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Forums - Politics Discussion - Biden vs Trump 2024 Political Platforms, Policies and Issues

Jumpin 6 days ago
pokoko said:
sundin13 said:

Ehh, I mean, Democratic policies often greatly benefit the working class. Dems are bad at messaging, but if someone looks to vote for the party that actual proposes policies to help the working class, dems are the ticket. 

Very few people are going to actually go down the list and compare the details hidden in enormous spending bills.  What they're going to do is listen to the media, as bad as that is, and to where the candidates are focusing their attention.  That's the simple truth.

And the things Democrats like to talk about the most are either unpopular or irrelevant to the working class.  This has been the pattern in one survey after another.

Polling of people by age shows that working aged people largely support the Democratic Party. So what you're saying is flat out bullshit.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/04/09/age-generational-cohorts-and-party-identification/

The main thing I see democratic politicians talking about are ways to improve the situation for workers around the US. And based on the response of Republican mouthpieces, it seems clear that Republican supporters are heavily against pro-working class reform, not in favour of it.

Many Americans don't see what's going on despite being in the middle of it; a "can't see the forest for the trees" thing. But what is clear to anyone outside the US who is paying attention, the support for Trump and the Republican Party support is largely about those who have fallen under the sway of demagoguery. That's why one of the biggest demagogues in the recent history of the Western world (probably since World War 2) currently leads the Republican Party. That's why the support remains despite him being a convicted felon on top of numerous other issues spanning back years.

Unfortunately, history has shown that demagoguery is the one toxin that successfully kills democracy from within. We have plenty of examples through history where this has happened - right back to the early embryonic stages of Athenian democracy with the demagogue Peisistratos, who eventually made himself Tyrant of Athens ending the Solonian era.

Why have demagogues been successful? Because they associate themselves with the prejudice and fears of the masses. The cult eventually begins to associate the success of the demagogue with their own success - in other words, when demagogue does well, his cult feels like they're doing well; when the demagogue says he's victimized, the cult feels like they were victimized.

It's as simple as that.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

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sundin13 5 days ago
Chrkeller said:
sundin13 said:

Why does messaging always seem more important than actions?

Because messaging gets you elected.  Being elected is required to pass and enforce laws.  

Sure, but I'm not voting based on messaging. I'm not voting for the guy I want to have a beer with or who I think is the best speaker. I'm voting based on policy and proposals. 



Chrkeller 5 days ago
sundin13 said:
Chrkeller said:

Because messaging gets you elected.  Being elected is required to pass and enforce laws.  

Sure, but I'm not voting based on messaging. I'm not voting for the guy I want to have a beer with or who I think is the best speaker. I'm voting based on policy and proposals. 

Which makes you the minority.  Most people don't work that way.



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zorg1000 5 days ago
pokoko said:
zorg1000 said:

I know that he does poorly in the polls and Democrats have been losing blue collar voters for quite a while, but that has literally nothing to do with your original statements.

“it's about people turning against the extremism of the Left.”

“ The Left essentially ignores people who didn't go to college but aren't unemployed and don't center their identity around some type of minority status. If you're in the lower middle then you don't really exist UNTIL election time, then the liberal media starts obsessing over "non-college voters" like some breed of vermin.”

“ most do not focus on the issues that are important to the working class as a group”



If you said that Democrats are bad at messaging and middle class Americans feel ignored than I would agree with you but you said the left is extreme and ignores people who didn’t go to college or are part of a minority group, that is just simply not true.

It literally has everything to do with what I said.  Do I need to do a paint-by-numbers?

A)  Democrats most often talk about things the working class doesn't like or isn't interested in and rarely talk about the stuff they do care about.  

B)  The working class feels ignored and less important to the Democratic party than other groups.  Democrats instead rush to talk about social issues that, again, are unpopular or irrelevant to the working class.

Judis and Teixeira have drawn much criticism (including in this magazine) for advising Democratic candidates to distance themselves from “woke” provocation espoused by what the economist Thomas Piketty calls the “Brahmin Left.” But just about every person I interviewed for this article said much the same. In 2021, the Center for Working-Class Politics surveyed 2,000 working-class voters in five swing states and concluded that “‘woke,’ activist-inspired rhetoric is a liability.” --https://newrepublic.com/article/180441/joe-biden-working-class-vote-2024 

c)  This becomes the identity of the Democrats in the eyes of many people.

I believe one of the articles I linked even said that the rare Democrats who focused on appealing to the working class did very well with that segment, which supports the idea that these are self-inflicted wounds.

There is plenty of evidence to back it up.  Deal with it or don't.

Interesting article, it seems like the saying “actions speak louder than words” isn’t true in this case. The major bills (actions) passed in 2021-2022 under a Democrat majority in Congress & signed into law by Biden are overwhelmingly focused on things that working class Americans benefit from/care about, yet they are more vocal about social issues which is hurting them among this demographic.

I don’t know how they fix it, as long as Republicans are actively trying to strip away people’s rights then Democrats need to fight them on these issues. I don’t think the answer is abandon marginalized groups but I suppose a more balanced mix of touting these accomplishments and defending rights is a winning formula?

Some of these social issues clearly benefit them though like reproduction rights. Running on abortion really helped them in the midterms and various special elections and I don’t think Republicans are doing themselves any favors by blocking federal protections for things like contraceptives or IVF.

I think the big issue is transgender rights, it took a long time for the general population to get onboard with gay rights and once things like the repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell & Obergefell v Hodges happened in the early-mid 2010’s conservatives instantly shifted to attacking transgender people and I just don’t think the general populace is on board with it yet. In this case do you do what’s right or what’s popular?



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

sundin13 5 days ago
Chrkeller said:
sundin13 said:

Sure, but I'm not voting based on messaging. I'm not voting for the guy I want to have a beer with or who I think is the best speaker. I'm voting based on policy and proposals. 

Which makes you the minority.  Most people don't work that way.

Okay, but that's a weird flex for a self-proclaimed Republican. 

Like, yeah, Republican politicians are good at lying to the poor, to make them think that some billionaire will make things better for them by cutting safety nets and cutting taxes on the rich. I'm not going to argue with you on that point.



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Chrkeller 5 days ago
sundin13 said:
Chrkeller said:

Which makes you the minority.  Most people don't work that way.

Okay, but that's a weird flex for a self-proclaimed Republican. 

Like, yeah, Republican politicians are good at lying to the poor, to make them think that some billionaire will make things better for them by cutting safety nets and cutting taxes on the rich. I'm not going to argue with you on that point.

Republicans lie?  Weird flex.  How about politicians lie.

I'm not going to argue with you on that point.



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JRPGfan 5 days ago
Chrkeller said:
sundin13 said:

Sure, but I'm not voting based on messaging. I'm not voting for the guy I want to have a beer with or who I think is the best speaker. I'm voting based on policy and proposals. 

Which makes you the minority.  Most people don't work that way.

Wtf? isn't that the entire point of democracy? To vote who you think best represent your own policy and gives proposals you think will benefit yourself or your country?

Why would you vote for someone, you would like to have a beer with?

"most people don't work that way" ???

That's just sad to read.. politics in the US are so messed up.



Chrkeller 5 days ago
JRPGfan said:
Chrkeller said:

Which makes you the minority.  Most people don't work that way.

Wtf? isn't that the entire point of democracy? To vote who you think best represent your own policy and gives proposals you think will benefit yourself or your country?

Why would you vote for someone, you would like to have a beer with?

"most people don't work that way" ???

That's just sad to read.. politics in the US are so messed up.

No idea.  I'm not saying I vote for the "cool" person.  But most Americans have little knowledge of what politicians actually believe.  

Is that sad?  Sure, but that is the reality.  

Anyone who thinks the average American reads policies and votes accordingly is delusional.  Most watch the news and decide based on a few stories. 

Edit

Which is why Pokoko is 100% right on media and messaging.  The media focuses on special interest groups and reports little on things like best SP500 to date.  Many voters assume liberals only care about special interest groups and vote republican.

As an easy example.  There was a poll a few weeks ago and 48% of Americans thought the stock market was down YTD....  Americans don't even know the basics of what is going on.

So messaging becomes key.  Liberals should focus their message less on special interest, that most don't care about, and talk more about the basics.  Just my 2 cents, Biden should mention the highest stock market ever almost everytime talks.  Maybe even every time he talks.  

Last edited by Chrkeller - 5 days ago

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zorg1000 5 days ago
Chrkeller said:
JRPGfan said:

Wtf? isn't that the entire point of democracy? To vote who you think best represent your own policy and gives proposals you think will benefit yourself or your country?

Why would you vote for someone, you would like to have a beer with?

"most people don't work that way" ???

That's just sad to read.. politics in the US are so messed up.

No idea.  I'm not saying I vote for the "cool" person.  But most Americans have little knowledge of what politicians actually believe.  

Is that sad?  Sure, but that is the reality.  

Anyone who thinks the average American reads policies and votes accordingly is delusional.  Most watch the news and decide based on a few stories. 

Edit

Which is why Pokoko is 100% right on media and messaging.  The media focuses on special interest groups and reports little on things like best SP500 to date.  Many voters assume liberals only care about special interest groups and vote republican.

As an easy example.  There was a poll a few weeks ago and 48% of Americans thought the stock market was down YTD....  Americans don't even know the basics of what is going on.

So messaging becomes key.  Liberals should focus their message less on special interest, that most don't care about, and talk more about the basics.  Just my 2 cents, Biden should mention the highest stock market ever almost everytime talks.  Maybe even every time he talks.  

It’s definitely a tricky situation running on the economy after two years of rising inflation & interest rates, while the economy is strong in a traditional sense (employment, GDP, real wages, stock market, etc) people just aren’t feeling it because of increased prices & borrowing costs.

I think that same poll said a large chuck of the population thinks we are also in a recession. There is a huge disconnect between perception & reality.

Biden & Democrats risk coming off as completely out of touch if they brag about things like the stock market while many Americans are struggling to afford groceries or feel like homeownership is out of reach.

Even with inflation cooling and interest rates possibly going down in the near future, it will probably take a few years of steady wage gains for people to truly feel like the economy is going strong.

I’ve seen a lot of reporting that a large divide among Americans is political engagement and where people get their news from.

Don’t follow politics, Trump-53%/Biden-27%

YouTube, Trump-55%/Biden-39%

Cable News, Trump-53%/Biden-45%

Social Media, Trump-46%/Biden-42%

Digital websites, Trump-39%/Biden-49%

Network News, Trump-35%/Biden-55%

Newspapers, Trump-21%/Biden-70%


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna149497

How do Democrats break through to low information voters who either don’t pay attention or just see out of context clips on YouTube/Facebook/Fox trying to make Biden seem senile? Even with strong messaging, many people just simply aren’t going to be exposed to it.

Last edited by zorg1000 - 5 days ago

When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

Ryuu96 5 days ago
zorg1000 said:
Chrkeller said:

No idea.  I'm not saying I vote for the "cool" person.  But most Americans have little knowledge of what politicians actually believe.  

Is that sad?  Sure, but that is the reality.  

Anyone who thinks the average American reads policies and votes accordingly is delusional.  Most watch the news and decide based on a few stories. 

Edit

Which is why Pokoko is 100% right on media and messaging.  The media focuses on special interest groups and reports little on things like best SP500 to date.  Many voters assume liberals only care about special interest groups and vote republican.

As an easy example.  There was a poll a few weeks ago and 48% of Americans thought the stock market was down YTD....  Americans don't even know the basics of what is going on.

So messaging becomes key.  Liberals should focus their message less on special interest, that most don't care about, and talk more about the basics.  Just my 2 cents, Biden should mention the highest stock market ever almost everytime talks.  Maybe even every time he talks.  

It’s definitely a tricky situation running on the economy after two years of rising inflation & interest rates, while the economy is strong in a traditional sense (employment, GDP, real wages, stock market, etc) people just aren’t feeling it because of increased prices & borrowing costs.

I think that same poll said a large chuck of the population thinks we are also in a recession. There is a huge disconnect between perception & reality.

Biden & Democrats risk coming off as completely out of touch if they brag about things like the stock market while many Americans are struggling to afford groceries or feel like homeownership is out of reach.

Even with inflation cooling and interest rates possibly going down in the near future, it will probably take a few years of steady wage gains for people to truly feel like the economy is going strong.

This was what I was going to ask, how is the economy, cost of living, etc? I think I read a couple months ago that America is doing better than a lot of European countries but it still isn't great and I don't know how much has improved since but if there's still millions struggling with the cost of living, struggling to afford basic necessities such as food, bragging about the stock market over and over is just going to piss a lot of people off and come across as insensitive/out of touch.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - 5 days ago