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Forums - Politics Discussion - Shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas (19 Students, 2 Teachers Dead)

Machiavellian said:
ConservagameR said:

Everyone acts different when the camera is on. Many can't take the heat, and it's hard to blame them.

No win. That's very well put. I tend to agree.

If you're a cop, or any profession, and you think you're likely screwed either way now, the way to proceed is whichever harms yourself and your family and community the least. Which is extremely sad, especially when it comes to events like this, but that's what's happening to the US.

When people have to choose between themselves and others, when it comes down to it, most will pick themselves.

If you cannot handle the job then you are unqualified to do it period.  I have to say that is the biggest weakness to this defense you have of some people cannot handle being on camera.  Its the job now and so if you cannot handle it, you should not be doing it.

The thing is, the trust of the police is gone because the police did not properly handle the bad apples within their ranks.  Instead of dealing with them as they should, they attempted to protect them at all cost.  Once you lose trust, it takes a long time to gain it back.  Every professional trade has gone through this from doctors, nurses, lawyers you name it.  When trust is gone there needs to be measures to bring it back.  So yes, every cop needs to have a camera running at all times for any incident between them and a suspect.  We have seen on countless occasions of police abusing their power as well as corruptions within their ranks.  Its not an easy job and everyone isn't cut out to be a police officer nor should they be.

There's a lot of jobs filled by, to some degree, unqualified people, due to the shortage of qualified people. The reasons for a lack of qualified people are many, but it doesn't change the fact that it's either have enough cops, or have a worrisome lack of them. If the camera causes what would then seem to be unqualified cops to do their job poorly, what do you suggest? Defund the police instead?

If every company just fired their unqualified people, the US would have very different business and work culture, not to mention an economic meltdown due to lack of employee's period.

Cops having camera's is almost certainly the answer to the camera problem, since it seems the camera's aren't going away. The next step is for the media and the people to wait for the full story before jumping to conclusions. Plenty of times now after the uproar, have the police finally released their footage, proving the officer was in the right. As for when the footage proves the officer wrong, then all the more evidence to discipline them.



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Kakadu18 said:
Chrkeller said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/06/01/tulsa-oklahoma-shooting-medical-building-victims-suspect/7476634001/

We need to arm doctors and nurses.

They all always make this copy-pasted statement: "Our thoughts and prayers go out to the victins" blablabla.

And then there's another shooting the next day and more "thoughts and prayers" are being so helpful.

and these words "senseless act of violence"



 

 

sundin13 said:
ConservagameR said:

1. This is why you have so many bad cops, or better put, less useful cops. If that's the US attitude for mistakes, I'll pick another career then.

2. When it comes to school shootings. If the shooter is a boy or a teen, is it ok for a cop to just blow him away?

3. False, yes, but that's rarely how people seem to see it. Trust the professionals, or else, except when, and, or, etc?

4. There aren't any good doctors with bad takes? They are all always perfect?

5. That's not how things work. We have to let the professionals do their job, so we're told. That's why they're the professionals and we're not. The parents going in shouldn't even be a thought in their heads, and yes the cops should have been able to do their job more effectively, but they shouldn't have to worry about cancel culture on top of it, which they certainly do. It goes beyond policing itself.

6. I agree, but I believe the cops would say stop focusing so much on us and cancelling us, which we all know isn't going to happen. So both sides in this point don't get what they want either, because neither side will budge. So this is what we end up with.

Everything has it's repercussions.

You know, I thought you would give me some push back when I said that your argument was "Cops can't even murder children these days without pushback", but no, you've doubled down. I don't know what to do with that. Like, it is so obviously ridiculous on its face that it seems farcical to argue it further. 

Well you said it depended on the circumstances, so I naturally was inquisitive of what more definitively that meant, considering we are talking about a school shooting. You seemed to be on board with doing what was necessary to save the innocent lives of those kids, and it looks as though the way to do that was to take out the shooter, but you weren't very clear at all about whether that was acceptable or not, no matter the shooters age. Asking for clarities sake doesn't seem odd to me as I don't see why it would necessarily be an argument.



ConservagameR said:
Machiavellian said:

If you cannot handle the job then you are unqualified to do it period.  I have to say that is the biggest weakness to this defense you have of some people cannot handle being on camera.  Its the job now and so if you cannot handle it, you should not be doing it.

The thing is, the trust of the police is gone because the police did not properly handle the bad apples within their ranks.  Instead of dealing with them as they should, they attempted to protect them at all cost.  Once you lose trust, it takes a long time to gain it back.  Every professional trade has gone through this from doctors, nurses, lawyers you name it.  When trust is gone there needs to be measures to bring it back.  So yes, every cop needs to have a camera running at all times for any incident between them and a suspect.  We have seen on countless occasions of police abusing their power as well as corruptions within their ranks.  Its not an easy job and everyone isn't cut out to be a police officer nor should they be.

There's a lot of jobs filled by, to some degree, unqualified people, due to the shortage of qualified people. The reasons for a lack of qualified people are many, but it doesn't change the fact that it's either have enough cops, or have a worrisome lack of them. If the camera causes what would then seem to be unqualified cops to do their job poorly, what do you suggest? Defund the police instead?

If every company just fired their unqualified people, the US would have very different business and work culture, not to mention an economic meltdown due to lack of employee's period.

Cops having camera's is almost certainly the answer to the camera problem, since it seems the camera's aren't going away. The next step is for the media and the people to wait for the full story before jumping to conclusions. Plenty of times now after the uproar, have the police finally released their footage, proving the officer was in the right. As for when the footage proves the officer wrong, then all the more evidence to discipline them.

There is a big difference between an unqualified Subway manager and an unqualified cop. We need to hold cops to a high standard or else you get...well, you get American cops. However, I agree that this high standard can create a shortage of applicants, so I support an increase in wages for many important public service jobs to compensate which includes the police. However, this needs to come with certain increased accountability and I have seen no sign that police as a whole are going to accept any increased accountability. 



Pemalite said:
ConservagameR said:

If you're a cop, or any profession, and you think you're likely screwed either way now, the way to proceed is whichever harms yourself and your family and community the least. Which is extremely sad, especially when it comes to events like this, but that's what's happening to the US.

When people have to choose between themselves and others, when it comes down to it, most will pick themselves.

You are actually trained to put yourself first... The priorities are yourself, then your crewmates, then the public, then property and the environment.

You put yourself first, because if you go down, who is going to help your crew-mates and the public if they require help?

Well this is the problem when it comes to sectors and circumstances vs the publics knowledge. The public is blind or mislead in so many ways, yet so many think what they decide based on what they know, or think they know, or feel, should be the answer.

If the cops go down, then there's just more victims, and it goes beyond the circumstance, because for the entire period of time the officer is out of commission, there are innocent people who are not being attended to by them. Weeks, months, etc. Not to mention, what if they're one of the good one's, some might say?

Now in this situation, it would seem that there were enough officers with enough training to be able to take care of the situation, but since we don't have all the details, and weren't there and don't know what exactly they were thinking, we can't be sure of whether they truly made the right call or not, whatever their reasoning.

An incident like a school shooting is tough enough to deal with already, not to mention everything else the officers may or may not be taking into account, outside of their job description and training. The whole situation is just a big mess. So sad for everyone attached in whatever way.



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sundin13 said:
ConservagameR said:

There's a lot of jobs filled by, to some degree, unqualified people, due to the shortage of qualified people. The reasons for a lack of qualified people are many, but it doesn't change the fact that it's either have enough cops, or have a worrisome lack of them. If the camera causes what would then seem to be unqualified cops to do their job poorly, what do you suggest? Defund the police instead?

If every company just fired their unqualified people, the US would have very different business and work culture, not to mention an economic meltdown due to lack of employee's period.

Cops having camera's is almost certainly the answer to the camera problem, since it seems the camera's aren't going away. The next step is for the media and the people to wait for the full story before jumping to conclusions. Plenty of times now after the uproar, have the police finally released their footage, proving the officer was in the right. As for when the footage proves the officer wrong, then all the more evidence to discipline them.

There is a big difference between an unqualified Subway manager and an unqualified cop. We need to hold cops to a high standard or else you get...well, you get American cops. However, I agree that this high standard can create a shortage of applicants, so I support an increase in wages for many important public service jobs to compensate which includes the police. However, this needs to come with certain increased accountability and I have seen no sign that police as a whole are going to accept any increased accountability. 

Issues with food can be quite detrimental if not deadly.

Cops should be held to a high standard, but what goes along with that, is people being held to a high standard. Now that's not so much the case when it comes to the individual(s) committing the crime, even though it's supposed to be, but for everyone else, I'm sure the cops are expecting a certain standard, and are not receiving that. If the cops see a decline in how they are viewed and treated by the general public, it's not logical to assume the cops won't be effected as well and begin to operate at a lower standard.

If the people buying your product aren't living up to a companies expected standard, you tend to see the company change over time, like how they deal with consumers and customers. Sometimes if enough consumers and customers are enough of a pain, they'll take their business elsewhere or stop making that product. Other times they'll try to stay the course, but will have considerable troubles with employee retention since they won't put up with the customers and consumers they have to deal with and quit. Which very well could explain why there may be more unqualified cops today and why the cops aren't living up to a certain standard perhaps.



ConservagameR said:
Machiavellian said:

If you cannot handle the job then you are unqualified to do it period.  I have to say that is the biggest weakness to this defense you have of some people cannot handle being on camera.  Its the job now and so if you cannot handle it, you should not be doing it.

The thing is, the trust of the police is gone because the police did not properly handle the bad apples within their ranks.  Instead of dealing with them as they should, they attempted to protect them at all cost.  Once you lose trust, it takes a long time to gain it back.  Every professional trade has gone through this from doctors, nurses, lawyers you name it.  When trust is gone there needs to be measures to bring it back.  So yes, every cop needs to have a camera running at all times for any incident between them and a suspect.  We have seen on countless occasions of police abusing their power as well as corruptions within their ranks.  Its not an easy job and everyone isn't cut out to be a police officer nor should they be.

There's a lot of jobs filled by, to some degree, unqualified people, due to the shortage of qualified people. The reasons for a lack of qualified people are many, but it doesn't change the fact that it's either have enough cops, or have a worrisome lack of them. If the camera causes what would then seem to be unqualified cops to do their job poorly, what do you suggest? Defund the police instead?

If every company just fired their unqualified people, the US would have very different business and work culture, not to mention an economic meltdown due to lack of employee's period.

Cops having camera's is almost certainly the answer to the camera problem, since it seems the camera's aren't going away. The next step is for the media and the people to wait for the full story before jumping to conclusions. Plenty of times now after the uproar, have the police finally released their footage, proving the officer was in the right. As for when the footage proves the officer wrong, then all the more evidence to discipline them.

True there are jobs filled by unqualified people but they are not all equal.  An unqualified doctor can cost lives, an unqualified teacher can cost development of the students and a unqualified police officer well you get the message.  No, I rather have fewer cops that are qualified then many unqualified.  America is the only country where it takes pretty much nothing to become a police officer compared to the rest of the develop world but you expect them to do everything.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56834733

If a Camera cause unqualified police to do their job poorly then they are not fit for the job.  Its a demanding job and its not for everyone.  I would easily rather pay more in taxes for highly qualified police then a bunch of unqualified people just to fill up the ranks.  The thing is, most things people call police for does not need an armed person to show up but because they show up armed any situation can become a deadly situation.  So yeah, I actually do agree with upending how the police force is structured but that is for another topic another day.

As for media or the public jumping to conclusions, that is totally on the police.  Transparency is the key here and trust.  To gain that trust, they must be open from the beginning.  We did not get here not trusting the police overnight, we got here because on many occasions we have seen how the police close ranks when a officer does something wrong.  Its up to the police to show the public they can be trusted.  Police have a great responsibility to their communities and if they seek to be respected then they need to show that same respect.



Chrkeller said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/06/01/tulsa-oklahoma-shooting-medical-building-victims-suspect/7476634001/

We need to arm doctors and nurses.

Most doctors take the Hippocratical Oath and are more or less pacifists.
Like they swear to do no harm, to others, and see it as a life goal to live so.

You want doctors to go around shooting people?



JRPGfan said:
Chrkeller said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/06/01/tulsa-oklahoma-shooting-medical-building-victims-suspect/7476634001/

We need to arm doctors and nurses.

Most doctors take the Hippocratical Oath and are more or less pacifists.
Like they swear to do no harm, to others, and see it as a life goal to live so.

You want doctors to go around shooting people?

I was being sarcastic.  Given many think arming teachers is the answer to school shootings.  "Logically" the solution to this is arm doctors.  So no, I don't personally think that, I am mocking stupidity.  



Well this kind of think should make it sink into some people's heads surely.

"active shooter training from an expert"

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1412813419131068