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Forums - Politics Discussion - Biden vs Trump 2024 Political Platforms, Policies and Issues

rapsuperstar31 said:
Chrkeller said:

If trump loses, odds he admits defeat and doesn't cause chaos? I'm going 0.5%.

When Trump loses he will have a lot less power to even attempt anything other than lawsuits that will get tossed out.  He isn't going to have the various agencies available to him.

It isn't the agencies I'm worried about.  It is his uneducated, gun carrying supporters.  



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Tober said:
Chrkeller said:

I love how the "protect the unborn" types immediately stop caring about the child when it is born. Most have no interest in ensuring an unwanted child is well cared for.

Anti abortion was never about the child, it always was (and still is) about controlling women.

That is quite the take, assuming people don't care about children when they are born?

Children are a miracle, only in an evil world they are regarded as shackles.

It is the truth.  The same people who are anti abortion because of the children are the first to vote against any bills aimed at helping children.  

I remember in Cincinnati there was a bill to provide free breakfast to impoverished children before school...  the "children" people voted that down so quick.  

Anti abortion is about control.  

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 29 January 2024

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Tober said:

That is quite the take, assuming people don't care about children when they are born?

Children are a miracle, only in an evil world they are regarded as shackles.

Ok, so support little Timmy's cancer treatment, support little Sally's school lunch, support Jenna being able to go to daycare so her mom can work.

Republicans are consistently cutting back support for families and kids. If you're only pro-life when it's convenient for you, as someone else's burden, you're not particularly pro-life. If you're not willing to support life, when it's inconvenient to you, then you're not pro-life. You're just an anti-abortion virtue signaler. 



Tober said:
Chrkeller said:

I love how the "protect the unborn" types immediately stop caring about the child when it is born. Most have no interest in ensuring an unwanted child is well cared for.

Anti abortion was never about the child, it always was (and still is) about controlling women.

That is quite the take, assuming people don't care about children when they are born?

Children are a miracle, only in an evil world they are regarded as shackles.

Like I said in a previous post, an overwhelming majority of Republicans voted against a bill to provide funding for baby formula production when we were going through a massive baby formula shortage. Not a single Republican in Congress supported Build Back Better which would have offered expanded Child Tax Credit, free school lunch, universal pre-K & subsidized daycare. At the state level we have seen Republicans pass bills that would child labor regulations.

They don’t give a fuck about children, they just want to control women.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

Tober said:

"Trump has repeatedly bent over backwards to appease Putin. Russia didn't feel the need to invade anyone while there was a POTUS who would further their own interests for them. As soon as that stopped they went back to using force. If Trump were president right now though, he would let Russia march into Kyiv unopposed."

Appease Putin? By putting actions on them because of Crimea?

By literally asking Russia to interfere in our elections, completely looking the other way when they do and even put bounties on the heads of American soldiers, going out of his way to legitimize Putin's regime and delegitimize NATO, pressuring Ukraine to surrender to Russia, need I go on?

Tober said:

I am mentioning facts and you answer by mind reading. Mind reading does not exist. An political analyst on media channels cannot mind read as well, so don't take those to seriously.

I thought you were against removing context from replies. Is that just for thee but not for me? I already gave you a sourced example of Trump abandoning our allies that you disingenuously ignored. I don't have to read minds; Trump has stated repeatedly that he is against funding Ukraine's defense and thinks they should at the very least surrender the territory they've lost to Russia if not submit to them entirely. Denying funding (like he tried to extort them for before) would accomplish that on its own. By merely paying attention to his own words and actions you would know that Trump would quite literally let Russia march into Kyiv unopposed. Only one of us seems to actually be arguing in good faith, though.



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Well I do hope that what ever happens this election that we all can find a good comrpomise like the clinton years.



BiON!@ 

I don't post very often on the political threads (for obvious reasons) but I posted recently on the US Politics, and I'll post here right now.
It's terrifying that the two front-runners who are all but guaranteed to get the nominations of their parties both support military choices that will at best bring the world on the brink of WWIII, and at worst could lead to nuclear war.



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PS5: 115 million (was 105 million) Xbox Series S/X: 48 million (was 60 million, then 67 million, then 57 million)

PS4: 120 mil (was 100 then 130 million, then 122 million) Xbox One: 51 mil (was 50 then 55 mil)

3DS: 75.5 mil (was 73, then 77 million)

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firebush03 said:
zorg1000 said:

“Again, I understand cognitive dissonance is a difficult thing to grapple with. It’s okay to change your views.”

Maybe follow your own advice? Your argument is both sides are the same, I provided examples of how that’s not true and then you turn around and tell me I’m biased and double down on your existing views.

Again, one side is actively trying to strip away access to healthcare while the other side is taking steps (even if incremental) to increase access to healthcare. This is by definition not a “both sides are the same” scenario.

eh. I will confess, I am getting a little aggressive lmao. However, my resistance to your claim shouldn’t be seen as resistance to cognitive dissonance: this is something I’ve admittedly failed to keep in mind for your side of the argument. That being said, I would appreciate if you at least take the time to consider the points I’ve laid out. You provided examples, and I’ve shared my thoughts on these examples. Ultimately, I do not disagree that one side is trying to strip away your rights at an accelerated pace whereas the other is doing so in a much more “cloaked” manner. One is saying “it’s good that we’re stripping away your rights(!)” whereas the other is saying “we care about your rights(!) *does nothing and progresses in the direction of stripping your rights slowly throughout every bill they pass*”. At the end of the day, yes, I agree the parties are different in this regard…however, when it comes to substantive change in the right direction, they are the same: this is a point I believe we agree on. More specifically, neither side is looking to implement universal healthcare, neither side is looking to end all of our forever wars and remain in our own spheres, neither side truly cares about addressing the mounting challenges facing the working class, neither side truly cares about doing anything for the American people nor the people of this world.

What’s my rationale for not wanting to vote Biden then? The way I see it is as follows: A vote for Biden is a vote to continue the genocide in Gaza, a vote for Biden is an endorsement of the continual expansion of oil drilling and carbon emissions (with some incremental measures — which literally amount to nothing — sprinkled in there), a vote for Biden is a certification that no fresh new face with potentially less harmful practices will emerge four years from now. And if I were to cast my vote, it would be for Cornell West…but he’s not going to win, nor will he hit that 5% threshold. So I see no reason in voting. If you can explain how Biden has truly passed bills *which are substantive* and how Biden’s net outcome has truly been in the direction of what he has promised, then maybe I’ll consider. But at the end of the day, I see it as a two-horse-race toward the same goal, though with one pushing at a slightly faster pace.

I’m a believer in good faith argument, so I’ll refrain further from attacks. I am very sorry about earlier. That was entirely my bad. and I can only that hope a good faith political discussion can still be had.

Please explain to me how Democrats are “slowly stripping our rights through every bill passed” or “stripping rights in a cloaked manner”.

You talk about wanting a good faith argument but nothing you are saying is in good faith, “not doing as much as I want” is not the same as “doing nothing”.

Don’t look at the bills or executive orders on a individual basis but collectively, American Rescue Plan, Infrastructure Investment & Jobs Act, Inflation Reduction Act, Safer Communities Act, PACT Act, CHIPs & Science Act, Respect for Marriage Act, Violence Against Women Act, Speak Out Act, Pregnant Workers Fairness Act, Emmett Till Antilynching Act, Covid 19 Hate Crimes Act, Electoral Count Act, expunge/pardon federal marijuana possession, forgive over $136 billion in student debt to over 3.7 million people, involved with various labor union negotiations such as rail workers and auto workers and is currently negotiating expanded Child Tax Credit and border security bills, etc.

Between these we have gotten progress (some small, some more substantial) when it comes to climate change, infrastructure, gun safety, healthcare, domestic manufacturing, scientific research, protections for women/LGBT/minorities, drug reform, student debt relief, labor unions, tax enforcement, election reform, etc.

There are absolutely legitimate reasons to criticize Biden and Democrats in general and I also wish they were able to get a lot more done but that is a hell of a set of accomplishments while having a 50-50 Senate and a tiny House majority.

Also, look at what happened as soon as Republicans took the House. Not a single noteworthy bill has passed and it’s literally just been an entire year of GOP factions fighting with each other. Say what you want about Biden & Democrats, at least they can keep the government functioning.

Basically what I’m saying is “don’t let perfect be the enemy of good”. I would much rather have a government that can function and make moderate improvements vs one that actively tries to strip away rights and is only looking out for the wealthiest. As for Cornell West, maybe he shares similar views as you but do you really believe he can accomplish anything in the White House even if he did miraculously win?

Last edited by zorg1000 - on 29 January 2024

When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

Shtinamin_ said:

Now this is just to anyone that clicks this thread.

What would happen if a platform value became implemented?

For example: What would happen, if everyone was given 2 free years of community college? 
Another example: What would be the consequences, if there was a merit-based immigration system that protects American labor and promotes American values? 
Final in this specific post: What would be the result as a whole for America, if transgender women are restricted from competing in women’s sports?.

This is my short and quick thoughts on what would happen. At the end of the what would happen, I try to see what each candidate is trying to value.

  • What would happen, if everyone was given 2 free years of community college?
    First,

9 million attend community college.
Community college is around $10,000/year.
A minimum of $90 Billion of taxes immediately, or $90 Billion is added to the deficit.

Second,

Germany has free college with 32% of their population attending. ~25M German citizens 
American would have about 32% of their population attending. ~102M US citizens
A $1.02 Trillion of taxes per year to support this, if ~32% of the US population took advantage of this free college.
There are 168 million taxpayers. The $1.02 trillion in taxes would be divided up and each hard working tax paying citizen would have to pay an additional ~$6,000 in taxes to counteract the deficit that would come from this.

Third,

Approximately, +102M people have an opportunity to get an associates degree. Which can help in getting a job.

This particular platform shows that President Biden cares for increased education, and lowering cost of increased education, and wants to help citizens get a job.

  • What would be the consequences, if there was a merit-based immigration system that protects American labor and promotes American values? 

First,

Every immigrant would be for the betterment of America.

Second,

Every immigrant would be legal.

Third,

More US born citizens would have an opportunity to learn trades, and manual jobs.
As of now there are approximately 31M immigrants that have labor force jobs in America. 
In 2021 17.4% of immigrants were in the labor force, that increased to 18.1% in 2022, and again to 19% in 2023.
In 2022 labor force participation from immigrants increased by 65.9%.

Fourth,

The country would grow stronger and unify. Leading to decreases of racism, prejudice, or pandering.

Fifth,

The outside borders would be overcrowded, and could be a long line to enter the US depending on how efficiently they approve or disapprove an immigrant.

This particular platform shows that President Trump cares for the quality of the US population. It also shows that he wants US citizens to have labor force jobs like, trades, manual jobs, agriculture, construction, etc.

  • What would be the result as a whole for America, if transgender women are restricted from competing in women’s sports?

First,

Women’s spaces will be protected. They will not have to have a mentality check, nor feel awkward when they get ready and dressed in the locker rooms.

Second,

They can actually be called women’s sports

Third,

We will most likely lead to the creation a trans’ sports section.

This shows that both President Biden and President Trump care for the safety of women. And want to keep gender-related sport groups separated.

Let me know what y'all think would happen? 

Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 160 million (was 120 million, then 140 million, then 150 million)

PS5: 130 million (was 124 million)

Xbox Series X/S: 54 million (was 60 million, then 57 million)

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Last edited by Shtinamin_ - on 29 January 2024

Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 160 million (was 120 million, then 140 million, then 150 million)

PS5: 130 million (was 124 million)

Xbox Series X/S: 54 million (was 60 million, then 57 million)

"The way to accomplish great things, is to be indefatigable and never rest till the thing is accomplished." - Joseph Smith Jr.

Shtinamin_ said:

This is my short and quick thoughts on what would happen. At the end of the what would happen, I try to see what each candidate is trying to value.

  • What would happen, if everyone was given 2 free years of community college?
    First,

9 million attend community college.
Community college is around $10,000/year.
A minimum of $90 Billion of taxes immediately, or $90 Billion is added to the deficit.

Second,

Germany has free college with 32% of their population attending. ~25M German citizens 
American would have about 32% of their population attending. ~102M US citizens
A $1.02 Trillion of taxes per year to support this, if ~32% of the US population took advantage of this free college.
There are 168 million taxpayers. The $1.02 trillion in taxes would be divided up and each hard working tax paying citizen would have to pay an additional ~$6,000 in taxes to counteract the deficit that would come from this.

Third,

Approximately, +102M people have an opportunity to get an associates degree. Which can help in getting a job.

This particular platform shows that President Biden cares for increased education, and lowering cost of increased education, and wants to help citizens get a job.

This type of analysis is extremely flawed because it relies on subjective interpretations and wild guesses to extrapolate to such a wild degree that the conclusions don't pass the smell test.

Lets break all of this down:

  • How many people attend community college? Depends how you count (and how the government counts). Per Federal data, about 6.7 million attend "public 2-year" institutions, which is likely the best pool for determining what the government considers eligible students. That number increases to 9 if you include certain things that likely wouldn't be included in this program (such as private institutions). We also have no way of knowing how many of these individuals would be eligible for this program.
  • How much does community college cost? Well, again, depends how you count. The proposals that I am familiar with however, are for free tuition. That means it would not cover housing and other expenses that often come with college. Average tuition is for in-state tuition at public 2-year institutions is about $3.5k
  • Using these numbers decreases costs to about $23billion (less than 1/3 of your initial estimate). 

  • How many Americans would enroll in free community college? By my understanding, you just assumed that 32% of Americans would be continually enrolled in these programs which should clearly not pass the smell test, but lets break it down a bit more first.
    • How many Germans are enrolled in free college: You seemed to have taken the data that roughly 32% of Germans have a degree as an assertion that 32% of Germans are continually enrolled in University, which is a wild assumption. In reality there are about 2.92 students enrolled in German Universities. That is about 3.4%, a far cry from 32%. 
    • Is it safe to assume that the number of Americans in community college would match Germany for some reason: No
    • So how many Americans would enroll in community college if it were free: It is hard to say. Maybe 23% increase in some areas, but for many, community college is already free. If you subtract California (which already has free community college), and you assume a 23% increase (this number was taken from studies of the effects of previous free tuition programs), you get about 1.2million more students. 
  • So how much does it cost now? About $27.7billion.

  • So, now lets talk about taxation! 
  • Who pays taxes: You're right that theres about 168 million people who pay income tax, but only 47% of government revenue comes from income taxes. 
  • Lets distribute the cost to the income tax payers. $13billion transferred across 168m people is an average of... $77. Thats about 1% of your estimate. 
  • But lets assume this all just goes to the debt. This would increase the debt by $27.7b/year, right? Well...no. Because college is an investment, it leads to increased wages, increased productivity, decreased criminality, and a bunch of other effects further down the line which counteracts that cost. One estimate I saw indicated that Community Colleges increased GDP by an estimated $898b/year. Assuming a 23% increase due to increased enrollment, that would mean adding an additional roughly $200b to the economy/year. That nets about $170b/year. 

Is that a reasonable assumption? Honestly, I don't know. I don't study this stuff. It is complicated. All these factors and variables pull against each other and impact other systems, to the extent that it becomes functionally impossible to just do napkin math estimates to determine the cost/benefits. 

Last edited by sundin13 - on 29 January 2024