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Forums - Politics Discussion - Biden vs Trump 2024 Political Platforms, Policies and Issues

Chrkeller said:
zorg1000 said:

Just out of curiosity, which issues have caused you to lean more towards the Republican Party? If I recall in a previous discussion you mentioned that you support universal healthcare and abortion access and based on your views on J6, I’m assuming you’re not a fan of the extremist wing of the Republican Party that just wants to obstruct and please Trump.

Seems pretty rare for someone to have those views while also leaning R so I’m interested in hearing how you came to that decision.

My big paycheck and substantial savings.  I don't know how to word that political correct.  I get more money via Republicans and I don't need nor will ever need social programs.

Self interest, essentially.

As far as extreme Republicans, they are killing the party and making it so I can't vote for them.  I'm voting Biden.  I'd like to have more money in my pocket but I can't support absolute morons.  

Hopefully that all makes sense.

I get that to an extent but just how much more money are you making with a Republican president vs a Democratic president?

Your profile says you’re 43 so the 2000 election would be the first of your adult life and eligible to vote in. In that time we have had Bush, Obama, Trump & Biden as presidents. What exactly did Bush & Trump do that significantly increased your earnings/what did Obama & Biden do that significantly decreased your earnings?

The Bush & Trump tax cuts primarily benefitted the rich & corporations while adding to the deficit, increasing income inequality and doing little to grow the economy.

https://www.cbpp.org/high-income-households-gained-the-most-from-bush-tax-cuts

https://www.cbpp.org/households-with-incomes-in-top-1-percent-benefit-most-from-2017-trump-tax-law

It sounds like you make good money but I doubt you’re a millionaire or own a big corporation so how exactly are your paychecks/savings anything more than a few percent higher under Republican presidents? 

Does it basically come down to the fact that Obama & Biden entered office in the middle of the Great Recession & Covid-19 Pandemic and had to focus on recovery efforts whereas Bush & Trump entered office in significantly more favorable conditions giving Republicans the perception of being better on the economy?

Another thing I’m curious about, you side more with Democrats on healthcare & abortion but side more with Republicans on tax policy and the economy, what are your views on things like gun laws, LGBT rights, voting rights, immigration, climate change, unions, etc?

Sorry if I’m coming off rude with all these questions, just with how partisan politics have become it’s rare to see someone with a mix of left & right views.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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the-pi-guy said:
firebush03 said:

Where is the evidence that Zelenskyy wants peace talks and that the US is preventing that?

Republicans in particular have been pushing against any aid. Many of them literally consider Russia to be allies.  

How stalled U.S. aid for Ukraine exemplifies GOP’s softening stance on Russia

Republicans Block Aid To Ukraine

Zelenskyy himself came to the US to lobby Congress multiple times to beg for aid. 

2022

September 2023

December 2023

America being a superpower isn't proof in and of itself of anything. Plenty of things still happen without the US and even against what the US asks for.  

You're arguing that countries are having their hand forced by America with no evidence. 

What you don't see in this video is Biden is sitting behind Dmytro with his hand up his spine.

It's funny people think Zelenskyy is the type of person to let America control him or anyone else, near the start of the war people were saying Zelenskyy was too abrasive about his allies, he would criticise them a lot for their lack of support, I think recently he has learnt to be a bit more diplomatic but he has often refused to hold his tongue in the past.

But like Zelenskyy said in his 60 minute interview, how can any "peace" with Russia now not result in the restoration of Ukraine's territory?

Ukrainians polled on the issue consistently vote in the majority that they would refuse territory concessions as well and who can blame them? People demanding Ukraine surrender should put themselves in their position, I don't believe for a second that the majority of people in America, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, etc. Would willingly surrender territory if another country invaded them, slaughtered thousands of their people and stole their land, I think those in Western Europe and America would be chomping at the bit for revenge and rightfully so.

But Ukraine should because...America controls them? Or something.

The demands on Ukraine would never apply to America/Western Europe in the same situation, if Scotland was invaded, Brits would be demanding that UK sink every last Russian ship, Lol. Would these same people saying Ukraine should surrender and America should stop supporting them, also be willing to make the same concessions if Russia invaded their country/state, stole their land, raped and murdered their families and then demanded they demilitarise and surrender the territory that Russia has taken?

Fat chance, Americans can't even give up their assault rifles without screaming about their freedoms.



zorg1000 said:
Chrkeller said:

My big paycheck and substantial savings.  I don't know how to word that political correct.  I get more money via Republicans and I don't need nor will ever need social programs.

Self interest, essentially.

As far as extreme Republicans, they are killing the party and making it so I can't vote for them.  I'm voting Biden.  I'd like to have more money in my pocket but I can't support absolute morons.  

Hopefully that all makes sense.

I get that to an extent but just how much more money are you making with a Republican president vs a Democratic president?

Your profile says you’re 43 so the 2000 election would be the first of your adult life and eligible to vote in. In that time we have had Bush, Obama, Trump & Biden as presidents. What exactly did Bush & Trump do that significantly increased your earnings/what did Obama & Biden do that significantly decreased your earnings?

The Bush & Trump tax cuts primarily benefitted the rich & corporations while adding to the deficit, increasing income inequality and doing little to grow the economy.

https://www.cbpp.org/high-income-households-gained-the-most-from-bush-tax-cuts

https://www.cbpp.org/households-with-incomes-in-top-1-percent-benefit-most-from-2017-trump-tax-law

It sounds like you make good money but I doubt you’re a millionaire or own a big corporation so how exactly are your paychecks/savings anything more than a few percent higher under Republican presidents? 

Does it basically come down to the fact that Obama & Biden entered office in the middle of the Great Recession & Covid-19 Pandemic and had to focus on recovery efforts whereas Bush & Trump entered office in significantly more favorable conditions giving Republicans the perception of being better on the economy?

Another thing I’m curious about, you side more with Democrats on healthcare & abortion but side more with Republicans on tax policy and the economy, what are your views on things like gun laws, LGBT rights, voting rights, immigration, climate change, unions, etc?

Sorry if I’m coming off rude with all these questions, just with how partisan politics have become it’s rare to see someone with a mix of left & right views.

You would be mistaken.  

I'm happy to answer the other questions, but I'm firing up borderlands with the wife.  I'll respond tomorrow.



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Chrkeller said:

You would be mistaken.  

I'm happy to answer the other questions, but I'm firing up borderlands with the wife.  I'll respond tomorrow.

Do you feel like a government which is geared towards keeping the wealthy few rich produces a better society than a government which is geared towards uplifting the many?

I wholly understand the logic of supporting the governmental systems which work best for you (though I have my doubts about whether the Republicans are that party but I'll digress for now), but I'm curious about your wider beliefs regarding societal betterment. 



Chrkeller said:
zorg1000 said:

I get that to an extent but just how much more money are you making with a Republican president vs a Democratic president?

Your profile says you’re 43 so the 2000 election would be the first of your adult life and eligible to vote in. In that time we have had Bush, Obama, Trump & Biden as presidents. What exactly did Bush & Trump do that significantly increased your earnings/what did Obama & Biden do that significantly decreased your earnings?

The Bush & Trump tax cuts primarily benefitted the rich & corporations while adding to the deficit, increasing income inequality and doing little to grow the economy.

https://www.cbpp.org/high-income-households-gained-the-most-from-bush-tax-cuts

https://www.cbpp.org/households-with-incomes-in-top-1-percent-benefit-most-from-2017-trump-tax-law

It sounds like you make good money but I doubt you’re a millionaire or own a big corporation so how exactly are your paychecks/savings anything more than a few percent higher under Republican presidents? 

Does it basically come down to the fact that Obama & Biden entered office in the middle of the Great Recession & Covid-19 Pandemic and had to focus on recovery efforts whereas Bush & Trump entered office in significantly more favorable conditions giving Republicans the perception of being better on the economy?

Another thing I’m curious about, you side more with Democrats on healthcare & abortion but side more with Republicans on tax policy and the economy, what are your views on things like gun laws, LGBT rights, voting rights, immigration, climate change, unions, etc?

Sorry if I’m coming off rude with all these questions, just with how partisan politics have become it’s rare to see someone with a mix of left & right views.

You would be mistaken.  

I'm happy to answer the other questions, but I'm firing up borderlands with the wife.  I'll respond tomorrow.

I know you said you would respond in further detail tomorrow but the fact that you’re a millionaire brings up something else I would like to discuss.

As a millionaire, I assume you can afford the essentials in life without much issue. Things like housing, utilities, healthcare, child care (if you have kids), elder care (if you have parents who need it), transportation, food, retirement savings, emergency savings, etc. are things that you pay for and still have plenty left over for things like entertainment, leisure, travel & hobbies.

The two links I posted above show that people in the top 1% of earners saved an average of 6.7% under Bush & $61k (6.1% of $1m) under Trump. Would a 6-7% increase in taxes force you to lower your standard of living? Would you all of a sudden struggle to pay your bills or provide for your family? Would you no longer be able to afford to play the games you enjoy on your hardware of choice?

I just have a hard time believing that a millionaire would be so bad with their personal finances and living on such thin margins that a 6-7% increase in taxes would cause a notable impact on their way of life. It also seems to be at extreme odds with your support for universal healthcare & abortion access and claiming they are human rights. It’s like you support the idea of them as long as you don’t have to make any sacrifices ( although I’m not sure if going from really, really rich to just really rich is much of a sacrifice).



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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the-pi-guy said:

Where is the evidence that Zelenskyy wants peace talks and that the US is preventing that?

Republicans in particular have been pushing against any aid. Many of them literally consider Russia to be allies.  

How stalled U.S. aid for Ukraine exemplifies GOP’s softening stance on Russia

Republicans Block Aid To Ukraine

Zelenskyy himself came to the US to lobby Congress multiple times to beg for aid. 

2022

September 2023

December 2023

America being a superpower isn't proof in and of itself of anything. Plenty of things still happen without the US and even against what the US asks for.  

You're arguing that countries are having their hand forced by America with no evidence. 

(I’ve got a very very strong responses packed to the brim with evidence-based claims coming soon. I have a brother who is deep in examining foreign affairs, and we’ve managed to cook something good up. Need to polish the work a fair bit, can’t be flashing my cards too soon. But it’s an extensive essay which examines Ukraine’s societal trends going back to since the fall of the USSR. I won’t drop it all at once, but it will be a gradual sort of thing.)

Also, I will immediately confess that yes, Zelenski since April 2022 has not been interested in peace talks. I got that detail wrong. However, to give just a taste of what I’ve got cooking up, the reason behind Zelenski’s shift in tone from being pro-peace to pro-war during April 2022 can be traced directly to U.S. and U.K. affirmation mixed with Zelenski’s fear of nationalistic uprising. To keep it brief for now, Zelenski and Putin were close to reaching a ceasefire: All Zelenski needed to do was concede that Ukraine would not become an official member of NATO. Very simple. However, upon hearing of these talks, Boris Johnson would be sent out to Ukraine with instruction of providing Zelenski affirmation that U.S. and U.K. would be willing and able to supply Ukraine with sufficient resources to counter any and all attacks from Russia, and in fact gain ground so as to reclaim the land lost back in the 2014 coup. Zelenski, delighted by the prospect and fearful of the nationalist response if he did choose peace, would respond by rejecting the peace offering between him and Putin. Highly reputable sources confirm that in fact this is all very much factual, and I can provide this later. I still need to polish, keep in mind.

Last edited by firebush03 - on 17 May 2024

firebush03 said:
the-pi-guy said:

Where is the evidence that Zelenskyy wants peace talks and that the US is preventing that?

Republicans in particular have been pushing against any aid. Many of them literally consider Russia to be allies.  

How stalled U.S. aid for Ukraine exemplifies GOP’s softening stance on Russia

Republicans Block Aid To Ukraine

Zelenskyy himself came to the US to lobby Congress multiple times to beg for aid. 

2022

September 2023

December 2023

America being a superpower isn't proof in and of itself of anything. Plenty of things still happen without the US and even against what the US asks for.  

You're arguing that countries are having their hand forced by America with no evidence. 

(I’ve got a very very strong responses packed to the brim with evidence-based claims coming soon. I have a brother who is deep in examining foreign affairs, and we’ve managed to cook something good up. Need to polish the work a fair bit, can’t be flashing my cards too soon. But it’s an extensive essay which examines Ukraine’s societal trends going back to since the fall of the USSR. I won’t drop it all at once, but it will be a gradual sort of thing.)

Now who isn't answering the question.



Gotta love Firebush’s constant, “please wait for my awesome response!”



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:

Gotta love Firebush’s constant, “please wait for my awesome response!”

gotta keep y’all on the edge of your seat. I updated my response to show that yes, I actually do have something. And that’s literally barely even a fraction of all that I have ready.



firebush03 said:
the-pi-guy said:

Where is the evidence that Zelenskyy wants peace talks and that the US is preventing that?

Republicans in particular have been pushing against any aid. Many of them literally consider Russia to be allies.  

How stalled U.S. aid for Ukraine exemplifies GOP’s softening stance on Russia

Republicans Block Aid To Ukraine

Zelenskyy himself came to the US to lobby Congress multiple times to beg for aid. 

2022

September 2023

December 2023

America being a superpower isn't proof in and of itself of anything. Plenty of things still happen without the US and even against what the US asks for.  

You're arguing that countries are having their hand forced by America with no evidence. 

Also, I will immediately confess that yes, Zelenski since April 2022 has not been interested in peace talks. I got that detail wrong. However, to give just a taste of what I’ve got, the reason behind Zelenski’s shift in tone from being pro-peace to pro-war relates to Boris Johnson’s unplanned visit to convince Zelenski that the U.S. and U.K. will supply Ukraine all the resource they’ll need to fight off Russia. Very reputable sources from across Europe confirm that Zelenski was at the verge of reach a peace agreement, but talks immediately ceased following Boris’ affirmation. Which is entirely reasonable, especially noting all the pressure Zelenski was dealing with from nationalistic forces — who had by that point been enlisted and therefore armed — who posed a threat of coup.

Also, I will immediately confess that yes, Zelenski since April 2022 has not been interested in peace talks. I got that detail wrong.

You get a lot wrong, would help if you researched stuff before posting.

The reason behind Zelenski’s shift in tone from being pro-peace to pro-war relates to Boris Johnson’s unplanned visit to convince Zelenski

Literally debunked on this very page.

Who are these "reputable sources" more reputable than Dmytro Kuleba, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine.

U.S. and U.K. will supply Ukraine all the resource they’ll need to fight off Russia

Which is a good thing, since it was that or we let Ukraine get taken over by Russia.

This was Ukraine during the early stages of the war, Russia was attempting to take everything up to Kyiv and Odessa, the ONLY reason they pulled back was because they got shredded, firstly in an attempt to take Odesa they suffered significant losses trying to get by Mykolaiv and their assault on Kyiv was an utter shitshow and Ukraine defence proved to be more formidable.

You'd also know that Russia wants to take Odesa to cut Ukraine off from the Black Sea and also taking Odesa links Russia to Transnistria where Russian troops are currently stationed.

 

Wonder why they'd want to do that, Lol. Anyone who has witnessed Ukraine vs Russia since 2014, Russia's influence in Donbas and stealing of Crimea knows why Russia would like to link up to Transnistria, Moldova will be next, the exact same playbook as Ukraine and Georgia, cause a little conflict in a breakaway region and then take more and more.

Which is entirely reasonable, especially noting all the pressure Zelenski was dealing with from nationalistic forces — who had by that point been enlisted and therefore armed — who posed a threat of coup.

Nationalist = Being angry that another country has invaded your country, raped and killed your people, stolen your land, destroyed your home? Of course Ukraine is nationalistic when they have a neighbour constantly attacking them, threatening them, saying they don't exist, calling them animals, any country in the world would be just as nationalistic considering the circumstances.

Ukrainian Nationalism is very much a direct result of Russian Imperialism.

So yes, if Zelenskyy did surrender Ukraine, he very may well have been tossed out of government since Ukraine has done it before against their leader who was seen as pro-Russian (Euromaiden) but that's not why Zelenskyy has done it, Zelenskyy is just as much of a proud Ukrainian as the rest of them, he knows the Russian peace talks would only end up delaying the inevitable, Russia would take more at a later date.

The terms of Russia's "peace" agreement are utter horseshit.

If you've followed the war, which you clearly haven't, you'd know that Zelenskyy has already laid out his peace terms.

  1. Safety of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant
  2. Protecting food distribution
  3. Restoration of Ukraine's energy infrastructure
  4. Release of prisoners and return of Ukrainian children deported to Russia
  5. Restoration of Ukrainian borders prior to the 2014 annexation of Crimea
  6. Full withdrawal of Russian military forces from Ukraine
  7. Prosecution of war crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine
  8. Remediation of ecological damage caused by the Destruction of the Kakhovka Dam
  9. Guarantees against future aggression
  10. A multilateral peace conference

Ukraine's Peace Formula - Wikipedia

If Russia wants peace, all they need to do is leave Ukraine, it's that simple.

But apparently Ukraine, the defender, must be the one to make all the compromises against the aggressor, makes sense.

Also, Bucha Massacre was one of the things that seriously hurt peace talks, as Russia committed a disgusting atrocity during so called "peace" talks.

As for NATO

Vladimir Putin's chief envoy on Ukraine told the Russian leader as the war began that he had struck a provisional deal with Kyiv that would satisfy Russia's demand that Ukraine stay out of NATO, opens new tab, but Putin rejected it and pressed ahead with his military campaign, according to three people close to the Russian leadership.

Exclusive: As War Began, Putin Rejected a Ukraine Peace Deal Recommended By Aide | Reuters

Peskov Saying There Can Be No Peace Plan Unless Ukraine Surrenders Claim to Crimea, Donetsk Oblast, Luhansk Oblast, Kherson Oblast, Zaporizhzhia Oblast

“There can be no peace plan for Ukraine that does not take into account today’s realities regarding Russian territory, with the entry of four regions into Russia,” Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Wednesday. “Plans that do not take these realities into account cannot be peaceful.”

Voanews.com

Funny that considering they don't even control the capital of Kherson or Zaporizhzhia but that's beside the point.

Putin Calls Again For Overthrow of Ukrainian Government – Baltimore Council on Foreign Affairs

You want to see what Russia's true goals are? How about you take it from the horses mouth.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 17 May 2024