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Tober said:
RolStoppable said:

No, the message that is blatant out in the open in that quote is that the blame should be pushed on the people who deserve the blame instead of falling for the scapegoat.

It's the same game in every country. Wealth is extracted from the middle and lower classes via asset inflation, i.e. high prices for rent and housing which is a basic necessity. Then comes a political party that puts the blame on immigrants because xenophobia is a very common human instinct that also very commonly overrides rational thinking; the very same politicians often happen to directly benefit from asset inflation. They are the cause of the problem, but manage to sell themselves as the solution despite having no intent whatsoever to fix the problem.

How this works can be illustrated with a cookie plate analogy. Suppose there are four people sitting at a table, each one representing a different class of society: The rich, the middle, the lower and the immigrant. You also have a plate with 20 cookies sitting on the table, representing the wealth of a nation. When it's time to divide the wealth, the rich immediately pockets 18 cookies, points his finger at the immigrant and says to the middle and lower classes, "Watch out for the immigrant, he's going to take your two cookies!" - The depressing fact is that all too often the common people forget that there are 20 cookies in the first place and let the true culprit off the hook.

The culprit?

Let's say I'm going to be brave and start my own business. With a lot of risk, sweat and tears I manage it to become successful. After a few decades of hard work, I become financial independent. I become rich. My family is now safe from financial concerns.... Now I'm to blame that someone else is poor?

Pointing a finger at someone else is never a good idea. It does not matter who it is. Victim mentality never helped anyone.

Your story is missing the part where you are rich enough to own multiple buildings with a bunch of apartments. You then proceed to keep raising the rents every year, to the point where the people living there have to pay you 40-50% of their monthly salary despite them doing honest and hard work. This means that they have no chance to pursue the dream you could go for a few decades earlier, because they have no realistic chance to start their own business anymore, because they are never able to put enough money to start on the side.

When asked why you are charging such high rents, your answer is that all other rich guys do that too, suggesting that your practices can't be unfair, immoral and unjust. This has contributed to today's problem that the rich just keep getting richer while a lot of people are doomed to live from paycheck to paycheck. You belong to the culprits in this scenario.

Your conclusion is very stupid. Pointing out the true causes of problems has always been the foundation of making things better for more people.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV will outsell Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I was wrong.

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Tober said:

Pointing a finger at someone else is never a good idea. It does not matter who it is. Victim mentality never helped anyone.

Plenty of things are other people's fault. 

"Victim mentality" pretty much always gets cherry picked for when people want it to apply. A lot of people who would say the same thing would have absolutely no problem blaming Joe Biden for gas prices or egg prices. 

Our economic systems in general, are dependent on the behaviors of billions of people. How are they spending their money, how are they paying their workers, how much are people willing to pay for a product/service.

Tober said:

Let's say I'm going to be brave and start my own business. With a lot of risk, sweat and tears I manage it to become successful. After a few decades of hard work, I become financial independent. I become rich. My family is now safe from financial concerns.... Now I'm to blame that someone else is poor?

This isn't remotely the kind of scenario that people are talking about. 

There's a huge gap between being financially independent and being a billionaire. It's hard to be a millionaire, but it's reasonably possible if you get into the right career and work hard and everything else. Not guaranteed, and not easy, but it's realistic for someone to make that be a goal.

To become a billionaire on the other hand, pretty much always requires taking advantage of someone's else value. 



EricHiggin said:
Machiavellian said:

Never said negotiate behind closed doors, I said negotiate first before telling the world that you are going to FORCE Canada and Mexico to submit to your demands.  Its much easier to come to an agreement where both parties can say they are in agreement than to first take an aggressive stance than hope they come to the negotiation table.  So now if either country bend the knee, they look weak while Trump gets to take the victory lap.  As I stated, he tried that same tactic with China, you still have not given any indication of why that will work with Canada or is Canada weak and is ready to submit to America rule.

You cannot have a win situation if negotiations start with the American President telling your country to bend the knee first.  This is why your statements just funny to me.  You want so bad to make everything that Trump say and do be the correct course all the while accepting another country trying to make you sub servant at the same time, then proclaiming that the party you support wants independence.  Next you attempt to make it seem like a glorious cooperative plan by Trump to help that party when its clear its not because your conservative party did not respond like it was some type of blessing.

Lol, the only one I see who is on Trump side is you.  You continue to defend Trump stance then proclaim its good for the party you support while Trump plan has nothing to do with your conservative party.  Its you that saying your conservative party can have a mutual working relationship with Trump administration but no where has Trump even shone the slightest that he cares.  He is going to force Canada to bend the knee because it makes him look strong and he loves appearances but somehow you are trying to tell us that is going to be a great situation for Canada and your conservative party "Canada First".  Yeah, good luck with that.

You still seem to be getting ahead of yourself before Trump has served a day in office.  Why don't you wait until he actually implement what he says he is going to do before you give him the victory lap.  Yes, he is president, now the fun part start which is actually performing in that role.  So lets see how well him blanket tariffs against the world going to turn out or will he just wuss out.

I honestly can't believe that orange man bad is still almost always the answer, which just tells me that the left still hasn't learned. I wasn't sure if the next 4 years would be more or less funny than the first 4, but it's definitely looking like it's going to be far more hilarious this time, somehow.

'Canada should become the 51st state and you could be the Governor.' DJT to JT

At the moment, that deal don't sound too bad. Now remove Trudeau from the deal and you'd actually have our attention.

Maybe it'll happen right after Trump buys Greenland... Who knows?

Hmm, not sure what you are on about.  Isn't that exactly what politics is.  Orange man bad, old man bad, black man bad.  It doesn't matter who becomes president the opposing side will see them as being bad.  You seem to be making this all about Trump but in politics the general rule is to always paint a light against the opposing side.  So yes, just like the GOP made everything Biden appear bad, so will the Dems make everything Trump does as bad.  If people lives do not change, then the Dems will be successful because as we have seen, current needs always come front and center.

Yeah, I am sure all Canadians cannot wait to be a vassal state to  the US or better yet, we would just make you a commonwealth like Puerto Rico so instead.  We already have enough states, we just need your money not your votes.

Who knows, if Canadians are like you willing to bend the knee for the US, I am sure we can think of something.



Machiavellian said:

Hmm, not sure what you are on about.  Isn't that exactly what politics is.  Orange man bad, old man bad, black man bad.  It doesn't matter who becomes president the opposing side will see them as being bad.  You seem to be making this all about Trump but in politics the general rule is to always paint a light against the opposing side.  So yes, just like the GOP made everything Biden appear bad, so will the Dems make everything Trump does as bad.  If people lives do not change, then the Dems will be successful because as we have seen, current needs always come front and center.

Yeah, I am sure all Canadians cannot wait to be a vassal state to  the US or better yet, we would just make you a commonwealth like Puerto Rico so instead.  We already have enough states, we just need your money not your votes.

Who knows, if Canadians are like you willing to bend the knee for the US, I am sure we can think of something.

Definitely not this Canadian, nor my wife :p

I cycle along Brock's route in summer

Always a nice reminder Americans are more bark than bite.

Can't wait for the US empire to collapse on it's own hubris.

Trump is not welcome here.



RolStoppable said:
Tober said:

The culprit?

Let's say I'm going to be brave and start my own business. With a lot of risk, sweat and tears I manage it to become successful. After a few decades of hard work, I become financial independent. I become rich. My family is now safe from financial concerns.... Now I'm to blame that someone else is poor?

Pointing a finger at someone else is never a good idea. It does not matter who it is. Victim mentality never helped anyone.

Your story is missing the part where you are rich enough to own multiple buildings with a bunch of apartments. You then proceed to keep raising the rents every year, to the point where the people living there have to pay you 40-50% of their monthly salary despite them doing honest and hard work. This means that they have no chance to pursue the dream you could go for a few decades earlier, because they have no realistic chance to start their own business anymore, because they are never able to put enough money to start on the side.

When asked why you are charging such high rents, your answer is that all other rich guys do that too, suggesting that your practices can't be unfair, immoral and unjust. This has contributed to today's problem that the rich just keep getting richer while a lot of people are doomed to live from paycheck to paycheck. You belong to the culprits in this scenario.

Your conclusion is very stupid. Pointing out the true causes of problems has always been the foundation of making things better for more people.

Ok you generalize all rich people and trow them in the same bucket, labeling them as the problem. Then take this opinion in justifying my take as 'being very stupid'.

If you like a fair and open minded discussion I'm all here. But your response does not appear to be that open minded, so let's leave it at this.



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SvennoJ said:

Religion, root cause of all evil?


US senator introduces bill to refer to West Bank as Judea and Samaria

Tom Cotton, a staunchly pro-Israel Republican, has put forward a measure that would ban the federal government from referring to the occupied West Bank by its name.

The bill, which is unlikely to pass in the final weeks of the outgoing Congress, would require the government to call the Palestinian territory by a biblical name that the Israelis use – Judea and Samaria.

“The US should stop using the politically charged term West Bank to refer to the biblical heartland of Israel,” Cotton said in a statement.

“The Israeli people have an undeniable and indisputable historical and legal claim over Judea and Samaria, and at this critical moment in history, the United States must reaffirm this.”

There is near international consensus that the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, is an illegally occupied Palestinian territory. Earlier this year, the ICJ – the UN’s top tribunal – ruled that the Israeli occupation is unlawful and demanded its end.


Navajo Nation and others have an undeniable and indisputable claim to NA and NA should from now on be referred to as Turtle Island.

I would argue that Religion is not the cause, it's a vehicle. The cause is the quest for power, influence, independence in good and bad ways. Religion is just used to rile up the masses. At least that's what it was during the European wars in the 16/17th century and we see the same today still in the middle east.



the-pi-guy said:
Tober said:

Pointing a finger at someone else is never a good idea. It does not matter who it is. Victim mentality never helped anyone.

Plenty of things are other people's fault. 

"Victim mentality" pretty much always gets cherry picked for when people want it to apply. A lot of people who would say the same thing would have absolutely no problem blaming Joe Biden for gas prices or egg prices. 

Our economic systems in general, are dependent on the behaviors of billions of people. How are they spending their money, how are they paying their workers, how much are people willing to pay for a product/service.

Tober said:

Let's say I'm going to be brave and start my own business. With a lot of risk, sweat and tears I manage it to become successful. After a few decades of hard work, I become financial independent. I become rich. My family is now safe from financial concerns.... Now I'm to blame that someone else is poor?

This isn't remotely the kind of scenario that people are talking about. 

There's a huge gap between being financially independent and being a billionaire. It's hard to be a millionaire, but it's reasonably possible if you get into the right career and work hard and everything else. Not guaranteed, and not easy, but it's realistic for someone to make that be a goal.

To become a billionaire on the other hand, pretty much always requires taking advantage of someone's else value. 

It's not that long ago that how people are blaming the 'billionaire class', they where blaming the 'millionaire class'. Just a matter of time before starting to blame the 'trillionaire class'.

My response was to RolStoppale, who was calling out 'the rich' in general. As an outsider I view some of the reported salaries and bonuses of US corporate C-level executives as excessive, but it's wrong to think this is universal. We do not see these numbers in Europe or in Japan (e.g.) for that matter. That has less to do with (tax)legislation, but more with culture.

But it is exactly this culture why the 'American dream' is a thing. It certainly is easier to have a startup in the US than it is in Europe, easier to become a millionaire/billionaire. Could it be to become a billionaire usually is to 'create' something? Being an entrepreneur? Look at Musk or Bezos, they took risk. It paid of for them. How many jobs were created in the process.



Tober said:
SvennoJ said:

Religion, root cause of all evil?


US senator introduces bill to refer to West Bank as Judea and Samaria

Tom Cotton, a staunchly pro-Israel Republican, has put forward a measure that would ban the federal government from referring to the occupied West Bank by its name.

The bill, which is unlikely to pass in the final weeks of the outgoing Congress, would require the government to call the Palestinian territory by a biblical name that the Israelis use – Judea and Samaria.

“The US should stop using the politically charged term West Bank to refer to the biblical heartland of Israel,” Cotton said in a statement.

“The Israeli people have an undeniable and indisputable historical and legal claim over Judea and Samaria, and at this critical moment in history, the United States must reaffirm this.”

There is near international consensus that the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, is an illegally occupied Palestinian territory. Earlier this year, the ICJ – the UN’s top tribunal – ruled that the Israeli occupation is unlawful and demanded its end.


Navajo Nation and others have an undeniable and indisputable claim to NA and NA should from now on be referred to as Turtle Island.

I would argue that Religion is not the cause, it's a vehicle. The cause is the quest for power, influence, independence in good and bad ways. Religion is just used to rile up the masses. At least that's what it was during the European wars in the 16/17th century and we see the same today still in the middle east.

True, religion is abused to control the masses. Just like the media nowadays. However religious zealots often have a symbiotic relationship with those in power, even support/appoint those in power. Khamenei being one of them.

I respect the community aspect that religion offers, but at some point you got to ask, is it all worth the destruction and oppression religion has caused and continues to cause. Would people be better off without the crutch of a supreme leader.

Religion is indeed a vehicle, however it's a vehicle that's continuously on a course of oppression. But sure, countries where religion has lost it's grip on society still continue to find ways to oppress people. The Netherlands being one of them. (just mentioning that country since I grew up there and know a bit more of what's going on there)

Btw, the European wars are still ongoing, Ukraine and Eastern Russia are part of Europe after all. And not too long ago Yugoslavia had a war involving religious factions: The Yugoslav wars of the 1990s were fought along ethno-religious lines, with the main religions being Orthodox Christianity, Catholicism, and Islam.

I might have to revise my statement, Europe is the root of all evil. Crusades, Colonialism, Slavery, Apartheid, WW1, WW2, all came from Europe...



Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

I honestly can't believe that orange man bad is still almost always the answer, which just tells me that the left still hasn't learned. I wasn't sure if the next 4 years would be more or less funny than the first 4, but it's definitely looking like it's going to be far more hilarious this time, somehow.

'Canada should become the 51st state and you could be the Governor.' DJT to JT

At the moment, that deal don't sound too bad. Now remove Trudeau from the deal and you'd actually have our attention.

Maybe it'll happen right after Trump buys Greenland... Who knows?

Hmm, not sure what you are on about.  Isn't that exactly what politics is.  Orange man bad, old man bad, black man bad.  It doesn't matter who becomes president the opposing side will see them as being bad.  You seem to be making this all about Trump but in politics the general rule is to always paint a light against the opposing side.  So yes, just like the GOP made everything Biden appear bad, so will the Dems make everything Trump does as bad.  If people lives do not change, then the Dems will be successful because as we have seen, current needs always come front and center.

Yeah, I am sure all Canadians cannot wait to be a vassal state to  the US or better yet, we would just make you a commonwealth like Puerto Rico so instead.  We already have enough states, we just need your money not your votes.

Who knows, if Canadians are like you willing to bend the knee for the US, I am sure we can think of something.

Well SvennoJ initial post was about Trumps latest stance on Canada, so... I've been explaining a more general outlook by Canadians, as one, and what's going on here and yet not only did you seem to always know better, you kept focusing on putting down Trump however you could. Like I don't know what Trump dealing with China has much to do with Canada, unless you think both Countries are similar. Hopefully Trumps not living rent free.

What was all the chatter about not that long ago, from the left, about how the US should make Puerto Rico or even DC States? One minute you want them as States for votes, the next minute, screw their votes, they're just slaves to you for profits. Oh the irony.

Luckily I realize all Americans aren't like you, who don't know or can't take a joke. One of your best comedians is your soon to be again President.



SvennoJ said:
Machiavellian said:

Hmm, not sure what you are on about.  Isn't that exactly what politics is.  Orange man bad, old man bad, black man bad.  It doesn't matter who becomes president the opposing side will see them as being bad.  You seem to be making this all about Trump but in politics the general rule is to always paint a light against the opposing side.  So yes, just like the GOP made everything Biden appear bad, so will the Dems make everything Trump does as bad.  If people lives do not change, then the Dems will be successful because as we have seen, current needs always come front and center.

Yeah, I am sure all Canadians cannot wait to be a vassal state to  the US or better yet, we would just make you a commonwealth like Puerto Rico so instead.  We already have enough states, we just need your money not your votes.

Who knows, if Canadians are like you willing to bend the knee for the US, I am sure we can think of something.

Definitely not this Canadian, nor my wife :p

I cycle along Brock's route in summer

Always a nice reminder Americans are more bark than bite.

Can't wait for the US empire to collapse on it's own hubris.

Trump is not welcome here.

I'd assume you two don't stand behind Trudeau then, because too much more of him and there won't be anyone willing to fight to save this Country. 

The German elite in WWII may have wished they had American weaponry, but they also wished they had Canadian soldiers, unsurprisingly.

America won't ever collapse entirely, but on the path it's been on, it will come apart. What would come of that, would likely be even more worrisome.

See that's the thing. Trump is welcome, because everyone is, or at least was until much more recently, which is exactly what led to sparking this topic. Not like we're the big problem or only problem, as Trump see's America's own southern border as a much bigger concern, but Canada was the point of discussion.

Last edited by EricHiggin - on 06 December 2024