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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Controversial character design changes in game remakes

Chrkeller said:

I always found this conversation intentionally over complicated. Characters should fit the game. If somebody is going into battle a string bikini is childish nonsense. It just doesn't fit the game. Joan of Arc didn't fight half naked, I'm guessing she wore armor.

I'm guessing she didn't battle imaginary creatures in imaginary worlds either.



...to avoid getting banned for inactivity, I may have to resort to comments that are of a lower overall quality and or beneath my moral standards.

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DroidKnight said:
Chrkeller said:

I always found this conversation intentionally over complicated. Characters should fit the game. If somebody is going into battle a string bikini is childish nonsense. It just doesn't fit the game. Joan of Arc didn't fight half naked, I'm guessing she wore armor.

I'm guessing she didn't battle imaginary creatures in imaginary worlds either.

This is irrelevant.  Lara Craft climbing mountains in daisy duke shorts just doesn't fit the atmosphere.  Jill fighting Nemesis in a tube, top, skirt and **** me boots doesn't fit either.  It is about fitting the atmosphere.  Look at Returnal....  she is wearing a space suit, you know because she is in space.  Samus wears a space suit, again this makes sense.  



Chrkeller said:

This is irrelevant.  Lara Craft climbing mountains in daisy duke shorts just doesn't fit the atmosphere.  Jill fighting Nemesis in a tube, top, skirt and **** me boots doesn't fit either.  It is about fitting the atmosphere.  Look at Returnal....  she is wearing a space suit, you know because she is in space.  Samus wears a space suit, again this makes sense.  

More customization options sounds like a good option.  Instead of imposing character designs on the masses, allow settings to accommodate everyone's preferences.  Win win.



...to avoid getting banned for inactivity, I may have to resort to comments that are of a lower overall quality and or beneath my moral standards.

DroidKnight said:
Chrkeller said:

This is irrelevant.  Lara Craft climbing mountains in daisy duke shorts just doesn't fit the atmosphere.  Jill fighting Nemesis in a tube, top, skirt and **** me boots doesn't fit either.  It is about fitting the atmosphere.  Look at Returnal....  she is wearing a space suit, you know because she is in space.  Samus wears a space suit, again this makes sense.  

More customization options sounds like a good option.  Instead of imposing character designs on the masses, allow settings to accommodate everyone's preferences.  Win win.

This is exactly the type of comment I was referring to in my last post. Seeing a deliberate choice a developer made as some kind of conspiratorial "imposition onto the masses" rather than a deliberate and free choice made by the artist/developer. If a simple design choice is all people need to call something an imposition, then I guess every choice any developer makes is an imposition and therefore the point is moot because that's just how the industry works isn't it?



tsogud said:
DroidKnight said:

If I was a gay woman I would still prefer a voluptuous well-figured character.

If I was a gay man, I would like to think I would prefer a beef-cake character, huge muscles and a huge bulge.

I'm not sure what being a straight man has anything to do with anything.

I'm not really into fugly (it's gross), but I'm not going to judge you.

Speaking as a nonbinary bisexual I don't prefer voluptuous well-figured characters or beef-cakes with huge buldges. This isn't porn, it's interactive art. I, like many people, prefer realism in characters in games that go for that art style. That doesn't mean these types of characters don't have a place in games. Games that go for campy or satirical style are an exception, like Catherine or Bayonetta (tho I do think Bayo does a pretty good job with portraying powerful women) but the examples pointed out are from games that originally chased the realism art style and tone as evident by the characters.

Also you can't speak for other people or demographics. You spoke for yourself so the convo will be centered on that. You admitted in your post that it might be sexist and I just confirmed it was. That's all. You think women with flat butts and chests and asymmetrical faces are ugly and you value big jiggly breasts and only want to look at that. Your post literally admitted to objectifying women, albeit virtual women. That's sexist. Sorry, but it is.

Wait, so your position is that large breasted women don't occur in nature?  You realize that kind of statement and sentiment is just as harmful to the mental psyche of the women growing up with larger than average breastsizes as the opposite sentiment was to the smaller breasted women who grew up in the 80's and 90's?  The same way that the latter group felt pressured to get breast enlargements because of perceived "societal preferences", the former group now feel pressured by society to get breast reductions.  Neither is mentally healthy.  It's one thing to complain about an entire game being populated by overly-endowed female physiques, but to target one character here and there and say "this is not realistic" is a bridge too far.  I mean, think of how ridiculous it is to look at this picture from the original Final Fantasy VII and say that Tifa Lockhart isn't a realistic character because her boobs are bigger than Aerith's and Yuffie's, or Jessie, or Elena for that matter.  

You started off by saying what you personally prefer, which is fine.  To each their own as the saying goes.  But you then went on to declare that what you don't prefer has no place in "realistic games".  Sorry, but preference and realism are two very different things.  The human form comes in all shapes and sizes.  It's ironic to choose one of them and call it "unrealistic" while declaring that it only has a place in cartoons and campy artstyles.  All you are really doing is replacing one bias for another.



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Raven said:
DroidKnight said:

More customization options sounds like a good option.  Instead of imposing character designs on the masses, allow settings to accommodate everyone's preferences.  Win win.

This is exactly the type of comment I was referring to in my last post. Seeing a deliberate choice a developer made as some kind of conspiratorial "imposition onto the masses" rather than a deliberate and free choice made by the artist/developer. If a simple design choice is all people need to call something an imposition, then I guess every choice any developer makes is an imposition and therefore the point is moot because that's just how the industry works isn't it?

This thread is about remakes. When you are remaking a game, you shouldn't be making artistic choices that are hugely different from the original game, unless they are optional changes such as new outfits and hairstyles, alongside the original look of the character as an option. The whole point of a remake is that it is the same as the old game but updated to modern graphics quality and modern gameplay mechanics/quality of life improvements. If you want to go make sweeping changes to art design, make it a reboot instead of a remake, like Crystal Dynamics did with Tomb Raider and The Initiative+Crystal are doing with Perfect Dark. You still may piss off some people, but far less people than you would if you are calling the game a remake. The name remake comes with the expectation that it will be the same as the original game but with better graphics and updated gameplay mechanics + quality of life improvements. 



shikamaru317 said:
Raven said:

This is exactly the type of comment I was referring to in my last post. Seeing a deliberate choice a developer made as some kind of conspiratorial "imposition onto the masses" rather than a deliberate and free choice made by the artist/developer. If a simple design choice is all people need to call something an imposition, then I guess every choice any developer makes is an imposition and therefore the point is moot because that's just how the industry works isn't it?

This thread is about remakes. When you are remaking a game, you shouldn't be making artistic choices that are hugely different from the original game, unless they are optional changes such as new outfits and hairstyles, alongside the original look of the character as an option. The whole point of a remake is that it is the same as the old game but updated to modern graphics quality and modern gameplay mechanics/quality of life improvements. If you want to go make sweeping changes to art design, make it a reboot instead of a remake, like Crystal Dynamics did with Tomb Raider and The Initiative+Crystal are doing with Perfect Dark. You still may piss off some people, but far less people than you would if you are calling the game a remake. The name remake comes with the expectation that it will be the same as the original game but with better graphics and updated gameplay mechanics + quality of life improvements. 

You don't get to decide what a remake is about and what the boundaries are for the artists and programmers working on it. They are free to make those artistic changes to the game whether you like it or not. There are no rules when it comes to making a game, only the ones people decide to arbitrarily set for themselves and expect everyone else to read their mind about. A remake is still a game at the end of the day and developers and artists are allowed to make the choices they want.



Chrkeller said:
DroidKnight said:

I'm guessing she didn't battle imaginary creatures in imaginary worlds either.

This is irrelevant.  Lara Craft climbing mountains in daisy duke shorts just doesn't fit the atmosphere.  Jill fighting Nemesis in a tube, top, skirt and **** me boots doesn't fit either.  It is about fitting the atmosphere.  Look at Returnal....  she is wearing a space suit, you know because she is in space.  Samus wears a space suit, again this makes sense.  

I am aware of, but haven't played the Tomb Raider games.  I would counter that the environment on the mountain should be the determining factor.  Like, if she is on Mount Everest, than yeah, she should be dressed appropriately.  But, if the climate on the mountain is warm, who is to say that light attire doesn't fit "the atmosphere"?



Mandalore76 said:
tsogud said:

Speaking as a nonbinary bisexual I don't prefer voluptuous well-figured characters or beef-cakes with huge buldges. This isn't porn, it's interactive art. I, like many people, prefer realism in characters in games that go for that art style. That doesn't mean these types of characters don't have a place in games. Games that go for campy or satirical style are an exception, like Catherine or Bayonetta (tho I do think Bayo does a pretty good job with portraying powerful women) but the examples pointed out are from games that originally chased the realism art style and tone as evident by the characters.

Also you can't speak for other people or demographics. You spoke for yourself so the convo will be centered on that. You admitted in your post that it might be sexist and I just confirmed it was. That's all. You think women with flat butts and chests and asymmetrical faces are ugly and you value big jiggly breasts and only want to look at that. Your post literally admitted to objectifying women, albeit virtual women. That's sexist. Sorry, but it is.

Wait, so your position is that large breasted women don't occur in nature?  You realize that kind of statement and sentiment is just as harmful to the mental psyche of the women growing up with larger than average breastsizes as the opposite sentiment was to the smaller breasted women who grew up in the 80's and 90's?  The same way that the latter group felt pressured to get breast enlargements because of perceived "societal preferences", the former group now feel pressured by society to get breast reductions.  Neither is mentally healthy.  It's one thing to complain about an entire game being populated by overly-endowed female physiques, but to target one character here and there and say "this is not realistic" is a bridge too far.  I mean, think of how ridiculous it is to look at this picture from the original Final Fantasy VII and say that Tifa Lockhart isn't a realistic character because her boobs are bigger than Aerith's and Yuffie's, or Jessie, or Elena for that matter.  

You started off by saying what you personally prefer, which is fine.  To each their own as the saying goes.  But you then went on to declare that what you don't prefer has no place in "realistic games".  Sorry, but preference and realism are two very different things.  The human form comes in all shapes and sizes.  It's ironic to choose one of them and call it "unrealistic" while declaring that it only has a place in cartoons and campy artstyles.  All you are really doing is replacing one bias for another.

Yep, I always find it funny when people say that the Tomb Raider figure doesn't exist in the real world, when there are plenty of examples of that body type in the real world. The detractors of sexy female game characters are also almost always the same people who claim that the industry is changing because the gaming demographic is changing, that the design of characters are changing to better represent the changing demographics of gamers. Yet if that was truly the reason behind the shift in character design, it would mean that there are no sexy, curvy women playing video games, because the recent trend in playable female character design in games is to make them look more plain, and less sexy. And yet we know it's not true that no sexy women play games, all you have to do is look at Twitch to find many thousands of sexy female gamers. Don't they deserve representation too? I've seen quite a few tweets from attractive female gamers in recent years complaining about the lack of sexy playable female characters in games these days. 



Raven said:
shikamaru317 said:

This thread is about remakes. When you are remaking a game, you shouldn't be making artistic choices that are hugely different from the original game, unless they are optional changes such as new outfits and hairstyles, alongside the original look of the character as an option. The whole point of a remake is that it is the same as the old game but updated to modern graphics quality and modern gameplay mechanics/quality of life improvements. If you want to go make sweeping changes to art design, make it a reboot instead of a remake, like Crystal Dynamics did with Tomb Raider and The Initiative+Crystal are doing with Perfect Dark. You still may piss off some people, but far less people than you would if you are calling the game a remake. The name remake comes with the expectation that it will be the same as the original game but with better graphics and updated gameplay mechanics + quality of life improvements. 

You don't get to decide what a remake is about and what the boundaries are for the artists and programmers working on it. They are free to make those artistic changes to the game whether you like it or not. There are no rules when it comes to making a game, only the ones people decide to arbitrarily set for themselves and expect everyone else to read their mind about. A remake is still a game at the end of the day and developers and artists are allowed to make the choices they want.

This is what remakes almost always were until the last half decade or so. They are the ones who decided they could arbitrarily change the rules and started making artistic changes in addition to graphical and gameplay changes. They can't expect a gaming populace, many of whom have been gamers for decades and know what remakes used to be, to accept a changing definition of a what a game remake is. Especially when they know that traditional gamers are incredibly resistant to change to begin with.