By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - I think we should respect all religions (people might not know their friend is devoted to muslim or Chrisitanity etc)

CaptainExplosion said:
Eagle367 said:

I'm pretty sure most mainstream platforms don't allow Islamophobia, bigotry based on religion and anti-semitism. Muslims and jews are given their own sectors because they get so much of the hate and bigotry compared to other religions.

I never understood where anti-Semitism came from before the Nazis. To me Islamophobia's source makes sense, since some of history's greatest scumbags happened to be Muslim.

Islamophobia doesn't make sense. Some of the worst people happened to be catholics and protestant and Shinto and hindu and Buddhist but they never got the hate. It doesn't make sense. The easier definition which explains both Islamophobia and anti Semitism is that the people following those beliefs got in the way of super powers and the global hegemons. Islamophobia increased dramatically when the US and UK started meddling in the affairs of the Middle east and that created a lot of tensions. Those tensions and mass migrations due to instability created the Islamophobia,  not the actions of scumbags like Bin Ladin. 

Similarly jews have always lived closely to the dominant order in Europe, Christianity and also somewhat closely to the dominant order in the middle east, Islam. They were not the dominant group and it was thus easier to ostracize and hate them. Since the Christian nations became the hegemon, the antisemitism became a big issue globally. 

Fear of the other, someone different from you and a feeling of your group being superior than the other groups you interact with create this dynamic. And the marginalized people get the short end of the stick.  That is why if you look at it locally, Hindus get a lot of bigotry thrown at them in Pakistan, Sikhs and Muslims get the same in India, Uighurs in China, the Chinese and Malaysians in Japan, etc.

Antisemitism and Islamophobia are more pronounced because jews and muslims crossed paths with the global hegemon of the modern world, Christian catholic Europe and protestant US.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Around the Network
JuliusHackebeil said:

Respecting others faiths is surely nice and all. But I don't think it should be a requirement. Everybody should be able to talk about everything. Government, religious institutions, sexuality, gender, nations, races, etc.
When you are an idiot you are typically secluded from more sensible people anyways.

But there are also sides to different religions that need to be banned. Nobody should accept as faith what sensible people would consider a crime. When a catholic priest does soemthing to a child, he should be put in prison. When a muslim forces his daughter to marry her cousin, he should be put in prison.

If all religions should be absolutely respected, the french cartoon artists had it coming. No amount of mockery justifies violent retaliation.

And there is a not so fine line between justified critique and, say, islamophobia. People are all to quick to shout the latter. I think most religions are quite bad, but islam has so many horrible sides to it. And yet critique is just shouted down, surpressed and censored. Some cultures and religions are backwards and their ways savage. We should be able to point all of that out.

What is so singularly different about Islam. Do enlighten us. This sort of "Islam is savage and barbaric and backwards" used to be much more common. It still exists but when you ask the people that say these things, i never seem to get an answer that is true. So please do tell. 



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Treat people like people. A lot of bigotry is born from looking at others as savages, brutes, less than, barbaric, backwards, etc. And not understanding any of the material conditions about why people in those regions have the problems and attitudes that they have. During the golden age of Islam, the middle east was leagues ahead of Europe in civil rights, social rights and economic rights. The people there were way more accepting of different viewpoints and were way more tolerant. Now as can be seen in this thread, they are looked down on and essentialized into being savages. No real analysis of why the things are the way they are.

Muslims in the US and Canada are more socially progressive and accepting than Christians on average. If the problem is Islam, why is that the case? The answer is simple. It's the material conditions of the people. Stability creates progressivism and instability creates repressive ideas and backwards ideals. Look at any place and people in the world and you can see that. Religions are so open ended you can make them out to be a lot of things. You can be KKK or daesh but you can also be completely good. The actual problems are the repressive ideas. Religions are way more malleable than people give them credit for. There is no one Islam, Christianity, Hinduism. Buddhism, etc.

Look at what Myanmar is doing in the name of Buddhism. Some of the worst shit ever. Respect people and treat them like humans. Don't try to control others. Let people be as long as they are not harming anyone.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

I think the exact opposite.



CaptainExplosion said:
JackHandy said:

As long as they're keeping to themselves, we should respect both religious and non-religious people equally. Not enough respect out there right now. We need more of it.

If George Carlin were here today he'd unload into it more than ever.

Did you watch Carlin's last specials? If he were alive today, he'd probably die again of a stroke within five minutes lol. 



Around the Network
Eagle367 said:
JuliusHackebeil said:

Respecting others faiths is surely nice and all. But I don't think it should be a requirement. Everybody should be able to talk about everything. Government, religious institutions, sexuality, gender, nations, races, etc.
When you are an idiot you are typically secluded from more sensible people anyways.

But there are also sides to different religions that need to be banned. Nobody should accept as faith what sensible people would consider a crime. When a catholic priest does soemthing to a child, he should be put in prison. When a muslim forces his daughter to marry her cousin, he should be put in prison.

If all religions should be absolutely respected, the french cartoon artists had it coming. No amount of mockery justifies violent retaliation.

And there is a not so fine line between justified critique and, say, islamophobia. People are all to quick to shout the latter. I think most religions are quite bad, but islam has so many horrible sides to it. And yet critique is just shouted down, surpressed and censored. Some cultures and religions are backwards and their ways savage. We should be able to point all of that out.

What is so singularly different about Islam. Do enlighten us. This sort of "Islam is savage and barbaric and backwards" used to be much more common. It still exists but when you ask the people that say these things, i never seem to get an answer that is true. So please do tell. 

A few things up front:
Outlining how bad Islam is could still be seen as part of the topic of this thread, since it shows how not every religion should be respected just because.
Outlining how bad Islam is, is not me badmouthing all muslims. Surely some muslims. But my concern is about ideas, convictions and their consequences, not people. (And just to be super safe - I know that there are hundreds of millions of muslims who are super nice people. And I don't have a problem with them.)
Outlining how bad Islam is does not mean I do not sea the bad sides of other religions aswell. The catholic church (just as an example) has a very sorry history of opression, torture, bigotry, homophobia, war, child molestation, etc. 

And this is already my first point: For the catholic church most of these horrendous offences are firmly in the past. For Islam the problematic and downright rotten things happen in the present.

My second point: The catholic church is still backwards in many ways. But that does not matter too much to western societies, since there is a clear break between the church and the government. This is one of the most fundamental ideas of the western world. The emancipation from and separation of the curch from the government. This does not and did not happen in islamic dominated countries because Islam, in many ways, is built to be the government. I read the Qur'an. And in favour of the bibles allegorical stories to give vague moral guidance, much of the Qur'an is just laws. There are multiple detailed sections just about inheritance law for example.
When a country is governed by a text and its laws are directly taken from that text that is hundreds of years old and officially (even though it happened in the past) cannot be edited, that country and its culture almost by definition is backwards.
But who is really in favour of making sharia the law of the land? -A lot of people. % of muslims in favour of islamic law as the official law in their country: Niger 86%, Djibouti 82 %, Congo 74 %, Nigeria 71 %, Uganda 66 %, Irag 91 %, Pakistan 84 %, Afghanistan 99 %, Malaysia 86 %, etc. -This is already hundres of millions of people and the list goes on and on. This is a big problem. Your country cannot be modern, or free, or democratic, or fair, if it is ruled by the church. Data: pew research.

My third point: You cannot be openly gay in many of the islamic dominated countries and expect to have a good or long life. Again from pew: "Publics in Africa and in predominantly Muslim countries remain among the least accepting of homosexuality. In sub-Saharan Africa, at least nine-in-ten in Nigeria (98%), Senegal (96%), Ghana (96%), Uganda (96%) and Kenya (90%) believe homosexuality should not be accepted by society." And: "Overwhelming majorities in the predominantly Muslim countries surveyed also say homosexuality should be rejected, including 97% in Jordan, 95% in Egypt, 94% in Tunisia, 93% in the Palestinian territories, 93% in Indonesia, 87% in Pakistan, 86% in Malaysia, 80% in Lebanon and 78% in Turkey."

My fourth point: Misogyny. In many of the detailed laws found in the Qur'an women just get the short end of the deal. I would refer to inheritence laws again, just as an example of many. For the bigger picture there is again some pew reserach data: % of muslims who completely or mostly agree that a wife should always obey her husband: Tajikistan 89 %, Uzbekistan 84 %, Kyrgyzstan 75 %, Malaysia 96 %, Indonesia 93 %, Afghanistan 94 %, etc. Again hundreds of millions of people. The list goes on and on. Completely unacceptable.

My fith point: Criticism and mockery. There is no single religion in the world, there is no single organisation in the world powerful and savage enough that you have to fear for your life if you draw a picture that they do not like. Not a single one, except for Islam. Again from pew: Violence against civilian targets can be justified in order to defend Islam: French muslims 16 % often or sometimes, 19 % rarely; Spanish and British muslims 15 % often or sometimes, 9 % rarely; Nigerian Muslims 46 % often or sometimes, 23 % rarely. Again the list goes on. Hundreds of millions of muslims believe that violence against civilian targets can be justified in order to defend Islam. When so many people are okay to kill innocent people something is majorly wrong with the belief and value system of these people.

My sixth point: Apostasy. Pew: "19 Certain hadith either state or imply that the penalty for apostasy, or converting to another faith, is death. See Sahih al-Bukhari 52:260 and 83:37." And: "Nevertheless, in six of the 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of those who favor making Islamic law the official law also support executing apostates." And: "In the South Asian countries of Afghanistan and Pakistan, strong majorities of those who favor making Islamic law the official law of the land also approve of executing apostates (79% and 76%, respectively). However, in Bangladesh far fewer (44%) share this view. A majority of Malaysian Muslims (62%) who want to see sharia as their country’s official law also support taking the lives of those who convert to other faiths. But fewer take this position in neighboring Thailand (27%) and Indonesia (18%)."

Honestly, I could make many more and more detailed points. But I think the picture is quite clear already. Islam is way worse than a lot of people would like to believe. And it can be an absolut nightmare for women, gays, trans people, free thinkers and critics.



Used to work for PVE up and down the UK. The simple take here for a lot of which happens across religions is when we do assign something due to religion / race and when we don't. There is an inconsistency.

Black shooter - gang banger
Muslim shooter - Islamist
White shooter - mental health

Take another example: if a Catholic priest grooms kids, is it because he is a Catholic or because he is gay? Or is it because he is a pervert and should be treated as a criminal who happens to be Catholic?

Another example was when I was invited to a Home Office meeting. Someone made a statement that said there is a grooming issue with the Muslim Pakistani Kashmiri community in the north.

So I asked, is it happening because they are Muslim, Pakistani, Kashmiri or in the north or all the above?

At the same time, why was the fact they were part of a drug group being ignored? If you don't look at the source of the issue then you will never be able to get to the bottom of it and there will be never be justice for the victims.

Another example is the likes of ISIS and AlQaeeda. In the Muslim world they are known as Khawarjites. They are not considered Muslim as they are seen to be people who use religion to use violence for political and personal gains. They break serious rules and regulations within the religion. However, the only people who agree they are Muslim and empower them are the group's themselves, their supporters and far right extremists as well as the media and governments who do it for clicks, votes and contracts.

Every religion has made a great contribution to the world as we know it. Everything from hospitals, laws, core science and medicine to food, architecture and entertainment including video games.

We can either focus on the negative and sit here and argue all day or we can get along. You either want cohesion or you don't.

People arguing about forced marriage in Islam let's say, has nothing to do with the religion at all. That is cultural but people are so miseducated to cannot tell the difference or have been brainwashed to believing it is a religious issue.



Ka-pi96 said:

Strongly disagree. Respect is earnt, not given freely.

This is it, in a nutshell. People should be able to question and criticize any religion or belief. Preferably in a polite manner, of course, rather than trying to be rude or incite something.

However, the topic is so personal and goes so deep into the feels, that structured and intellectually honest conversation here is nigh impossible.

Ancient wisdom told us not to speak about sex, religion and politics. Looking at how everything is full of those things now, I'm tempted to say that the ancients were right.



It is tricky because not only should you not respect religions, it is your DUTY to criticize them when they are nonsensical, immoral or otherwise problematic. However, at the same time it is also your DUTY to reject bigotry and harassment against religious people.


Unfortunately, people who are not so smart are also not able to distinguish the two things: criticism of religion and bigotry against religious people. That is how you get people who get personally offended by completely legitimate criticisms of a religion, and it is also how you get people who blatantly harass religious people, claiming they are simply criticizing a religion.


And frankly even for smart people those things can sometimes be difficult to distinguish, especially in the age of social media where the short, unnuanced and confrontational messages get promoted by the algorithms and where the intentions of the sender is more difficult to see.

Therefore it is very important to be super clear with ones message, when it comes to these kinds of topics.



JuliusHackebeil said:
Eagle367 said:

What is so singularly different about Islam. Do enlighten us. This sort of "Islam is savage and barbaric and backwards" used to be much more common. It still exists but when you ask the people that say these things, i never seem to get an answer that is true. So please do tell. 

A few things up front:
Outlining how bad Islam is could still be seen as part of the topic of this thread, since it shows how not every religion should be respected just because.
Outlining how bad Islam is, is not me badmouthing all muslims. Surely some muslims. But my concern is about ideas, convictions and their consequences, not people. (And just to be super safe - I know that there are hundreds of millions of muslims who are super nice people. And I don't have a problem with them.)
Outlining how bad Islam is does not mean I do not sea the bad sides of other religions aswell. The catholic church (just as an example) has a very sorry history of opression, torture, bigotry, homophobia, war, child molestation, etc. 

And this is already my first point: For the catholic church most of these horrendous offences are firmly in the past. For Islam the problematic and downright rotten things happen in the present.

My second point: The catholic church is still backwards in many ways. But that does not matter too much to western societies, since there is a clear break between the church and the government. This is one of the most fundamental ideas of the western world. The emancipation from and separation of the curch from the government. This does not and did not happen in islamic dominated countries because Islam, in many ways, is built to be the government. I read the Qur'an. And in favour of the bibles allegorical stories to give vague moral guidance, much of the Qur'an is just laws. There are multiple detailed sections just about inheritance law for example.
When a country is governed by a text and its laws are directly taken from that text that is hundreds of years old and officially (even though it happened in the past) cannot be edited, that country and its culture almost by definition is backwards.
But who is really in favour of making sharia the law of the land? -A lot of people. % of muslims in favour of islamic law as the official law in their country: Niger 86%, Djibouti 82 %, Congo 74 %, Nigeria 71 %, Uganda 66 %, Irag 91 %, Pakistan 84 %, Afghanistan 99 %, Malaysia 86 %, etc. -This is already hundres of millions of people and the list goes on and on. This is a big problem. Your country cannot be modern, or free, or democratic, or fair, if it is ruled by the church. Data: pew research.

My third point: You cannot be openly gay in many of the islamic dominated countries and expect to have a good or long life. Again from pew: "Publics in Africa and in predominantly Muslim countries remain among the least accepting of homosexuality. In sub-Saharan Africa, at least nine-in-ten in Nigeria (98%), Senegal (96%), Ghana (96%), Uganda (96%) and Kenya (90%) believe homosexuality should not be accepted by society." And: "Overwhelming majorities in the predominantly Muslim countries surveyed also say homosexuality should be rejected, including 97% in Jordan, 95% in Egypt, 94% in Tunisia, 93% in the Palestinian territories, 93% in Indonesia, 87% in Pakistan, 86% in Malaysia, 80% in Lebanon and 78% in Turkey."

My fourth point: Misogyny. In many of the detailed laws found in the Qur'an women just get the short end of the deal. I would refer to inheritence laws again, just as an example of many. For the bigger picture there is again some pew reserach data: % of muslims who completely or mostly agree that a wife should always obey her husband: Tajikistan 89 %, Uzbekistan 84 %, Kyrgyzstan 75 %, Malaysia 96 %, Indonesia 93 %, Afghanistan 94 %, etc. Again hundreds of millions of people. The list goes on and on. Completely unacceptable.

My fith point: Criticism and mockery. There is no single religion in the world, there is no single organisation in the world powerful and savage enough that you have to fear for your life if you draw a picture that they do not like. Not a single one, except for Islam. Again from pew: Violence against civilian targets can be justified in order to defend Islam: French muslims 16 % often or sometimes, 19 % rarely; Spanish and British muslims 15 % often or sometimes, 9 % rarely; Nigerian Muslims 46 % often or sometimes, 23 % rarely. Again the list goes on. Hundreds of millions of muslims believe that violence against civilian targets can be justified in order to defend Islam. When so many people are okay to kill innocent people something is majorly wrong with the belief and value system of these people.

My sixth point: Apostasy. Pew: "19 Certain hadith either state or imply that the penalty for apostasy, or converting to another faith, is death. See Sahih al-Bukhari 52:260 and 83:37." And: "Nevertheless, in six of the 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of those who favor making Islamic law the official law also support executing apostates." And: "In the South Asian countries of Afghanistan and Pakistan, strong majorities of those who favor making Islamic law the official law of the land also approve of executing apostates (79% and 76%, respectively). However, in Bangladesh far fewer (44%) share this view. A majority of Malaysian Muslims (62%) who want to see sharia as their country’s official law also support taking the lives of those who convert to other faiths. But fewer take this position in neighboring Thailand (27%) and Indonesia (18%)."

Honestly, I could make many more and more detailed points. But I think the picture is quite clear already. Islam is way worse than a lot of people would like to believe. And it can be an absolut nightmare for women, gays, trans people, free thinkers and critics.

So let's go through these points. If you think islam is built to be the government,  you don't understand Islam. Ask any real scholar about Islam and they will tell you it's decentralized and doesn't mesh well with the modern state at all. Regarding sharia law, you do not seem to understand it. Then again many Muslims don't either. Sharia is supposed to be your own personal code as a Muslim, not a legal thing for society. Sharia is not one thing. It's many things to many people. The legal framework of Islam I'd called fiqh and people study it endlessly and there are variations of how they interpret law. These sorts of differences are why different sects exist. Asking Muslims about Sharia is a useless question. It's just one of these stupid things people chose to focus on much like jihad, which means to struggle and entails anything from struggling against your own personal demons to struggling against oppression. It is not holy war.

Your point about blaming Islam is a little bit confusing seeing as there are oppression and backwardness and all of that in underdeveloped and developing societies.  These societies have backwards views regardless of which religion they follow. Hell the evangelicals have such a sway in US politics and are not exactly separate from the governments in ways people pretend they are and the hindutva are bringing an extremist view of Hinduism to their government and in Myanmar, an extremist view of their religion is also being used to commit genocide against the rohingya. Point is religions are malleable and that might be a critique you can levy. Other factors determine how reactionary people are going to be. For example, Muslims in the US have more progressive values than Christians on average in the US and that is true for Canadians as well. Stability and development create progressive values. Instability and war and such stuff create reactionary ideology. Wahabism wasn't born from the golden age of Islam(because Muslims were way more progress back then) but was born when the colonial powers ravaged across the middle east. It's a new more reactionary interpretation of Islam that did not exist classically. 

Most of your other points also relate to this factor of the less developed countries having backwards values. It is the fault of a lot of societal factors but also the views of the Muslims there. And violence for mockery is wrong but the stats you show also show that a super majority of Muslims in more developed nations are against it. There have been polls that show Christians in the US are far more supportive of violence than the numbers you showed for Muslims in France and other places. With regards to women, Islam teaches about there being no superiority of men. Of course misogynists will ignore those parts.

The apostasy thing is again about interpretations. Christians used to kill people for not being part of their religion,  not just apostasy. But again, these views diminish through progress.  You showed how Afghanistan and Pakistan have such reactionary views. Have you seen the state of those countries? Afghanistan has gone through war after war since the 70s and pakistan has a huge economic problems and has been facing terrorism for decades.

As I have said before, there is nothing uniquely wrong about Islam. The problem of Islam and other religions is that they are too malleable. People can twist them to mean what they want. The things you pointed out are also not unique to Islam. None of them are. And your assertion that it's just Islam in the modern age is also not true. Most Muslims live in underdeveloped and developing countries and that leads to reactionary thinking. You can see it happen to Hinduism in India, Buddhism in Myanmar, Christianity in many African nations, east European nations and the US. What can be the key point to focus on should be the reactionary elements themselves. Islam is followed by billions and has a lot of interpretations but some are just wrong and anti human. The focus should be on those reactionary elements like wahabism, evangelicism, hindutva, etc. I have said this before but it bears repeating,  the problems you described are not unique to Islam, they are a product of instability and underdevelopment. 



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also