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Forums - Politics - Shooting at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas (19 Students, 2 Teachers Dead)

Chrkeller said:
cyberninja45 said:

Yes, the more people legally armed in an area and the more people know everyone is armed, the less shit stirred. Show me the study that shows opposite.

Street gang violence happens when mostly only bad people have guns because of stupid gun laws.

Lol, people already did.  Look at gun ownership in the US compared to the EU....  now look at gun violence in the US versus the EU.  You are half right, there is a correlation, just the opposite of your desire.

What study are you referring to? I'm talking about bearing guns not owning guns

 Yes poeple owning guns but not bearing them is bad



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cyberninja45 said:
Chrkeller said:

Lol, people already did.  Look at gun ownership in the US compared to the EU....  now look at gun violence in the US versus the EU.  You are half right, there is a correlation, just the opposite of your desire.

What study are you referring to? I'm talking about bearing guns not owning guns

 Yes poeple owning guns but not bearing them is bad

The rate of gun fatalities varies widely from state to state. In 2020, the states with the highest rates of gun-related deaths – counting murders, suicides and all other categories tracked by the CDC – included Mississippi (28.6 per 100,000 people), Louisiana (26.3), Wyoming (25.9), Missouri (23.9) and Alabama (23.6). The states with the lowest rates included New York (5.3), Rhode Island (5.1), New Jersey (5.0), Massachusetts (3.7) and Hawaii (3.4).

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/



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Chrkeller said:
cyberninja45 said:

What study are you referring to? I'm talking about bearing guns not owning guns

 Yes poeple owning guns but not bearing them is bad

The rate of gun fatalities varies widely from state to state. In 2020, the states with the highest rates of gun-related deaths – counting murders, suicides and all other categories tracked by the CDC – included Mississippi (28.6 per 100,000 people), Louisiana (26.3), Wyoming (25.9), Missouri (23.9) and Alabama (23.6). The states with the lowest rates included New York (5.3), Rhode Island (5.1), New Jersey (5.0), Massachusetts (3.7) and Hawaii (3.4).

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

So ur..does this "study" came to the conclusion the more the people legally bearing arms in an area the more shit stirred?

Edit: I'm not even counting the gun ownership/availability factor. Just the above statement alone.



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ConservagameR said:

Everyone acts different when the camera is on. Many can't take the heat, and it's hard to blame them.

No win. That's very well put. I tend to agree.

If you're a cop, or any profession, and you think you're likely screwed either way now, the way to proceed is whichever harms yourself and your family and community the least. Which is extremely sad, especially when it comes to events like this, but that's what's happening to the US.

When people have to choose between themselves and others, when it comes down to it, most will pick themselves.

If you cannot handle the job then you are unqualified to do it period.  I have to say that is the biggest weakness to this defense you have of some people cannot handle being on camera.  Its the job now and so if you cannot handle it, you should not be doing it.

The thing is, the trust of the police is gone because the police did not properly handle the bad apples within their ranks.  Instead of dealing with them as they should, they attempted to protect them at all cost.  Once you lose trust, it takes a long time to gain it back.  Every professional trade has gone through this from doctors, nurses, lawyers you name it.  When trust is gone there needs to be measures to bring it back.  So yes, every cop needs to have a camera running at all times for any incident between them and a suspect.  We have seen on countless occasions of police abusing their power as well as corruptions within their ranks.  Its not an easy job and everyone isn't cut out to be a police officer nor should they be.



cyberninja45 said:
Ryuu96 said:

Speaking as a Brit, I definitely feel safer that everyone doesn't walk around with guns, I'm not standing around a bunch of strangers armed to the teeth not knowing their frame of mind or training, even cops in America who are meant to be professionally trained are often trigger happy as fuck, I don't trust the general public to be much better and before the knife argument comes out, I'd much rather take my chances at surviving a knife attack than a gun attack.

The only thing I'm worried about at a campfire in the woods is what wildlife is there.

Sorry but it's delusional to think that because everyone is packing that nobody would dare to start anything, cause that totally deters street gang violence, right? It especially won't deter someone who is mentally ill, they won't give a shit about who is packing, a lot of these lunatics are already going out with the expectation or even desire that they're going to die but want to take as many people as possible with them.

It's also a fact that the murderer will have the advantage simply because they have it set in their mind already that they're going to kill someone, they're already mentally prepared, they know what they're going to do, whereas civilians aren't going to be 24/7 thinking "I have to be prepared in case I get shot" as a result the murderer has the jump on people and could easily take out a few armed civilians before being taken out himself.

Not to mention the sheer panic that would ensue, you seem to think that all there is to having a gun is learning how to aim and shoot but it's not, there's a huge mental hurdle to get over which nothing can train you for until you're in the situation, many will freeze, many will run, a few will fire back but their reaction times will vary and almost certainly they'll be some blind firing going on, point is, it'd be a mess.

This "hero with a gun saving the day" is mostly a myth by gun owners to justify their clinging onto such a law and make themselves feel good, cause they often think of themselves as that hero who would save the day when in actual fact, I suspect that many of them would actually turn and run. I can't even say what I would do and I wouldn't because the fact is that nobody knows what they'd do until they're in that situation.

Yes, the more people legally armed in an area and the more people know everyone is armed, the less shit stirred. Show me the study that shows opposite.

Street gang violence happens when mostly only criminals have guns because of stupid gun laws.

Here's one: https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/364/bmj.l542.full.pdf

Conclusion is that as gun ownership trends up so does mass shootings. Your hypothesis is that if you just kept going eventually it would start going down, but you have no basis for this. 



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Ryuu96 said:
cyberninja45 said:

Yes, the more people legally armed in an area and the more people know everyone is armed, the less shit stirred. Show me the study that shows opposite.

Street gang violence happens when mostly only criminals have guns because of stupid gun laws.

America is the study.

Great, now lets give everyone a gun, even more criminals now have guns, brilliant plan.

You think a criminal won't commit a crime because someone has a gun? Lol. There's criminals all over America who know full well someone has a gun and still commit a crime, or at least go in with the assumption that someone has a gun.

As for this specific case of this psychopath, once again, a lot of these mass murdering gunmen aren't going in to commit this crime and expecting to come out alive, especially not with America's cops.

They. Won't. Care. They often want to die, they just also want to take down as many people with them as possible before that happens.

What America shows is high gun availability and people not bearing is bad. My point.



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Chrkeller said:

Cyber Ninja has a point. I mean the best way to prevent forest fires is dropping a bunch of gasoline and matches in the woods. Duh guys!

Lol this is actually a slightly bad example for Australia as controlled burns happen to prevent major disasters. Our Gum trees and probably other native plants actually require fire for the seeds to germinate and grow, guessing because of how they adopted to our burning environment lol. I guess its natures way of regrowing in a burnt down environment.

The aboriginals used to do controlled burns to ensure the forest would continue to thrive and not burn down to a crisp.  We do a lot of controlled burning here too to burn the fuel on the ground but when money runs out and the fuel piles up after a few seasons of summer, watch out that forest is burning right down trees and all destroy the habitat for native animals. Sadly we are usually so dry and hot that we will continue to burn pretty much every year somewhere that hasn't had any controlled burning done to it. 



 

 

cyberninja45 said:
Chrkeller said:

The rate of gun fatalities varies widely from state to state. In 2020, the states with the highest rates of gun-related deaths – counting murders, suicides and all other categories tracked by the CDC – included Mississippi (28.6 per 100,000 people), Louisiana (26.3), Wyoming (25.9), Missouri (23.9) and Alabama (23.6). The states with the lowest rates included New York (5.3), Rhode Island (5.1), New Jersey (5.0), Massachusetts (3.7) and Hawaii (3.4).

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

So ur..does this "study" came to the conclusion the more the people legally bearing arms in an area the more shit stirred?

Edit: I'm not even counting the gun ownership/availability factor. Just the above statement alone.

With all due respect there is no point in people, including myself, providing data.  You will only accept the answer you want to hear.  The data is crystal clear for those who are open minded.  

Access to firearms increases violence, full stop.  More guns isn't the answer.  



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cyberninja45 said:

Yes, the more people legally armed in an area and the more people know everyone is armed, the less shit stirred. Show me the study that shows opposite.

Street gang violence happens when mostly only criminals have guns because of stupid gun laws.

Actually, what most studies have shown is no reduction of crime at all, but instead more violent encounters because everyone use the tool of choice for every encounter.  If you are packing and someone else is packing, any argument has a high probability that the dispute will be resolved with the main tool of choice.  Studies have shone an increase in deadly encounters when more people actually conceal and carry.

Case in point, lets say you get in an argument with someone and they push you down, with all the stand your ground laws now, this would be the perfect opportunity to shoot that person in self defense.  You reaching for your gun would be the perfect time to the other person to kill you in self defense.

You start a fight but you are getting your butt kicked, well you pull out your gun in self defense.  You see a robbery, you pull out your gun.  You witness a fight, you pull out your gun.  What studies have shone is that the gun become the most common tool used for every incident so each encounter escalate.  Living in places where everyone is armed actually does not make you feel safer, it make you more paranoid because any encounter can end with someone resolving it with a gun.

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 01 June 2022

Kind of interesting that guns are promoted for defense purposes, but yet over 50% of gun deaths in the US are suicides... meaning people are more likely to shoot themselves than others.

-pulled the data from the CDC



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