By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sales Discussion - Famitsu Sales: Week 52 & 53, 2023 (Dec 18 - Dec 31)

DonFerrari said:
Phenomajp13 said:

My bad on the first part, I didn't mean it that way just an example of things being subjective for many different reasons (power, convenience). Software sales being lower than WiiU and Vita is objective. Even with PS market being 50% for example, that would only match WiiU. Don't you think that should still be considered bad? Or do we now consider matching WiiU an accomplishment? 

As for the source, I asked and I would have to link to the forum because the date was compiled using data from Mediacreate among other sources, would that be allowed? This is getting pointless though because you are just using the good old "we don't have the full data, so no definitive things can be stated" escuse. The PS5's performance in the top 30 on a weekly basis is attorcious, no way to spin that. It has sold more than enough hardware to have competing software. Do you think Switch 2 will struggle this mightly in its first couple weeks? It's userbase will be lower than PS5s, so its software should do just as poorly I guess. 

Great data, only issue is that you also said Xbox had better attach ratios (which you didn't bother to compare) and regardless the only thing you proved was poorer selling consoles like PS3 and PS4 have higher attach ratios. Simple math could have taught you that, the denomiator in a fraction/ratio is higher for higher selling consoles because the denominator is the hardware base. Switch will definitely challenge PS1 and PS2, also PS3 will not be out of reach at the end of its life. So is Switch mediocre in attach ratios due to just PS4? PS5 isn't mediocre in Japan software sales just because of Switch, I have been comparing to Vita and WiiU which are the bottom of the barrel. Also, you are incorrect about digital only games being included in Switch total software. Games with physical and digital releases are included in Switch total software but games that were only released on eshop are not included. I assume Nintendo does this because they are likely very cheap (mobile like games) and contribute low revenue. I don't know for sure though, but every Nintendo quarterly thread I have read has this notation. So Switch is certainly missing a chunk of software that Sony includes. What do you think the Switch's attach ratio will finish at (according to Nintendo's data, so not including the unknown digital only games)?

If total SW of PS5 is lower than PS4 yes I would consider it bad since WW it seems to be slightly better (independent of digital attach ratio), the problem is we don't have the data to claim it.

You think looking at the ranking is enough and I told you that if you looked at the Switch rank of million sellers you would have only 7 3rd parties, that would say that 3rd party sales is basically non-existent, would you agree with that? If not, why do you think looking at the 30 rank will tell the full story and show close to full sales of PS5 SW sales? In Europe a lot of big IPs were quite low on the annual rank. FF16 (32), NBA (33), Dead Island 2 (35), Starfield (37), The Crew (38), Avatar (48), MK1 (53), Just Dance (82), SF6 (98), all those would be lost on a top 30 but didn't sell poorly at all.

For the top 20 of 2023 on Switch for Circana (Americas) there is only 1 3rd party title.

PS attach ratio have been increasing each gen PS2 sold 50% more than PS1 and still had a bigger attach ratio, PS4 sold 30% more than PS3 and have a substancial increase in attach ratio to PS3. Yes the bigger the userbase the most likely lower attach ratio due to more casuals. Regarding X360 the data was here on the site for a long time https://www.vgchartz.com/charts/platform_totals/TieRatio.php dunno the level of imprecision (because of the increase in digital sales they stopped tracking sometime during past gen, but for PS360 era those numbers were considered credible) and as you can see X360 was bigger than PS3. For other Xbox platforms I won't bother going through reports as MS isn't very transparent and any source would be indirect or trying to sum from leaks and so if you want to think it suddenly stopped being of the 10-12 range ok. But if you look the link you'll see that generally Nintendo attach ratio is lower than the other 3 and if you look for the portables they are much much lower than the consoles.

Switch 2 most likely won't have issue selling SW in Japan, if it is a successful system with similar portable focus it will keep a strong position in Japan. 

If you look at page 13 of their report (https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2023/230509_3e.pdf) you'll see that for digital sales they count digital only titles -"Sales of downloadable versions of packaged software, download-only software, add-on content and Nintendo Switch Online, etc"

I would think Switch will close its lifetime near 10 attach ratio.

Bro you are  literally argueing that the PS5 makes up the gap with PS4 like the PS4 doesn't also have games charting below the top 30. On top of that, the top 30 has a low bar to reach and PS5 is struggling to keep more than 1. Obviously those games below the top 30 in a single region hardly makes up such a large gap on top of the PS4 also having software below the top 30. I would even argue the PS4 had more competition from 3DS, Vita, and WiiU than PS5 has against just Switch. More Nintendo games charting during 3DS/WiiU era along with Vita games than now but that would be interesting to comparison. 

Switch 3rd party sales could be considered mediocre but then again, so is its 3rd party support. So is that on the userbase or the 3rd parties lack of support? PS5 on the other hand has the support and sales the games at horrific level. Such as below WiiU and Vita. Mediocre is my description of the platform as a whole in Japan with good hardware sales (possibly due to exporting) and terrible software sales (possibly also due to exporting). Your fascination with Switch is irrelevant to the what we are discussing in a Japan sales thread. Switch will be the most successful platform in Japanese history, you trying to direct our attention to Switch's 3rd party global software sales and attach ratio is called deflection.

Your point on attach ratio going up with each passing gen for PS is interesting, I genuiely did not notice that. Thats a good call out. That doesn't prove it continued for Xbox though, the brand has sank massive since then. It will have an advantage over Switch for having a far smaller userbase but still receiving major 3rd party support but I highly doubt PS hasn't taken a good share of its software sales from Xbox. I do think Switch is competitive with those Xbox consoles attach ratio wise because PS since Xbox 360 has been dominate over the Xbox brand.

As for your Switch link, that is income. So Nintendo seems to include for digital only games but everything involving unit sales seems to lack digital only games. such as this I found on page 9, (chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2023/231107e.pdf), the notation says does not included download only software. This makes since because every blurb I see that does include digital only software also mentions including Nintendo Switch online, so clearly they are talking income. When talking software sales, Nintendo seems to include digital only software with income but does not include digital only software when talking units. I seriously think its because the unit sales would be far higher than the income they generate, so basically cheap mobile games like we see on Android and iOS. But those games would raise the attach ratio.

Last edited by Phenomajp13 - on 18 January 2024

Around the Network
Phenomajp13 said:
DonFerrari said:

If total SW of PS5 is lower than PS4 yes I would consider it bad since WW it seems to be slightly better (independent of digital attach ratio), the problem is we don't have the data to claim it.

You think looking at the ranking is enough and I told you that if you looked at the Switch rank of million sellers you would have only 7 3rd parties, that would say that 3rd party sales is basically non-existent, would you agree with that? If not, why do you think looking at the 30 rank will tell the full story and show close to full sales of PS5 SW sales? In Europe a lot of big IPs were quite low on the annual rank. FF16 (32), NBA (33), Dead Island 2 (35), Starfield (37), The Crew (38), Avatar (48), MK1 (53), Just Dance (82), SF6 (98), all those would be lost on a top 30 but didn't sell poorly at all.

For the top 20 of 2023 on Switch for Circana (Americas) there is only 1 3rd party title.

PS attach ratio have been increasing each gen PS2 sold 50% more than PS1 and still had a bigger attach ratio, PS4 sold 30% more than PS3 and have a substancial increase in attach ratio to PS3. Yes the bigger the userbase the most likely lower attach ratio due to more casuals. Regarding X360 the data was here on the site for a long time https://www.vgchartz.com/charts/platform_totals/TieRatio.php dunno the level of imprecision (because of the increase in digital sales they stopped tracking sometime during past gen, but for PS360 era those numbers were considered credible) and as you can see X360 was bigger than PS3. For other Xbox platforms I won't bother going through reports as MS isn't very transparent and any source would be indirect or trying to sum from leaks and so if you want to think it suddenly stopped being of the 10-12 range ok. But if you look the link you'll see that generally Nintendo attach ratio is lower than the other 3 and if you look for the portables they are much much lower than the consoles.

Switch 2 most likely won't have issue selling SW in Japan, if it is a successful system with similar portable focus it will keep a strong position in Japan. 

If you look at page 13 of their report (https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2023/230509_3e.pdf) you'll see that for digital sales they count digital only titles -"Sales of downloadable versions of packaged software, download-only software, add-on content and Nintendo Switch Online, etc"

I would think Switch will close its lifetime near 10 attach ratio.

Bro you are  literally argueing that the PS5 makes up the gap with PS4 like the PS4 doesn't also have games charting below the top 30. On top of that, the top 30 has a low bar to reach and PS5 is struggling to keep more than 1. Obviously those games below the top 30 in a single region hardly makes up such a large gap on top of the PS4 also having software below the top 30. I would even argue the PS4 had more competition from 3DS, Vita, and WiiU than PS5 has against just Switch. More Nintendo games charting during 3DS/WiiU era along with Vita games than now but that would be interesting to comparison. 

Switch 3rd party sales could be considered mediocre but then again, so is its 3rd party support. So is that on the userbase or the 3rd parties lack of support? PS5 on the other hand has the support and sales the games at horrific level. Such as below WiiU and Vita. Mediocre is my description of the platform as a whole in Japan with good hardware sales (possibly due to exporting) and terrible software sales (possibly also due to exporting). Your fascination with Switch is irrelevant to the what we are discussing in a Japan sales thread. Switch will be the most successful platform in Japanese history, you trying to direct our attention to Switch's 3rd party global software sales and attach ratio is called deflection.

Your point on attach ratio going up with each passing gen for PS is interesting, I genuiely did not notice that. Thats a good call out. That doesn't prove it continued for Xbox though, the brand has sank massive since then. It will have an advantage over Switch for having a far smaller userbase but still receiving major 3rd party support but I highly doubt PS hasn't taken a good share of its software sales from Xbox. I do think Switch is competitive with those Xbox consoles attach ratio wise because PS since Xbox 360 has been dominate over the Xbox brand.

As for your Switch link, that is income. So Nintendo seems to include for digital only games but everything involving unit sales seems to lack digital only games. such as this I found on page 9, (chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2023/231107e.pdf), the notation says does not included download only software. This makes since because every blurb I see that does include digital only software also mentions including Nintendo Switch online, so clearly they are talking income. When talking software sales, Nintendo seems to include digital only software with income but does not include digital only software when talking units. I seriously think its because the unit sales would be far higher than the income they generate, so basically cheap mobile games like we see on Android and iOS. But those games would raise the attach ratio.

Witcher 3 seems to be around 1M sold on Switch, while on total it crossed 30M so is it the game fault, lack of support or Nintendo userbase not buying 3rd party games to a similar degree?

It isn't a deflection to Switch, it is showing you that your use of "objective" evidence to claim mediocracy is fault. As Shtinamin said, if you look at performance of the system or its line of system PS5 had the best year for PS in 20 years, it would seem mediocre compared to Switch though (except as I told you time and again that is a pointless comparison). For the rest I'm waiting the numbers instead of "trust me rank sum is all you need".

Yes I don't have the data (maybe I could get, but I'm not much interested, shadow probably have it) and said that if you want to disregard Xbox attach ratio you can. But data wise it is both true that Nintendo in general have a lower attach ratio than PS and also that handhelds have a lower attach ratio than consoles, and that is historical. If I was to do the FAULTY comparison of attach ratio of PS to Nintendo handhelds to claim Nintendo is bad it would be that a faulty comparison that fail to even address the differences between the systems, similar to claiming Switch is bad/weak/mediocre compared to PS5 because it also fails to understand the difference between both, but you want to keep on claiming PS5 Japan SW is terrible without real data, based on its ranking numbers against a system that dominates the chart.

The link you sent didn't work out, I think because of redirections, but seems like using only www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2023/231107e.pdf goes to the same document. And yes on its last page it says it doesn't count download only, off that they consider the revenue but not the unit count. So it would be very hard to know how much that represent but for it to get near the PS4 attach ratio of 12 on its 7th year you would add 40% of those download only title and to be honest I don't think it would add more than 10%.

For Sony I dunno if they count every single SW out there (maybe they do), but seems odd to not consider download only that cost 30+ USD (well AW2 is 70 but download only)



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."