You are proposing negotiating with a terrorist. putler is not a legitimate president to begin with. Do you know how he came to power? Like all dictators - by spilling others blood. His first presidential campaign was won by blowing up a house with innocent people in it and then pretending that he found the perpetrators, while he was the chief of KGB. Do you know how he became the chief of KGB? He was placed there because he had experience in sales, selling stolen properties. Just russia things. His only fear is losing the billions he has stolen and getting sentenced, he doesn't care about russia and russians.

I can't understand how someone could just say Ukraine should give up. That they don't get why are they still fighting. Why are they willing to die fighting instead of just accepting Russia's terms.

It's specially hurting because everything these people have, all the rights and freedom they enjoy today... Those were not accomplished by just bowing and avoid conflict and death. Workers could have just bowed and keep working 16 hours a day for 5 dolars a day instead of fighting and putting their lifes at risk. Women could have just stayed quiet in the kitchen instead of fighting for their rights. The allies could have just bowed to Germany and let them conquer at will to avoid many deaths on their own countries.

But doing so would have meant giving up on our freedom. Our humanity. And condemning the coming generations with a future where they will live their whole lifes in miserable conditions and under the rule of some bullies.

If Ukraine gives up... If Ukraine accepts all of Russia's demands... Ukraine will lose its identity. They will lose democracy, and with it, their sovereing power. They will become a puppet of Russia. And worst of all: Russia will think they will be able to do the same to other ex URSS countries and get away with it. It would set a very dangerous precedent.

But if Ukraine keeps fighting and we keep helping them in every way we can... We will not only show Russia that they cannot take everything they want without a massive beatdown of both their army and economy: we give the ukrainian people a chance of keeping their identity and freedom.

I don't want anyone to die. I don't want anyone to have to leave their homes. But sometimes we have to put our lives on the line in order to fight for not only our own future, but the future of our children. Many workers at factories died for asking more rights. Many soldiers and civilians died on WWII fighting for their freedom. Many women died for asking for equality. But as sad as those deaths were... Their fight was not wrong. And I'm proud of them all, because thanks to them we all live in a better world.

I'm proud of Ukraine because they are fighting against tirany and for their future. And all I can do is encourage them and wish they can prevail in the end and show Russia that their actions will not be tolerated.

I think KratosLives is missing the point here. These people would rather die than negotiate a fucked up situation to live in.

I lived under the old USSR as would have many of these Ukrainian people. They don't want to go back to that life, they soon rather fight and die then be Russia's bitch.

Nahh, there are enough who really think like him. Not sure what he would even say without a possible ban from this forum but from my own experience at my work there are not only Russians (and all I know are 100% pro Putin in this case) but in my case also some Germans completely on Putin's side. A minority but still some I know sadly.

Arguing about how it's understandable because Russia is surrounded by enemies, how Ukraine is probably working on bio weapons with USA's help to be a thread in the future to Russians and stuff like that. 

I mean, sure, it does suck for Russia that especially USA seems to surround Russia from everywhere but that's still no argument to attack Ukraine.

1) Surrounded by a defensive pack is not a threat. NATO has never been the aggressor. If individual nations that happen to be in NATO choose to aggressively attack someone, the entirety of NATO will not join and those that do will be in the minority. There is literally no threat of NATO invasion to Russia. 

2) It isn't NATO's fault, or the EU, that what they offer is more appealing than what the Russian Ivan the Terrible -Maximilien Robespierre-like government offers.

3) It isn't anyone's fault that Russia has so many flanks to defend except their own. When you have by far the most border mileage with other nations in the world, you just have to get used to that. They have more territory to defend than anyone else, yet they keep wanting more.

I wish people would stop reducing everything to black and white, good vs evil. This stuff is also disgusting and will create more animosity for years if not generations. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/07/antirussian-hate-putin-europe/

As for the choice let the invaders in, settle in, then peacefully try to remove or convert them vs all out resistance, that choice has already been made. There's not really a way back now. If you had done nothing from the start, the soldiers would have been very reluctant to kill anyone or destroy anything.

But true, then all people in power would have been removed and replaced with new puppets, people moved around, many displaced likely. And it would have taken many years of inside and outside pressure to begin trying to get self governance back. Meanwhile anyone with a protest voice would have ended up in a Syberian gulag.

Yet now there are tons of dead people, millions displaced, billions of damage to the infrastructure. The country is effectively set back decades and will take several generations to repair once the war is over.

There is no good outcome. One reduces the loss of life, the other reduces to loss of freedom. Some people value life more, others value freedom more. Option one only works if everyone values life more than who is in / takes charge. It's not a realistic option. Everything in our history, media and what not screams freedom > life. So the only way 'out' is to repel the invaders. The question is how to do it while minimizing losses.

NATO members are against a no-fly zone but wouldn't it be at least fair to say there will be one if any more troops or rockets will reach Ukraine from any other country as Russia? If it's a war between Russia and Ukraine and if any bigger involvement from NATO is considered the potential start of WWIII from NATO itself  I wonder why this isn't at least part of that "deal" that Russia has to fight his ugly war only from Russian ground to Ukraine

So russians in russia last year weren't happy or have the ability to live a great life there? Did I miss something?

All I want is someone to explain to me how agreeing to putin's terms, is worse than what is happening right now and what will keep happening for God knows how long. Is there anything greater than the life of a human?  Once people start dying and cities are ruined, then it's too late, you've failed to protect what's most important. 

And no i'm not a russian sympathiser or paid by putin as some chap suggested. I'm an australian living in australia. All I care about are the people caught up and getting hurt.  

Nothing is EVER white, most countries are grey, but occassionally a country is black. So it isn't black and white, but rather black and gray.

Hitler's Germany was black, Japan's treatement of the Chinese in WW2 was black, Stalin's USSR was black, France's Reign of Terror was black, ISIS is black, North Korea is black, Early USA slaugtering Native Americans was black as well as having slaves, China is black, and yes, Putin's Russia is black.

What are some examples that make a country black?

- Attaching dissidents to canons to let their bodies explode like the North Koreans do.

- Genocide against any people group like the Chinese, Hitler's Germany, and USSR did.

- Putin's Russia using weapons that suck out oxygen from the lungs and many times cause lungs to explode, carpet bombing indiscriminately, jailing and murdering dissidents and political opponents within the nation who aren't doing anything illegal. The comprehensive list of all the universal evils Russia has committed in the last two weeks alone is insane. Hitler didn't even move at this fast of a pace to turn his nation into an anyone-against-me-is-evil-and-must-die state. Some things are black, and Putin's Russia is absolutely, without a doubt, universally, objectively, flat out, any-other-redundant-word-to-let-this-point-hit-home, black.