Abortion would be something you do with your body. 

Debt forgiveness is effectively a social construct, since money is something we have invented. 

Extremism is relative, so it's subjective. 

But I would say if you're placing something that will literally kill people on the same level as student debt forgiveness, that your priorities are way out of order.  

Ok, it’s not a fact, it’s common sense. Anybody who tries to claim that forgiving student debt is anywhere in the realm of stripping women of rights or trying to overthrow democracy can’t be taken seriously.

Yes you did, these are direct quotes from your last few posts:

“ I mean each side trying to out extreme each other is beyond broken.”-this quote is directly saying the left is trying to be more extreme than the right and vice versa.

” Both parties are extreme and neither are focused on the middle class, which is the point.”-this is a typical “both sides” argument which doesn’t directly say they are the same but implies they are similar.

You claim I don’t read well but you didn’t even bother to go back and read what you previously said.

It’s not really a can of worms, you change from Electoral College to national popular vote and now you have to be appealing to a majority of Americans instead of having slightly more swing voters in a handful of competitive states. Gore had over 500k more votes but lost because of ~500 votes in a single state. Hilary had almost 3 million more votes but lost because of ~80k votes in 3 states. Biden had over 7 million more votes and only won because of ~80k votes in 4 states. Same goes for eliminating the Senate filibuster and eliminating partisan gerrymandering for the House. You put these things in place and it’s much harder for the party with a minority of votes to win or block the majority from enacting their policies.

Also, once again you ignore that big list of pro-middle class things Democrats passed or attempted to pass in the last few years.

Congrats!  You learned the difference between fact and opinion.

And I never said debt forgiveness was more extreme than abortion ban.  That is just a lie on your part. 

In fact what I said included:

"For the record I tend to agree with this particular opinion"

So yeah, you don't read very well.

Edit

And Electoral college is a can of worms.  If the system changes so does campaigning and voting behavior.  The linear extrapolation is foolish.  That isn't how science, human behavior and math work.  

I think you need to go back and reread our conversation from the start, here are the direct quotes in the back and forth about the left being extreme.

You: I mean each side trying to out extreme each other is beyond broken.

Me: It’s a false equivalence to pretend the current left & right are equally extreme.

You: People are entitled to think debt forgiveness, etc are extreme.

And honestly I think the overall argument is weak.  Being less extreme doesn't make one not extreme.  

Both parties are extreme and neither are focused on the middle class, which is the point.

Me: Debt forgiveness is not anywhere close to banning abortion or trying to overturn an election/incite an insurrection. If student debt forgiveness is your shining example of left wing extremism then you’re kind of proving my point.

My argument isn’t that one is less extreme, it’s that one has become extreme while the other has shifted from left of center to center left.

You: Extreme is going to viewed based on personal standards, which varies from person to person

Also, since you can't read very well, I didn't say I thought the left was as extreme.

Me: Anybody who tries to claim that forgiving student debt is anywhere in the realm of stripping women of rights or trying to overthrow democracy can’t be taken seriously.

you: And I never said debt forgiveness was more extreme than abortion ban.  That is just a lie on your part.

You absolutely did claim/imply that they are equally extreme in your first statement, I also never said you claimed debt forgiveness was as extreme as abortion, I said if that’s your best example then you are proving my point & that people who believe that can’t be taken seriously.

Also, it’s been a few posts now of you ignoring the pretty sizable list of things democrats passed/tried to pass that the middle class benefit from.

Extreme is an opinion, thus I can't prove which is more extreme, that is the point that took you too long to understand.  I used debt forgiveness as an example because the courts have ruled against the administration and Biden found a work around.  Personally I find the executive branch working around the court of law rather extreme.

Is that as extreme as abortion, I don't think so.  But I also have daughters, which is going to influence my opinion.  But others may find it more extreme than abortion.

Extreme is relative and both sides are extreme to large sectors of the populous.

Yeah, I ignored the list, for two reasons.  I couldn't get past you claiming opinion as fact and I certainly wasn't going to argue with someone who didn't know the difference.  The second reason is because we already discussed that messaging is the problem.  Liberals love talking about niche demographics...  

Look at it this way....  your claim is MAGA is extreme and liberals aren't....  yet Biden is losing in the polls....  you keep viewing things from your perspective, instead of the average American.  Clearly the average American sees things differently than you do.  Just saying.  

Rol said:

"As for the end of Trump's reign, it's unfortunately not so simple. Trump's first tenure was one hell of a mess as he and his yes-man went into the presidency very unprepared. But this time around there is a plan and there's already the advantage of a supreme court stacked in favor of MAGA. The plan includes getting rid of RRs in federal institutions to replace them with MRs. This means there's a high chance that RRs will be done for good by 2029.

And do tell why you voted Al Gore."

-------------------------------------

To reply to your last post Rol:

Who will be the face of the MRs when Trump's political career comes to an end? Will it be Melania, Eric, Don Jr, Ivanka, Barron, or someone else?

------------------------------------

Here's why I proudly voted for Al Gore in the 2000 US Presidential election:

I agreed with his space policy.  What, you say?

-

Since I first saw the Space Shuttle, I have been a huge fan of NASA and the US space program in its entirety.

So, when Gore was VP, in July 1996, he announced the winner of the X-33 competition (a prototype vehicle to replace the shuttle) to Lockheed Martin. Unfortunately, the X-33 ran into serious development problems and was on its death bed by Nov. 2000.

So, knowing how the X-33 was Al Gore's baby and that Bush would kill it if he won, I voted for Al.

One month after being sworn into office, the Bush administration killed the X-33

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_X-33#Cancellation

Extreme does have a definition

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/extreme

“Farthest from the center or middle”, “exceeding the bounds of moderation”

By that definition you can figure out what is more extreme by level of support which lines up with your statement about the average American’s views and it’s not that hard to find polling on these topics.

Student Debt Forgiveness

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/03/26/canceling-student-loan-debt-a-key-issue-ahead-of-election-survey.html

March 2024-50% support partial or complete debt forgiveness

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/samuels-student-debt-forgiveness-0303/

Feb 2023-62% say at least some debt should be forgiven

another Feb 2023 poll-53% somewhat or strongly support Biden’s student debt plan

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/shows/meetthepress/blog/rcna92006

June 2023-47% supported Biden’s student debt plan

Abortion

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/#:~:text=Among%20moderate%20and%20liberal%20Republicans,and%20moderate%20Democrats%20(76%25).

April 2024-63% say abortion should be legal in all or most cases

https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/poll-finding/kff-health-tracking-poll-march-2024-abortion-in-the-2024-election-and-beyond/

March 2024-67% support a law guaranteeing a federal right to abortion

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/abortion-poll-quiz-2024/

Feb 2024-71% say abortion should be legal in all or most cases

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/01/politics/cnn-poll-abortion-laws

May 2024-65% oppose the Dobbs ruling

Insurrection

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/jan-6-opinion-poll-republican-disapproval-wanes-2024-01-06/

Jan 2024-78% disapprove of J6 rioters, 70% believe US democracy is threatened

https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2024/1/10/voters-are-concerned-about-a-repeat-of-the-january-6-insurrection-and-other-threats-to-democracy

Jan 2024-74% disapprove of inciting violence and threatening democracy

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/polls-show-americans-are-divided-on-the-significance-of-january-6/

Dec 2022-64% Believe Trump is somewhat or very responsible for J6

~1/2 of people support student debt relief, it’s a divisive topic but not extreme

~2/3 of people support Roe & believe abortion should be protected at the federal level, abortion bans are extreme.

~3/4 of people disapprove of J6 rioters, believe it was a threat to democracy and ~2/3 of people believe Trump is at least partially responsible.

As for ignoring the list yet again, your original statement was, “both parties are extreme and neither are focused on the middle class”, you said absolutely nothing about messaging and that list does in fact prove that Democrats are focused on the middle class. Being poor messengers or the average American not paying attention has nothing to do with your statement.

Joe Biden doing poorly in polling doesn’t mean people think Democrats are extreme. The biggest issues people have with Biden are his age & inflation, Senators in swing states outperforming him in polling shows it’s not a Democrat issue but a Biden issue.

Yes, both parties are extreme.  That is my opinion.  Biden being told no by the courts and still pushing forward is extrme.  Extreme is an opinion, though you seem to have forgotten the difference between opinion and fact already.  

And yes, I don't think liberals focus enough on the average person.  I think they focus really well on niche demographics but not the average person.

Fact is Biden is currently losing to a convicted felon who tried to overthrow the government....  I highly doubt the sole reason is "age."  

Your polls show people really are against abortion restrictions and do not support Jan 6th...  who wants to keep abortion to the States?  Trump.  Who drove Jan 6th?  Trump.  Who is winning the polls, especially key swing states?  Trump.

Please tell me you see the flaw in your argument?  

I don’t think you really understand the SC ruling on student loan forgiveness, it ruled that Missouri had standing to sue because its public loan servicer would lose revenue and goes against the major questions doctrine which states there needs to be Congressional authorization for programs of substantial economic significance, therefore, his administration doesn’t have the power to just wipe out student debt across the board.

Since then, Biden has been using & modifying existing programs to eliminate debt for people in certain categories like public-sector workers, people defrauded by for-profit colleges and people who have made payments for a certain amount of years along with fixing errors of past administrations where people were weren’t getting their debt forgiven when they should have.

You’re presenting it like the SC said canceling student debt of any kind is illegal and Biden said “Fuck You!” and is doing it anyway, it’s a lot more nuanced than that.

Again, we weren’t talking about messaging or people’s perceptions, we were talking about things the party actually accomplished. How can you look at that list and say Democrats don’t focus on the middle class? I don’t want some basic “it’s my opinion” answer, I want specifics and examples of how they are ignoring working class Americans and only focused on niche demographics.

Well now I’m going to turn “you don’t read well” back on you because I didn’t say age was the sole reason, I said age & INFLATION are his BIGGEST issues. You somehow skipped over half a list of two things and ignored that I said they are the biggest, not only issues he faces.

Inflation is a massive issue for many voters, I personally think Biden is unfairly blamed for it since many of our peer countries (Canada, UK, Australia, EU) have faced similar results in the aftermath of the pandemic, but the average person does not know or care about that. Prices were lower under Trump and have risen under Biden so therefore he is responsible in the eyes of many voters.

I don’t think there is a flaw in the argument, I think the answer is that many people have contradicting views, don’t pay attention to politics or some are simply dumb. We often see on ballot initiatives where people will vote overwhelmingly for things that the people they elect don’t support. That’s how things like marijuana legalization, abortion access & minimum wage increases have passed in many red states.

Like I said, Democratic Senators in swing states like Arizona, Nevada, Wisconsin, Michigan & Pennsylvania are all polling better than their Republican rivals while Biden is polling worse than Trump which shows that it’s not a “Democrats/liberals” are extreme issue, it’s that Biden himself is very unpopular.

I'm talking about messaging because I think that is the party's biggest flaw.

Briefing Room | The White House

Looking over what messages the White House is sending, there are very few on the first few pages I think the average person actually gives a shit about.  

I think if Biden focused messaging on policies and how it helps the average person, instead of placating niche demographics, I think his polling would improve.

Just my view on it.  I can't measure opinions.  If I could, I would.  

Inflation, sure, it is a sticking point..  but he is losing quite badly to a convicted felon who tried to take over the government....  that speaks volumes about how well Biden is connecting with the average person.  CLEARLY he isn't.  

Edit

I don't think his attacks on Trump is helping either.  Everyone who cares already knows who Trump is.  I still think Biden needs to focus on low violent crime, surging stock market and focus on his activities to battle inflation.  Certainly bring up women's rights constantly.  Keep it simple, only a few key topics when he speaks.