zero sum game for the video game industry because people will just start asking the AI to make them games and bypass developers entirely.

Ray Tracing is AI.  So is DLSS.  The whole point is the gpu handles lighting and resolution optimization, not people.

You seem to have a problem with facts.  But I'll leave you to it.  Paper Mario is calling.  

DLSS does. not. reduce. development. cost. 

If it did, the Switch 2 would have a even larger advantage. 

Ray tracing is not AI either buddy, if it was every Hollywood studio would be using that already for their movies to cut down on render time. Real actual ray tracing (as in path tracing) is something that even top end GPUs can't even dream of doing in real time, what they call "ray tracing" in video games is laughably watered down to begin with and even that watered down level of ray tracing cripples GPUs. 

As it relates to Final Fantasy 7 Remake Part III and FF17 ... there's nothing AI is going to do any time in the forseeable future that's magically going to let Square-Enix have like GTA VI graphics for 1/3 the cost. That is a fantasy. 



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Soundwave said:
Chrkeller said:

DLSS is AI....  so there are a bunch of examples.  

Necessity is the mother of invention.  

There is a necessity to reduce development costs, thus invention is coming.

This is how all markets work.  Just look at electric cars, doing things people didn't think were possible 10 years ago.  

DLSS doesn't change development cost, it's not an AI "developing something". 

If AI can eventually make games, why the fuck would I ever even bother waiting for a developer to make me a game (let alone pay them $70)? I'd just tell the AI to build me the game specifically that I want. It is probably decades away from that, but if it can actually develop games (which would actually reduce cost) that's a zero sum game for the video game industry because people will just start asking the AI to make them games and bypass developers entirely.

AI is not going to make Square-Enix's troubles go away any time soon either way. They can't spend that much more on their games than they are now. FF7 Rebirth is already "epic" enough, they can cap it there and make games much more smartly going forward for the next decade using that same base. 

Sure it does.  People don't need to optimise game assets for sharp resolution.  They can just quickly reduce resolution and have AI make it look higher resolution than it is.

RT is AI as well.  Have AI do lighting so less people need to do it.

Lol.  In one breath you talk about how awesome AI is, RT and DLSS but now claim AI doesn't exist.  

Time for paper mario.



Chrkeller said:
Soundwave said:

DLSS doesn't change development cost, it's not an AI "developing something". 

If AI can eventually make games, why the fuck would I ever even bother waiting for a developer to make me a game (let alone pay them $70)? I'd just tell the AI to build me the game specifically that I want. It is probably decades away from that, but if it can actually develop games (which would actually reduce cost) that's a zero sum game for the video game industry because people will just start asking the AI to make them games and bypass developers entirely.

AI is not going to make Square-Enix's troubles go away any time soon either way. They can't spend that much more on their games than they are now. FF7 Rebirth is already "epic" enough, they can cap it there and make games much more smartly going forward for the next decade using that same base. 

Sure it does.  People don't need to optimise game assets for sharp resolution.  They can just quickly reduce resolution and have AI make it look higher resolution than it is.

RT is AI as well.  Have AI do lighting so less people need to do it.

Lol.  In one breath you talk about how awesome AI is, RT and DLSS but now claim AI doesn't exist.  

Time for paper mario.

Actually I don't even think that's how DLSS works. You still need high res assets, you can't just use low res assets and have DLSS make you a high res image, it needs to know what the high resolution image looks like to output an image that looks similar. 

You're out of your element on this one, AI assisted ray tracing is not even in its infancy right now and I think you don't have much of a clue about what ray/path tracing actually is to begin with. 

For Final Fantasy none of these things are really relevant to their development costs today or even 2-3 years from now. There's no magic AI button coming that's going to let them make a FF game that looks 2x as good as FF7 Rebirth for less money or the same money. That's ridiculous and it's not happening. 

If they want to go higher in graphics they're going to have spend a lot more, just like Sony/Insomniac had to when going from Spider-Man Miles Morales to Spider-Man 2 (which honestly I don't think even that looks like a proper full generation leap). 

And that's a ridiculous ask for a company who's sales are going down, not up. 



Soundwave said:
Chrkeller said:

Sure it does.  People don't need to optimise game assets for sharp resolution.  They can just quickly reduce resolution and have AI make it look higher resolution than it is.

RT is AI as well.  Have AI do lighting so less people need to do it.

Lol.  In one breath you talk about how awesome AI is, RT and DLSS but now claim AI doesn't exist.  

Time for paper mario.

Actually I don't even think that's how DLSS works. You still need high res assets, you can't just use low res assets and have DLSS make you a high res image, it needs to know what the high resolution image looks like to output an image that looks similar. 

You're out of your element on this one, AI assisted ray tracing is not even in its infancy right now and I think you don't have much of a clue about what ray/path tracing actually is to begin with. 

For Final Fantasy none of these things are really relevant to their development costs today or even 2-3 years from now. There's no magic AI button coming that's going to let them make a FF game that looks 2x as good as FF7 Rebirth for less money or the same money. That's ridiculous and it's not happening. 

If they want to go higher in graphics they're going to have spend a lot more, just like Sony/Insomniac had to when going from Spider-Man Miles Morales to Spider-Man 2 (which honestly I don't think even that looks like a proper full generation leap). 

NVIDIA DLSS (Deep Learning Super Sampling) is a neural graphics technology that multiplies performance using AI to create entirely new frames and display higher resolution through image reconstruction—all while delivering best-in-class image quality and responsiveness.

take it up with NVIDIA....  it is AI, full stop.



Chrkeller said:
Soundwave said:

Actually I don't even think that's how DLSS works. You still need high res assets, you can't just use low res assets and have DLSS make you a high res image, it needs to know what the high resolution image looks like to output an image that looks similar. 

You're out of your element on this one, AI assisted ray tracing is not even in its infancy right now and I think you don't have much of a clue about what ray/path tracing actually is to begin with. 

For Final Fantasy none of these things are really relevant to their development costs today or even 2-3 years from now. There's no magic AI button coming that's going to let them make a FF game that looks 2x as good as FF7 Rebirth for less money or the same money. That's ridiculous and it's not happening. 

If they want to go higher in graphics they're going to have spend a lot more, just like Sony/Insomniac had to when going from Spider-Man Miles Morales to Spider-Man 2 (which honestly I don't think even that looks like a proper full generation leap). 

NVIDIA DLSS (Deep Learning Super Sampling) is a neural graphics technology that multiplies performance using AI to create entirely new frames and display higher resolution through image reconstruction—all while delivering best-in-class image quality and responsiveness.

take it up with NVIDIA....  it is AI, full stop.

I know it's AI, it's not AI development as in something that reduces development cost so you have no point. You can't use 640x480 textures and have the DLSS magically give you 4K textures in the final image. Otherwise DLSS games would be shipping now with like GameCube era textures, they obviously do not do that. That would be great if it actually functioned that way because the Switch 2 would have a monstrous advantage then.



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Soundwave said:
Chrkeller said:

NVIDIA DLSS (Deep Learning Super Sampling) is a neural graphics technology that multiplies performance using AI to create entirely new frames and display higher resolution through image reconstruction—all while delivering best-in-class image quality and responsiveness.

take it up with NVIDIA....  it is AI, full stop.

I know it's AI, it's not AI development as in something that reduces development cost so you have no point. You can't use 640x480 textures and have the DLSS magically give you 4K textures in the final image. Otherwise DLSS games would be shipping now with like GameCube era textures, they obviously do not do that. That would be great if it actually functioned that way because the Switch 2 would have a monstrous advantage then. 

Correct.  So let us say I want my game at 1080p, but the system can't handle it.  So I hire a team to redo the texture/assets in order for me to hit my target resolution.  Or I don't hire a team, keep the assets the same, and have AI get me "1080p."  

Dude, it isn't that complicated.  It really isn't.  

Instead of having a team handling detailed lighting, I use RT AI to produce superb lighting via RT cores.  

AI is already here.  AI is already having an impact.  AI will continue to assist in development.  Voice acting AI is being development.  NPC AI creation is being development.  In 5 years, it will be leveraged all over the industry.  

Thinking otherwise shows a disconnect from reality.  

But I really would prefer to play paper mario than argue with someone who is disconnected to the point where he thinks graphics will be capped.  That is one of the silliest positions I have ever heard.  



Chrkeller said:
Soundwave said:

I know it's AI, it's not AI development as in something that reduces development cost so you have no point. You can't use 640x480 textures and have the DLSS magically give you 4K textures in the final image. Otherwise DLSS games would be shipping now with like GameCube era textures, they obviously do not do that. That would be great if it actually functioned that way because the Switch 2 would have a monstrous advantage then. 

Correct.  So let us say I want my game at 1080p, but the system can't handle it.  So I hire a team to redo the texture/assets in order for me to hit my target resolution.  Or I don't hire a team, keep the assets the same, and have AI get me "1080p."  

Dude, it isn't that complicated.  It really isn't.  

Instead of having a team handling detailed lighting, I use RT AI to produce superb lighting via RT cores.  

AI is already here.  AI is already having an impact.  AI will continue to assist in development.  Voice acting AI is being development.  NPC AI creation is being development.  In 5 years, it will be leveraged all over the industry.  

Thinking otherwise shows a disconnect from reality.  

But I really would prefer to play paper mario than argue with someone who is disconnected to the point where he thinks graphics will be capped.  That is one of the silliest positions I have ever heard.  

For games that don't have big sales, they're not going to be having large scale graphics leaps in the way that they traditionally did in the past. If you want to call that a "cap" sure whatever. 

DLSS does not meaningfully reduce development time, you still need the same artists to make the textures and other elements on the screen. AI lighting is something that could 5 years away, 10 years away. If it could function that way right now why aren't Hollywood studios using it for CGI today? You think they don't want to save money? 

Lets say Square bumped FF17 graphics to Spider-Man 2 level (incurring a $300 million dollar budget). Does anyone think that they're going to sell 2x more games doing that? Even 50% more? 

Good. Fucking. Luck. With. That. That's a good way for the new president to get himself fired in a few years if the game doesn't hit the higher sales targets. 

I doubt there's really a lot of people playing FF16 or Rebirth saying "y'know I would buy this, but I really need double the graphics to enjoy this". Those games are sufficently "epic" enough, going further and further and increasing your costs through the roof is just stupid at this point. The only Final Fantasy game they have making any real money right now is FF14 and that's the worst looking game of their lineup. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 23 May 2024

Dude needs to stop with Nintendo taking over the world BS. Pc will do that. Switch 2 will probably do 90-100 million. Then if Nintendo wants to push graphics especially with the amount of content they gave in there games the games will take forever. It's been been like 4 years of the switch missing big thirdparty games so anyone who wanted those already moved on and bought them on pc, ps5 or Xbox, the fact is the only way Nintendo can grow is in the near future is to start releasing on pc cause it's gonna be downhill from here.



zeldaring said:

Dude needs to stop with Nintendo taking over the world BS. Pc will do that. Switch 2 will probably do 90-100 million. Then if Nintendo wants to push graphics especially with the amount of content they gave in there games the games will take forever. It's been been like 4 years of the switch missing big thirdparty games so anyone who wanted those already moved on and bought them on pc, ps5 or Xbox, the fact is the only way Nintendo can grow is in the near future is to start releasing on pc cause it's gonna be downhill from here.

Only going to top the PS2's sales record, lol, and oh 2nd biggest movie in 2023 too (most profitable too), looks to me like they're taking over Hollywood too. They are taking over the world as it relates to gaming properties anyway. If any other game company is doing that, you'd have to show me because it doesn't look like it to me.

PC is neither here nor there for Nintendo, Nintendo gives no shits about the PC, if it cannibalizes the Playstation and XBox and destroys Sony's leverage to money hat anything by turning every 3rd party into a port whore, that's just fine and dandy for Nintendo because they benefit from that too. 

Go ahead Sony, port even more of your games to PC, lets see where the Playstation is 7-8 years down the line, it certainly didn't help grow XBox sales. 

Last edited by Soundwave - on 23 May 2024

I'm old enough to remember how confident Sony fans were about the ps3, coming off the ps2's success.