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Forums - Politics Discussion - Biden vs Trump 2024 Political Platforms, Policies and Issues

the-pi-guy said:
Chrkeller said:

And none of the luck erases hours of studying, working many times to 10 pm, giving up weekends for more work and saving 20% my entire life (even when money was tight and I went without).

The 'success is luck' is liberal horseshit.

Most people earn their success, like I have.  

I did not say success is luck.  Success is not 100% luck or 100% hard work. 

You are the product of both. 


You did not birth yourself, you didn't change your own diaper. 

You didn't choose your parents, or your genes. None of that was your own hard work.  

Everyone in the world is a mix of both circumstance and their own work. Without one or the other, you wouldn't exist.

Sure.  And it is 90/10.  I know a whole bunch of lucky people who aren't successful.  

There is no replacement for hardwork..  



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Chrkeller said:
the-pi-guy said:

Uh yes you did. 

You were lucky to be born.

You were lucky to be born not overly handicapped. 

You were lucky to not be born in a different country where things would be substantially harder, if it were possible at all. 

You were lucky to be born (at least reasonably) intelligent.

Working hard to do something, doesn't erase the billion advantages you had.

And none of the luck erases hours of studying, working many times to 10 pm, giving up weekends for more work and saving 20% my entire life (even when money was tight and I went without).

The 'success is luck' is liberal horseshit.

Most people earn their success, like I have.  

okay so what were the conditions you were raised in? It must’ve been the Bronx, in an education system which care next to nothing about whether you passed or failed, in a household which was so short on money that you needed to shift focus from school to working at a McDonalds starting from age 16 (or maybe drug dealing if you were looking to really take a risk). You worked so hard…but so did the kid whose family lived in poverty. Yet you receive your wealth, and the other now has to suffer. How is this fair? Oh yeah! Also, you were heard of a store getting robbed? What about a gang shooting? Yeah, those are all a consequence of shoving these suffering folks to the outskirts of society. People don’t do these sorts of things because they’re stupid. They do it because they‘re desperate in a world which has no interest in helping them.



Ryuu96 said:
firebush03 said:

"You are correct in stating that Russia has no excuse in invading another country. We agree on this."

Great, so stop making excuses for Russia's invasion and blaming anyone else but Russia.

Do you believe that we should consider the Ukrainian-Russian Conflict from a perspective which examines what led to Russia committing such an inexcusable deed?

The reason is a land grab, as simple as that, an attempt to restore Soviet Union's glory, as Russia themselves have alluded to and Russian State Media has parroted, Ukraine as a country does not exist and always belonged to Russia according to them. NATO is not the reason for the invasion but it is the thing that could stop an invasion.

I don't give a shit about the NATO excuse as a reason, I don't get to fly over to America and punch you in the face because I claim I feel threatened by you.

"As well history will inevitably repeat itself."

  • Like when Russia invaded Crimea and the world did nothing ultimately leading them to attempting to take the rest of Ukraine?
  • Like when Russia invaded Georgia and the world did nothing?
  • Like when Russia invaded Chechnya and the world did nothing?

"Never again" is a motto used after WW2 because we must not let history repeat itself. People believe that standing up to evil like Russia brings us closer to WW3 but I would argue the opposite, sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring evil only allows it to grow stronger and more embolden. When it knows that nobody will stand up to it, it will become even more greedy. The last time America tried to ignore a major conflict, they found that eventually, evil came to them, when Japan bombed Pearl Harbour.

"I don’t think you want another war to emerge which could’ve potentially been avoided had one country taken different steps to address the issue."

Another war will almost certainly happen if Russia takes Ukraine, Russia right now is in war economy mode, its entire country is focused on one thing now, that is war, Putin's ambitions don't stop with Ukraine, he has already laid the groundwork with Georgia (see Abkhazia and South Ossetia) and Moldova (see Transnistria) not to mention Russian officials routinely threaten Baltic States.

Same logic they use against all former Soviet-States is that they don't exist or never officially left the Soviet Union.

There is nothing Ukraine could have done to avoid Russia invading them and in case you aren't aware, the invasion started in 2014 with Crimea, another time Russia justified as invading because "they never officially gave it over to Ukraine" even though, they did, Lol.

The only way Ukraine can avoid further conflict with Russia is by joining NATO.

We've already been through this shit before, Russia invaded Crimea and people like you were screaming "Just let Russia have it! We need peace!" and so our response was pathetic and then in 2022, Russia decides it's time to invade the rest of Ukraine, despite the fact that Ukraine couldn't join NATO because they were already in active conflict with Russia.

People like you are so utterly naïve that you think the agreement which Russia wants with Ukraine (de-militarisation, a block from joining NATO) won't just result in Russia reforming their battered army and trying again a few years later to take more of Ukraine, and when they've taken more, I'm sure people like you once again will scream "WE NEED PEACE, IT'S NATO'S FAULT. LET RUSSIA HAVE IT" and Russia will gain even more land, bit by bit, invasion by invasion, they will gain land, why do I know this? Because they've literally already done it!

I consider you a victim blamer because you are saying it's Ukraine's fault for wanting to be in NATO while Ukrainians are being slaughtered everyday.

The rest of this section of your post is confusing the hell out of me.

Zelenski wants peace talks. The U.S. shuts them down.

Once again, acting like Ukraine has no agency. Zelenskyy* abandoned peace talks with Russia a while ago because they were bullshit "peace" talks which required full capitulation by Ukraine, they abandoned the peace talks because Russia continued committing atrocities during them, they abandoned peace talks because how can they now make peace with Russia after Bucha? After Mariupol? After Bakhmut? After Russia has slaughtered thousands of Ukrainians, destroyed their home, only for Zelenskyy to turn around and say "you all died for nothing, Russia wins"

There you go, from Zelenskyy himself. Once again you spread nonsense Russian propaganda.

Let me use my example earlier, if someone broke into your neighbours home, slaughtered half his family, then demanded the neighbour accept peace talks wherein the murderer would be given half the house and a promise by the neighbour not to go to the police and surrender all his weapons, would you be telling him to accept that offer and blaming him for not accepting it?

Lots of countries in Europe are having their hand forced into the conflict, though I will not deny there are many — especially those along Russia’s border — who are now strong supporters of Ukraine in this conflict. However, America does objective have the most power, for they are the global superpower.

I can assure you, the Baltics and most of Europe does not give a fuck what America wants in this regard.

alright, I’m done having this conversation with you. I asked three questions, and you answered zero. I took thirty minutes out of my day to type all those remarks, with great thought put into every sentence, and you decide to blindly ignore all my points and resort to spitting up the same lines you’ve always been. If you don’t want to be helped, then I’m truly very sorry. I’ll be discussing with others in the forum from now on, unless you are open to having a good-faith discussion (in which case, let it be known in your response to this post, and I will very happily accept it :) ). I made several concessions, and tried to initiate fair talks. And yet you refuse to back down for even a few seconds to listen to what I’ve got to say. I’ll be chatting with Pi-Guy and dinosaur man from now on when it comes to foreign affairs. I don’t like to be this way, but I feel this is ultimately the best call for my sake.



[I haven’t ignored it. I specifically told you in the past that I’m not going to waste my time reading your giant articles of information. You refused to meet me where I was at, and so I chose not to read them. So I don’t even know your stances.]

This part deserves being singled out on its own.

Says it all really, I'm wasting my time, if you aren't going to bother reading my posts (STILL) then why do you expect me to take yours seriously? What are you even talking about that I refused to meet you where you was at? You posted something and I responded and then you cried "I'm not reading that! It's too long!"

The fact that you say you don't even know my stances is just...JFC...Are you seriously going to post this ground-breaking post that you keep teasing without reading a single thing that I posted? If so then don't bother, go and waste someone else's time. I'll give you time to address Firebush's points, he didn't write long texts so you have no excuse to ignore him.



firebush03 said:
Chrkeller said:

And none of the luck erases hours of studying, working many times to 10 pm, giving up weekends for more work and saving 20% my entire life (even when money was tight and I went without).

The 'success is luck' is liberal horseshit.

Most people earn their success, like I have.  

okay so what were the conditions you were raised in? It must’ve been the Bronx, in an education system which care next to nothing about whether you passed or failed, in a household which was so short on money that you needed to shift focus from school to working at a McDonalds starting from age 16 (or maybe drug dealing if you were looking to really take a risk). You worked so hard…but so did the kid whose family lived in poverty. Yet you receive your wealth, and the other now has to suffer. How is this fair? Oh yeah! Also, you were heard of a store getting robbed? What about a gang shooting? Yeah, those are all a consequence of shoving these suffering folks to the outskirts of society. People don’t do these sorts of things because they’re stupid. They do it because they‘re desperate in a world which has no interest in helping them.

We will have to agree to disagree.

I know people who had less advantages than I did but are more successful.  I know people who had way more advantages than I did but are far less successful than I am....  not everything is "society's fault."  Personal responsibility is real.

And I won't go into details but a good portion of my family is trailer trash, some of which are in jail.  I don't owe them shit.  



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Chrkeller said:

Sure.  And it is 90/10.  I know a whole bunch of lucky people who aren't successful.  

There is no replacement for hardwork..  

Whatever made up numbers make you feel better. 

Chrkeller said:

I know a whole bunch of lucky people who aren't successful.   

Yet according to you they weren't even lucky enough to have role models that helped them realize the importance of hardwork.  



Chrkeller said:

We will have to agree to disagree.

I know people who had less advantages than I did but are more successful.  I know people who had way more advantages than I did but are far less successful than I am....  not everything is "society's fault."  Personal responsibility is real.

And I won't go into details but a good portion of my family is trailer trash, some of which are in jail.  I don't owe them shit.  

Okay. I won’t fight you on it. Though — in response to your last remark — I would encourage you to show some care to those who raised you from the womb. Doesn’t matter if you own them anything, family is important. I say this having been raised in a household filled with loving siblings and parents and grandparents and etc etc. I understand this may not be the case for you, and truly do sympathize with you if this is in fact not your situation, but do try to mend ties if at all possible. (though I also understand some people have no interest in resolving conflict…this is why I add “if at all possible”. You’ll have to wait for them.)



firebush03 said:
Ryuu96 said:

-Snip-

alright, I’m done having this conversation with you. I asked three questions, and you answered zero. I took thirty minutes out of my day to type all those remarks, with great thought put into every sentence, and you decide to blindly ignore all my points and resort to spitting up the same lines you’ve always been. If you don’t want to be helped, then I’m truly very sorry. I’ll be discussing with others in the forum from now on, unless you are open to having a good-faith discussion (in which case, let it be known in your response to this post, and I will very happily accept it :) ). I made several concessions, and tried to initiate fair talks. And yet you refuse to back down for even a few seconds to listen to what I’ve got to say. I’ll be chatting with Pi-Guy and dinosaur man from now on when it comes to foreign affairs. I don’t like to be this way, but I feel this is ultimately the best call for my sake.

💀💀💀 Lmao.

I responded to your points and I even provided straight up evidence countering some of your other points. It took me less than 1 minute to provide evidence against your claim that Zelenskyy wants "peace" and America is blocking him. I provided my thoughts to your questions, it's not my fault you don't like what you read, if you even read it because you've already admitted multiple times that you don't read peoples posts.

Isn't it funny that we're still waiting for your responses to Pi-Guy and Zorg (why do you keep calling him Mr Dinosaur Man).

But okay, respond to Zorg then. Today. What limit does your reading ability have? Maybe people who debate you in the future deserve to know, does it cut off at 300 words? 500 words? I think as a Mod I can accept you wasting my time to a certain extent but if I see you whip out the "I ain't reading that!" card to anyone else in this thread then you won't like the response.

You better have a good response to Zorg and I want it by the end of today. You no longer get to use the excuse "I'm a Maths PHD! I have no time to debate!" It was you who chose to come into this thread, generalise the thread, insult a user, make an assertion which you barely backed up and then dip out for weeks on the promise you would respond, only to return and still not reply to the things you promised to respond to back then.

I'll give you an out, make things easier for you, don't bother responding to me when you've said once again that you won't bother reading my posts because they're too long but you have zero excuse for Zorg, Pi-Guy, Rol, etc. You don't get to come in here, drop a bomb and then run away. Respond to them or get out.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 17 May 2024

firebush03 said:
Chrkeller said:

We will have to agree to disagree.

I know people who had less advantages than I did but are more successful.  I know people who had way more advantages than I did but are far less successful than I am....  not everything is "society's fault."  Personal responsibility is real.

And I won't go into details but a good portion of my family is trailer trash, some of which are in jail.  I don't owe them shit.  

Okay. I won’t fight you on it. Though — in response to your last remark — I would encourage you to show some care to those who raised you from the womb. Doesn’t matter if you own them anything, family is important. I say this having been raised in a household filled with loving siblings and parents and grandparents and etc etc. I understand this may not be the case for you, and truly do sympathize with you if this is in fact not your situation, but do try to mend ties if at all possible. (though I also understand some people have no interest in resolving conflict…this is why I add “if at all possible”. You’ll have to wait for them.)

It is all good.  People are entitled and should be respected for their opinions.  Different views are what makes the world interesting.



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firebush03 said:

Except I'm not parroting nobodies lines except what I feel is right. That Russia has no excuse to invade another country on the premise that said country may or may not have in the future joined a defensive organisation, especially when Russia themselves have contradicted that narrative multiple times and used dozens of other excuses for their invasion. [You are correct in stating that Russia has no excuse in invading another country. We agree on this. So let’s focus on where we disagree: Do you believe that we should consider the Ukrainian-Russian Conflict from a perspective which examines what led to Russia committing such an inexcusable deed? In my opinion, I’d argue so. It’s good to understand the underlying root cause of an issue, otherwise we won’t be able to most sufficiently address it, as well history will inevitably repeat itself. I don’t think you want another war to emerge which could’ve potentially been avoided had one country taken different steps to address the issue. Do you disagree with these statements? I’m laying some groundwork here, hear with me. I’ll get to the facts later on.]

But here's you straight up parroting the victim blaming bullshit [This is a sign that you have underlying motives for not wanting to consider alternative perspectives, for otherwise you’ll view yourself as being a victim blamer. Drop this perspective, and our conversation will truly be productive. Do you believe yourself to be rational in your thoughts? If so, there’s no need to come up with labels for alternative beliefs. The evidence you have behind your believes should be sufficient in defending you claims.] that it's Ukraine's fault [I retract all my prior statements for they were not thoroughly fact-checked, hence might be incorrect. We can think of this as a “reset” to our discussion.] for being invaded because it wanted to join NATO. I'm not an idiot who needs people to feed me lines, I can formulate my own thoughts and opinions. You'd even find me criticising US's approach to this war but once again you've ignored all that. [I haven’t ignored it. I specifically told you in the past that I’m not going to waste my time reading your giant articles of information. You refused to meet me where I was at, and so I chose not to read them. So I don’t even know your stances.]

Many times throughout history conflicts have been simply one bad guy wanting to achieve bad things, Hitler for example. [Okay, but does this mean we should approach all conflict from this black-and-white lens? Because at the end of the day, it is simply a lens of perspective. You can choose to view it from the lens of “Putin = Bad!”, or you could consider the more nuanced perspective of examining the interests of both sides.]

"Biden and Putin always talk about wanting to engage in peace talks" - Once again you're cutting out Ukraine from the conversation. [Zelenski wants peace talks. The U.S. shuts them down. I don’t include Ukraine for this reason. I will provide evidence behind this assertion later today.]

This is Ukraine vs Russia, not America vs Russia and there's about a dozen countries in Europe taking a tougher stance than America on Russia. [Lots of countries in Europe are having their hand forced into the conflict, though I will not deny there are many — especially those along Russia’s border — who are now strong supporters of Ukraine in this conflict. However, America does objective have the most power, for they are the global superpower.]

Where is the evidence that Zelenskyy wants peace talks and that the US is preventing that?

Republicans in particular have been pushing against any aid. Many of them literally consider Russia to be allies.  

How stalled U.S. aid for Ukraine exemplifies GOP’s softening stance on Russia

Republicans Block Aid To Ukraine

Zelenskyy himself came to the US to lobby Congress multiple times to beg for aid. 

2022

September 2023

December 2023

America being a superpower isn't proof in and of itself of anything. Plenty of things still happen without the US and even against what the US asks for.  

You're arguing that countries are having their hand forced by America with no evidence.