Eagle367 said:
JuliusHackebeil said:
There seems to be a funny misunderstanding.
You think I don't get Islam. But it actually is the quite reputable pew research center that just does not get it. It is their numbers I provided, not my personal ideas about Islam. I wish pew research center would finaly listen to you about how sharia is just a personal moral code and not a legal framework. Because if they did, they could also tell the tens of thousands of muslims they polled for their survey. They could tell them that Eagle367 has the one truth for Islam hidden away here at vgchartz. They could tell all those people from Afghanistan, Iraq, Malysia, Djibouti, Palestinia, etc. that more than 80 % of the muslims who live there should read your comment and finaly get that they should not want sharia as the law of the land, because it is just a personal moral code.
But until they do I suppose we have to grapple with the reality of the situation. And that situation is that hundreds of millions of muslims around the world want Islam to be the basis and deciding factor of their legal system (I even did not write the word "sharia" this time, I hope that helps). I think it is a weak argument to just say that people like that (the big majority of the countries I listed) have it wrong. They are in fact a big part of the global muslim community. And they should be treated that way. Their beliefs should be taken into account when talking about Islam. So I take them into account. But you don't seem to. You seem to close your eyes to the fact that hundreds of millions of muslims around the world want Islam to be the basis and deciding factor of their legal system. But this is what is going on. What do you do with this very simple fact? Write another comment that is just deflection? Because I really wonder who is not reading whos comments here. 88 % of Malyan muslims say they want religious judges to decide family and property disputes.
81 % of Afghani muslims say they favor corporal punishment for crimes such as theft
89 % of Pakistani muslims want stoning as a punishment for adultery
86 % of Egyptian muslims want the death penalty for apostasy. This time I even bothered to provide a link: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/#_ftnref6 This is not a problem of some harmful interpretations (as you wrote in your comment that I have read). This is mainline thinking in many different Islam-dominated countries around the world. And sure, these countries are poor and have bad infrastructure, bad education, high crime rate, etc. This seems to also be one of your points: "The bad things happening in a country stem from it's poor state, not from there being Islam." -But how is it that so many Christianity-dominated South-American countries do not live in the stone age where they favor corporal punishment for theft, want stoning for adultery, want religious judges to decide family and property disputes, and want the death penalty for leaving Christianity? These are dirt poor countries with high crime and many problems of their own. But there seems to be a unique set of problems just stemming from Islam as well, no? |
Ok now we have entered bad faith territory and I can't proceed further with this. Also some reactionary bs as well. Why were Christians of the 11the century so regressive meanwhile the most progressive people of the time lived in the middle east? And you think south America hasn't had its share of bad positions and politics? And you do know pew just does polls right? It doesn't ask for definitions and clarifications. It just asks a question from people and the people answer. Pew fir example asks "are you liberal or conservative", it doesn't define what those terms are. So the answers are based on personal bias. So to that effect, people just respond in what they perceive about the terms themselves. The only questions asked are "how closely does your country follow sharia" and "is it good or bad that your laws don't follow sharia". Nowhere is the word sharia defined. So everyone answering that question will respond with their own bias and knowledge of what the word means. Pew is not a good place to look for definitions of things, they leave that up to the people they poll. Of you can't even understand that, I have no clue how to talk to you. It is clear you have your own issues to work out regarding islam and this discussion us not going anywhere. You aren't even interested in a discussion or a more informed perspective from a Muslim, you are only interested in your own interpretation and you don't seem to want to move away from this interpretation of things. Have fun blaming Islam I guess. Eh |
I bet you think it is terribly frustrating to talk to me. And if so I can assure you the feeling is mutual. But dialogue, especially across such differences as ours, is important to me. If you do not want to engage further, I get it and best of luck with your views. But I cannot let it go just yet.
Let's switch to Christianity for a second. Say christian A has beliefe A. And christian B has beliefe B. Both want government based on their faith. Now you would be right to ask what their beliefs are. This is important. But firstly I think we need to acknowledge that both christian A and christian B are backward savages for wanting their faith anywhere near the government in the first place. I would call my own father a backward savage if he ever wanted a government based on his current interpretation of christianity. Even if he certainly does not want corporal punishment, stoning for adultery, death for apostasy, polygamy and women as second class citizens. Still I would call him that. Because religion has no place anywhere near the government.
Now there are hundreds of millions of muslims who want their faith to be the law (however many interpretations this would entail). Would you not agree that this is a problem? Even if Islam was known as an absolutely unproblematic religion (which is an impossibility since every faith will always have enough problems) would it not still be a big problem wanting it as the law of the land?
Also: when is a problem the problem of a religion? I have a very wide definition and would for example include child molestation with Christianity. Now I strongly suspect that nowhere in the christian doctrine would it ever say: Thou shall molest children. Being a child molester is not what a christian is. And still I would say that it is a problem of Christianity that so many priests do molest children.
In accordance with that I would say that not being able to be openly gay is a problem of Islam. Now let's say that homosexuality just has nothing to do with Islam and the Qur'an at all. It just is not an issue one way or the other for the text itself. But practice and effect are still important. Even if the Qur'an would not mention anything about homosexuality I would say since homosexuals have it so very hard in Islam dominated countries, it is a problem of Islam.
Let's say the Qur'an does not mention anything about the relations of men and women. But when in countries dominated by Islam women have a worse legal standing, get less inheritance, must veil their bodies without their consent, must have a male guardian if they want to leave the house, are blamed if they get raped, must merry their cousins or uncles, etc. than I would say this is still a problem of Islam.
Let's say the Qur'an does not mention anything about apostasy. According to the text itself it would just be a non-issue. It is just incidental that so many people (hundreds of millions) in countries dominated by Islam want the death penalty for apostasy. Would it not still be a problem of Islam as is child molestation for Christianity?
By the way: I do not go to pew research for definitions. I go there to see what people think. And apparently hundres of millions of muslims think that their (very individual) faith should be the government.
And you actually did not provide the link I asked you for - where it says that muslims in the USA are more progressive than christians. I am curious to see if the situation is different from Europe. Where ca. 10 % of muslims in Spain and Britain, and 16 % in France think that violence against civilian targets to defend Islam is justified often or sometimes. With an additional 15 % (or so) thinking it is rarely justified.
-If Islam has no bearing on people and it is just economics and education and all that jazz, how come every 10th muslim in Britain and every 7th muslim in France has such horrible views?
And what parts of Islam do you think are bad? Can you not talk about that at all? I asked that already and you ignored the question. The death for apostasy thing is not that great, is it? That slavery is endorsed in the Qur'an (as it is in the bible, just saying) is a problem, is it not? That women are second class citizens according to the things directly coming from the Qur'an is surely something any sensible person could do without?
And I did not get your point about Islam not being built to be the government due to it being decentralised. What should that even mean? That there is no pope? Perhaps you can clear this up. Because in my understanding Muhammed wrote the text during an ever more sucessfull and ever more bloody conquest. And I think the Qur'an reflects that getting ever more brutal and it's teachings more ruthless by the page. If it is not built to be the government, why are there so many laws in it? And is it just a coincidence than that so many people in Islam want faith based government? And so few people in Christianity, Buddhism, Thaoism, Shinto, Hinduism, etc. want that as well? Is islam not a bajillion times better suited for faith based government than something like Shinto?
