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Forums - Politics Discussion - Biden vs Trump 2024 Political Platforms, Policies and Issues

zorg1000 said:
Chrkeller said:

Maybe.  All I know is our current system isn't sustainable either.  Can't hurt to try something new.  I mean each side trying to out extreme each other is beyond broken.

Yang didn't have a following.  I think if a well know democratic and a well known republican join forces and pre-align the platform....  could work.

It’s a false equivalence to pretend the current left & right are equally extreme. Let’s look at the left-right spectrum

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/ed3cd97c-6782-4389-a5b4-b591e815b506" width="735" height="229">


Over the last few decades, Democrats have shifted from Moderate to Liberal while Republicans have shifted from Conservative to Extreme-Right.

You’re right that the current system is fucked and that’s because of partisan gerrymandering, the filibuster and the electoral college allowing the minority party to beat or block the majority party.

As long as Republicans continue to win or go back and forth with Democrats then they have no incentive to moderate themselves.

The shift away from the middle and becoming more extreme no matter in which direction, is a result of the decline of the middle class. This is true everywhere. Here in Europe as well.



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BFR said:

Rol, you are wrong calling all Republicans as MAGA.  All anyone has to do is look at the House vote on the $61b aid package to Ukraine.  Republicans voted 111-100 against the aid bill, while 210 Democrats voted for it in unison. Clearly, the Republican party is divided into 2 factions today:

Reagan Republicans vs.  MAGA Republicans

I should know, I registered as a proud Republican back on my 18th birthday and have remained one ever since.  However, Reagan is my president and I've never liked Trump.  

Do you remember the Tea Party?  Ever wondered what happened to them? It's easy, they morphed into these MAGA Republicans.

Also, if people don't want to be Demos or Repubs, then they are known as Independent voters, but there's no official Indy party.

However, let's say that the Indy party does emerge with a viable candidate, then consider this:

1. The electoral college has 538 members and it takes 270 electoral votes to win a presidential election.  If there are 3 viable candidates, then none of them is likely to get the 270 votes needed.  In that case, a run-off election between the top 2 vote getters would have to take place.  Is anybody interested in seeing a second presidential election right after the first?

2. The US Senate has 100 members, today it's almost evenly split.  But, it takes 60 "yes" votes to get legislation passed.  Imagine if the Senate was something like 40 Dems, 40 Repubs, and 20 Indy's.  To get to 60 yes votes would be a slug fest, those Indy's could practically hold up any legislation by themselves, imagine the concessions they could force Dems or Repubs to make in order to get their "yes" votes.

Reagan republicans are clearly on the losing side of this battle within their party and it will only get worse for them if Trump wins the election. They'll be forced out and replaced by people who fall in line.

As for your two points at the end, a run-off is the typical procedure if no candidate can attain the majority of votes, and a run-off is held within weeks of the first round; I don't see the problem here, because this is common practice in many European countries. The concessions that would be forced by indies would be less severe than what dems force on repubs and vice versa.

I get the impression that the main problem of many registered republicans is that they feel obliged to vote republican for all of their life. So now the Reagan republicans feel kinda lost in this MAGA era.



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pokoko said:
Torillian said:

What has the left done in this position that compares to trying to overturn an election you lost as far as "threat to Democracy" goes?

Since Democrats have tried to overturn elections and claimed that they were stolen or that Republicans cheated, I'm not sure where you're going with this question.  I'm certain none of them has tried as hard as Trump, of course, but being allowed to settle such claims in the courts is actually part of the democratic process.  Would you really prefer the alternative?  I know there are plenty of countries where protesting an election will get you thrown into prison.  Is that actually an improvement?  The process worked exactly as it should, with almost all of Trump's cases being dismissed from a lack of evidence.  

Personally, I consider the idea of one party having too much power over the media to be much more dangerous, though I do understand that many, many people DO want that ... as long as the party they like is the one in charge.  Now that I think about it, the most common sentiment for everything seems to be "it's okay if my side does it but not the other side," so whatever.  It's just something I'll have to accept.

You said the Left is doing worse thing for democracy than Trump on his best day. I'm figuring his "best day" for this was probably Jan 6th where he implored his VP to not count the electors as required, got a crowd together to march on the capital, when the riot was ongoing his subordinates called congressmembers saying "y'know maybe things are too crazy and we shouldn't certify the results". A sitting president did more than any in our history to try to fuck over the function of our democracy to such a degree that a sizeable portion of our electorate no longer believes in the legitimacy of elections (a cornerstone of any democracy). The idea that this is overshadowed by how the media and higher education are mostly left leaning is baffling to me. Is it based solely on the idea that Trump didn't succeed in any of these attempts so he gets a pass?

Lastly, if the process worked as it should have you wouldn't have most of the republicans no longer believing in elections they lose. The sorest of losers has screwed over our voting system for possibly decades and you're mad that professors are progressive. 



...

2020 didn't quite get to the levels of fuckery of 1876, but it was bad.

2028 on the other hand... might be the worst since the Civil War depending on how things turn out.



 

 

 

 

 

RolStoppable said:
BFR said:

Rol, you are wrong calling all Republicans as MAGA.  All anyone has to do is look at the House vote on the $61b aid package to Ukraine.  Republicans voted 111-100 against the aid bill, while 210 Democrats voted for it in unison. Clearly, the Republican party is divided into 2 factions today:

Reagan Republicans vs.  MAGA Republicans

Reagan republicans are clearly on the losing side of this battle within their party and it will only get worse for them if Trump wins the election. They'll be forced out and replaced by people who fall in line.

As for your two points at the end, a run-off is the typical procedure if no candidate can attain the majority of votes, and a run-off is held within weeks of the first round; I don't see the problem here, because this is common practice in many European countries. The concessions that would be forced by indies would be less severe than what dems force on repubs and vice versa.

I get the impression that the main problem of many registered republicans is that they feel obliged to vote republican for all of their life. So now the Reagan republicans feel kinda lost in this MAGA era.

Based on my research, I found that the US cannot have a runoff election, from Reddit:

"The US already has a system for holding a runoff election for POTUS and it is written into the federal constitution. If the Electoral College does not award the 270 majority to any candidate, the three candidates with the greatest number of EC votes are placed before the House of Representatives. The House then votes by state (1 vote per state) to determine the winner. This was used a few times in the 19th century. I’m not aware of it being used in the 20th century."
As a declared Reagan Republican (RR), I have no fear of a new Trump presidency. He won in 2016 and we weren't forced out then, and we won't be again if he happens to win in 2024. We will outlast him. Which means we will bite our tongues and keep to the shadows until his reign ends.
AND Trump's reign will end soon, and so will the reign of MAGA Republicans (MR). There is no successor to Trump to lead the MR movement.  When his political career is over, so ends MAGA.
So, best case scenario, MAGA and Trump go away this Nov.. Worst case scenario, they both go away in Jan 2029.  Either way, I don't care as long as MAGA dies.
One more thing, Rol, yes, I have been a Republican all my life, that being said, can you tell me why I voted for Al Gore in 2000?
Final thoughts:
Reagan's legacy will outlast and outshine Trump's legacy:
Reagan - won the Cold War and defeated the Soviet Union
Trump - got impeached twice and half built a wall on the Mexico border

I apologize to all for this fucked up formatting, it looks fine before I submit it. WTF ?

Last edited by BFR - 2 days ago

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zorg1000 said:
Chrkeller said:

Maybe.  All I know is our current system isn't sustainable either.  Can't hurt to try something new.  I mean each side trying to out extreme each other is beyond broken.

Yang didn't have a following.  I think if a well know democratic and a well known republican join forces and pre-align the platform....  could work.

It’s a false equivalence to pretend the current left & right are equally extreme. Let’s look at the left-right spectrum

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/ed3cd97c-6782-4389-a5b4-b591e815b506" width="735" height="229">


Over the last few decades, Democrats have shifted from Moderate to Liberal while Republicans have shifted from Conservative to Extreme-Right.

You’re right that the current system is fucked and that’s because of partisan gerrymandering, the filibuster and the electoral college allowing the minority party to beat or block the majority party.

As long as Republicans continue to win or go back and forth with Democrats then they have no incentive to moderate themselves.

I always enjoy when you post an opinion as though it is a fact.  For the record I tend to agree with this particular opinion, but it is still an opinion.  People are entitled to think debt forgiveness, etc are extreme.

And honestly I think the overall argument is weak.  Being less extreme doesn't make one not extreme.  

Both parties are extreme and neither are focused on the middle class, which is the point.

Broad brush but liberals care about the poor and conservatives care about the rich.  Anyone who thinks either party is middle class focused, in my opinion, is wrong.  

And you are right, there is no incentive for either party to change.  Which is why, in an ideal world, a third party emerges and we can vote all those morons out and force a change.  



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BFR said:

Based on my research, I found that the US cannot have a runoff election, from Reddit:

"The US already has a system for holding a runoff election for POTUS and it is written into the federal constitution. If the Electoral College does not award the 270 majority to any candidate, the three candidates with the greatest number of EC votes are placed before the House of Representatives. The House then votes by state (1 vote per state) to determine the winner. This was used a few times in the 19th century. I’m not aware of it being used in the 20th century."
As a declared Reagan Republican (RR), I have no fear of a new Trump presidency. He won in 2016 and we weren't forced out then, and we won't be again if he happens to win in 2024. We will outlast him. Which means we will bite our tongues and keep to the shadows until his reign ends.
AND Trump's reign will end soon, and so will the reign of MAGA Republicans (MR). There is no successor to Trump to lead the MR movement.  When his political career is over, so ends MAGA.
So, best case scenario, MAGA and Trump go away this Nov.. Worst case scenario, they both go away in Jan 2029.  Either way, I don't care as long as MAGA dies.
One more thing, Rol, yes, I have been a Republican all my life, that being said, can you tell me why I voted for Al Gore in 2000?
Final thoughts:
Reagan's legacy will outlast and outshine Trump's legacy:
Reagan - won the Cold War and defeated the Soviet Union
Trump - got impeached twice and half built a wall on the Mexico border

I apologize to all for this fucked up formatting, it looks fine before I submit it. WTF ?

When it concerns the American election procedure, I think it's necessary to reiterate that a third party has no realistic chance under the current rules of "winner takes all." While what you say is correct about the current rules, it's also true that the rules would need to be changed. But once you change from an electoral college vote to the popular vote, you might as well adopt the run-off rules if no candidate attains a majority of the votes in the first round. Obviously, it's extremely hypothetical to talk about viable third parties, because neither the democrats nor republicans who would have to write such a change into law have no interest whatsoever in doing this.

As for the end of Trump's reign, it's unfortunately not so simple. Trump's first tenure was one hell of a mess as he and his yes-man went into the presidency very unprepared. But this time around there is a plan and there's already the advantage of a supreme court stacked in favor of MAGA. The plan includes getting rid of RRs in federal institutions to replace them with MRs. This means there's a high chance that RRs will be done for good by 2029.

And do tell why you voted Al Gore.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV will outsell Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I was wrong.

Chrkeller said:
zorg1000 said:

It’s a false equivalence to pretend the current left & right are equally extreme. Let’s look at the left-right spectrum

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/ed3cd97c-6782-4389-a5b4-b591e815b506" width="735" height="229">


Over the last few decades, Democrats have shifted from Moderate to Liberal while Republicans have shifted from Conservative to Extreme-Right.

You’re right that the current system is fucked and that’s because of partisan gerrymandering, the filibuster and the electoral college allowing the minority party to beat or block the majority party.

As long as Republicans continue to win or go back and forth with Democrats then they have no incentive to moderate themselves.

I always enjoy when you post an opinion as though it is a fact.  For the record I tend to agree with this particular opinion, but it is still an opinion.  People are entitled to think debt forgiveness, etc are extreme.

And honestly I think the overall argument is weak.  Being less extreme doesn't make one not extreme.  

Both parties are extreme and neither are focused on the middle class, which is the point.

Broad brush but liberals care about the poor and conservatives care about the rich.  Anyone who thinks either party is middle class focused, in my opinion, is wrong.  

And you are right, there is no incentive for either party to change.  Which is why, in an ideal world, a third party emerges and we can vote all those morons out and force a change.  

 Umm……because it is a fact? Debt forgiveness is not anywhere close to banning abortion or trying to overturn an election/incite an insurrection. If student debt forgiveness is your shining example of left wing extremism then you’re kind of proving my point.

My argument isn’t that one is less extreme, it’s that one has become extreme while the other has shifted from left of center to center left.

Go back to our conversation from a week or two ago, the one where I listed a few dozen things from various bills that benefit middle class Americans. Jobs created by the IIJA, CHIPS & IRA are primarily in blue collar fields like construction & manufacturing. Much of the stimulus/tax credits in the ARP/IRA were capped to families making up to a certain amount. Expansions to ACA subsidies, Medicare prescription caps, VA cancer treatment and mental health services in schools benefit the middle class, the elderly, veterans & children. Climate change mitigation benefits everyone regardless of income. On top of that, there are things they tried but couldn’t pass like increased minimum wage, making it easier to join a union, subsidized child & elder care, universal pre-K, tuition free community college, paid family & medical leave, etc. that undoubtedly benefit the middle class.

No, the lack of incentives to change only applies to Republicans, they have won the presidency in 3 of the last 8 elections while only winning the popular vote once. On the flip side Democrats have won the presidency only 5 times while winning the popular vote in 7 of the last 8 elections. Republicans can win without a majority while Democrats can lose despite having a majority. Then factor in the filibuster which is used to block legislation that the majority party wants to pass, this hurts democrats because they actually want to pass meaningful legislation while republicans can get their tax cuts using the filibuster proof Reconciliation process and cut back regulations & rights by appointing conservative judges.

If you’re going to claim that the left is almost as extreme as the right and doesn’t support the middle class then you need to give some actual examples or data to back it up.

Last edited by zorg1000 - 2 days ago

When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
Chrkeller said:

I always enjoy when you post an opinion as though it is a fact.  For the record I tend to agree with this particular opinion, but it is still an opinion.  People are entitled to think debt forgiveness, etc are extreme.

And honestly I think the overall argument is weak.  Being less extreme doesn't make one not extreme.  

Both parties are extreme and neither are focused on the middle class, which is the point.

Broad brush but liberals care about the poor and conservatives care about the rich.  Anyone who thinks either party is middle class focused, in my opinion, is wrong.  

And you are right, there is no incentive for either party to change.  Which is why, in an ideal world, a third party emerges and we can vote all those morons out and force a change.  

 Umm……because it is a fact? Debt forgiveness is not anywhere close to banning abortion or trying to overturn an election/incite an insurrection. If student debt forgiveness is your shining example of left wing extremism then you’re kind of proving my point.

My argument isn’t that one is less extreme, it’s that one has become extreme while the other has shifted from left of center to center left.

Go back to our conversation from a week or two ago, the one where I listed a few dozen things from various bills that benefit middle class Americans. Jobs created by the IIJA, CHIPS & IRA are primarily in blue collar fields like construction & manufacturing. Much of the stimulus/tax credits in the ARP/IRA were capped to families making up to a certain amount. Expansions to ACA subsidies, Medicare prescription caps, VA cancer treatment and mental health services in schools benefit the middle class, the elderly, veterans & children. Climate change mitigation benefits everyone regardless of income. On top of that, there are things they tried but couldn’t pass like increased minimum wage, making it easier to join a union, subsidized child & elder care, universal pre-K, tuition free community college, paid family & medical leave, etc. that undoubtedly benefit the middle class.

No, the lack of incentives to change only applies to Republicans, they have won the presidency in 3 of the last 8 elections while only winning the popular vote once. On the flip side Democrats have won the presidency only 5 times while winning the popular vote in 7 of the last 8 elections. Republicans can win without a majority while Democrats can lose despite having a majority. Then factor in the filibuster which is used to block legislation that the majority party wants to pass, this hurts democrats because they actually want to pass meaningful legislation while republicans can get their tax cuts using the filibuster proof Reconciliation process and cut back regulations & rights by appointing conservative judges.

If you’re going to claim that the left is almost as extreme as the right and doesn’t support the middle class then you need to give some actual examples or data to back it up.

It isn't a fact, lol.  Wow.  I'm always amazed at what people think is a fact versus what is an opinion.  Extreme is going to viewed based on personal standards, which varies from person to person.  A fact is something like Na being 22.9 Daltons.  It is measurable.  Measuring "extreme" is nothing more than a personal opinion.    

Also, since you can't read very well, I didn't say I thought the left was as extreme.  But clearly many do, because their belief system is different than mine.  You can't claim, at least shouldn't, opinions as facts.  

Edit

Electoral college is a can of worms.  Just because some haven't won the majority doesn't mean they couldn't.  If we change the system they way people campaign will change.  Results wouldn't be a linear extrapolation.

Last edited by Chrkeller - 2 days ago

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RolStoppable said:
BFR said:

Based on my research, I found that the US cannot have a runoff election, from Reddit:

"The US already has a system for holding a runoff election for POTUS and it is written into the federal constitution. If the Electoral College does not award the 270 majority to any candidate, the three candidates with the greatest number of EC votes are placed before the House of Representatives. The House then votes by state (1 vote per state) to determine the winner. This was used a few times in the 19th century. I’m not aware of it being used in the 20th century."
As a declared Reagan Republican (RR), I have no fear of a new Trump presidency. He won in 2016 and we weren't forced out then, and we won't be again if he happens to win in 2024. We will outlast him. Which means we will bite our tongues and keep to the shadows until his reign ends.
AND Trump's reign will end soon, and so will the reign of MAGA Republicans (MR). There is no successor to Trump to lead the MR movement.  When his political career is over, so ends MAGA.
So, best case scenario, MAGA and Trump go away this Nov.. Worst case scenario, they both go away in Jan 2029.  Either way, I don't care as long as MAGA dies.
One more thing, Rol, yes, I have been a Republican all my life, that being said, can you tell me why I voted for Al Gore in 2000?
Final thoughts:
Reagan's legacy will outlast and outshine Trump's legacy:
Reagan - won the Cold War and defeated the Soviet Union
Trump - got impeached twice and half built a wall on the Mexico border

I apologize to all for this fucked up formatting, it looks fine before I submit it. WTF ?

When it concerns the American election procedure, I think it's necessary to reiterate that a third party has no realistic chance under the current rules of "winner takes all." While what you say is correct about the current rules, it's also true that the rules would need to be changed. But once you change from an electoral college vote to the popular vote, you might as well adopt the run-off rules if no candidate attains a majority of the votes in the first round. Obviously, it's extremely hypothetical to talk about viable third parties, because neither the democrats nor republicans who would have to write such a change into law have no interest whatsoever in doing this.

As for the end of Trump's reign, it's unfortunately not so simple. Trump's first tenure was one hell of a mess as he and his yes-man went into the presidency very unprepared. But this time around there is a plan and there's already the advantage of a supreme court stacked in favor of MAGA. The plan includes getting rid of RRs in federal institutions to replace them with MRs. This means there's a high chance that RRs will be done for good by 2029.

And do tell why you voted Al Gore.

What people don't seem to grasp about the US political system is that it's a two-party system based on people lumped together in largely arbitrary geographical blocs whose citizens often have very little in common with one another, and the winner in each of these arbitrary blocs of geography gets all the power. There's no shadow government (in the sense that this term is understood in countries with parliamentary governments) and no shadow president (also in the same sense). 

Take Oklahoma. It's one of the most heavily Republican states in the country. Even so, 30-35 percent of the state votes Democratic and supports Biden. If representation in Congress were truly proportional, Oklahoma would have 3-4 Republican representatives in Congress and 1-2 Democratic representatives. Instead, it has 5 Republicans and 0 Democrats in Congress. The state legislature is similarly lopsided, comprised of 80 percent Republicans. The other 20 percent are from districts the Republicans couldn't quite gerrymander into Republican district. Democrats in Oklahoma are effectively disenfranchised and are basically hostages to the whims of the OKGOP. The OKGOP has a more iron grip on Oklahoma than Fidesz does in Hungary. Thanks to that fact, Ryan Walters has now issued a mandate that the Bible be kept in every classroom in Oklahoma and taught as history in every grade. Any teacher who refuses to comply will have their teaching licenses revoked by the state.

Even if a third party could somehow become viable, in all but the 2-3 states which have runoff elections, it wouldn't matter. Let's say a state has 11 Congressional districts. If the Republican House candidates get 33 percent + 1 person of the vote in each district, the Democrats get 33 percent of the vote, and the Libertarians, Greens, whatever, get 33 percent of the vote, that state will have 11 Republican congressmen, 0 Democratic congressmen, and 0 third party congressmen, despite the fact that 66 percent of the population voted against the Republican. Yes, I'm aware that a result that close would be recounted to the moon and back, but the result would be the same.

Last edited by SanAndreasX - 2 days ago