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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Might get worse for CDPR....

shikamaru317 said:
Eagle367 said:

One Blundered launch is the understatement of the millenia. This "one blundered launch" is equal to enough drama for a decade or 2 for many companies. CDPR will be fine financially but underselling the disaster that is Cyberpunk 2077 isn't the way to go. They are just another 3rd party company now so their image is damaged enough that it will take at least a decade to recover. They aren't in their own class anymore,

I don't know if I agree with that. One only has to look at their tweets to see quite a few highly upvoted replies from CD Projekt fans who are standing by them during this controversy. Look at some of the replies to their latest tweet:

Quite alot of top replies saying things like "We believe in you" and "thank you for your hard work during the Holidays". Yes, their image is damaged in some people's eyes for sure, and it will take time to win back those people's trust, but they clearly still have a ton of fans who see them as one of the AAA gaming greats in spite of the controversy. 

All we have to do as look back at some other controversial games of this generation like No Man's Sky and Fallout 76 to see that studios and their games can bounce back pretty quickly from controversy. Both No Man's Sky and Fallout 76 got slammed on release, with poor user reviews and anger about lies the developers told, but here we are years later and both games are still regulars on most played lists, while Fallout 76 is still a top seller, making it onto Steam's 2020 bestsellers list this year. Not only that, but Bethesda's Starfield and Elder Scrolls 6 are still highly anticipated releases.

When Fallout 76 released, people acted like it was the end of the world for Bethesda, acted like they would never recover from the damage it did, but here we are 2 years later and already the majority of gamers, especially casual gamers, have long since forgotten about the controversy (if they ever cared about it to start with) and many of them are still playing Fallout 76 to this day (27th on Xbox US most played games list currently for instance). 

People have Stockholm syndrome with AAA devs. They raise a big stink then AAA dev throws them a piece of candy and they forgive and buy the next big broken product after mad hype and the cycle repeats. I don't just have issue with AAA devs but people enabling this bullshit.



Bite my shiny metal cockpit!

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Anyone still defending CDPR, watch this video:
https://youtu.be/_CymqHdNYkg

Also RIP Hwangbo, you will be missed



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

I was planning to wait for a proper next gen version, but I think I'll simply pass on this 'game'. It just seems very badly put together. Nice eye candy, yet by the time this is in a more playable, more finished state, better eye candy will be out with real game play.

The problem is, yes they might fix it and even finish the game. However, reviewers can't be trusted, and since there are already tons of people proclaiming it the best game ever in its current state, players can't be trusted either. It's not that I mind buying a dud, it's sinking time into it to come out feeling frustrated with what could have been.

I guess the magic is gone. I enjoyed the branching paths in The Witcher 2, felt revolutionary to play the story from both sides. (I had two saves going concurrently, playing from both sides a mission at a time). TW3 was a step back to that, Cyberpunk seems to have regressed even further. It's like every new gen brings less options.



SvennoJ said:

I was planning to wait for a proper next gen version, but I think I'll simply pass on this 'game'. It just seems very badly put together. Nice eye candy, yet by the time this is in a more playable, more finished state, better eye candy will be out with real game play.

The problem is, yes they might fix it and even finish the game. However, reviewers can't be trusted, and since there are already tons of people proclaiming it the best game ever in its current state, players can't be trusted either. It's not that I mind buying a dud, it's sinking time into it to come out feeling frustrated with what could have been.

I guess the magic is gone. I enjoyed the branching paths in The Witcher 2, felt revolutionary to play the story from both sides. (I had two saves going concurrently, playing from both sides a mission at a time). TW3 was a step back to that, Cyberpunk seems to have regressed even further. It's like every new gen brings less options.

Welcome to my jaded reality. 

This is what I've been wanting from a myriad of AAA companies, and they all end up resorting to "ooh, small shiny thing!". Each time it happens, another time AI is braindead, another time a game hasn't really innovated as much to push the entire medium forward, and never backward (unless you're like Nintendo, who does this EVERY FUCKING TIME WITH EVERY GAME, lookin at you New Horizons!).

I know Cyberpunk will get those patches, but I know for damn sure they'll never fix the AI or deliver on most of those near decade long promises, because really, thinking like a stuck up CEo/Manager, I'd say that wouldn't make me money or business sense, and considering all that's transpired, those buggers haven't been fired yet, so we're likely to see an outcome of half delivered promises up to a year or two down the line, but they'll never reach NMS level of redemption. 

But this is me, this is me nearly all the time, bud. I'm hella jaded, because I'm at that stage where I know we should be getting better AI, bigger and more immersive, interactive worlds, but we're never getting them any time soon, because suits are greedy fuckers, who quite literally hold back innovation, because it doesn't line their coffers. I look at all these AAA games and I know they can be so much more, but they don't, because someone's always holding them back from being what they could be, and that really gets me jaded like fuck.

I'm used to expecting the absolute worst at this point in my gaming life tbh. New game announced for PC?, bet it'll go EGS exclusive or come with MT's, be a butchered port, or a 2077 bugfest experience, or a genre that's well and truly saturated to fuck (like FPS, TBS, TBRPG, BR etc). At first I tried looking at the positives, but those just grew smaller over the years, and well, EG made damn sure I don't look forward to any kind of small or even big game, without me flinging hate at a dev team for being so damn short sighted with an obvious as fuck short term, anti-consumer deal.



Step right up come on in, feel the buzz in your veins, I'm like an chemical electrical right into your brain and I'm the one who killed the Radio, soon you'll all see

So pay up motherfuckers you belong to "V"

Eagle367 said:

Anyone still defending CDPR, watch this video:
https://youtu.be/_CymqHdNYkg

Also RIP Hwangbo, you will be missed

Chazore said:
SvennoJ said:

I was planning to wait for a proper next gen version, but I think I'll simply pass on this 'game'. It just seems very badly put together. Nice eye candy, yet by the time this is in a more playable, more finished state, better eye candy will be out with real game play.

The problem is, yes they might fix it and even finish the game. However, reviewers can't be trusted, and since there are already tons of people proclaiming it the best game ever in its current state, players can't be trusted either. It's not that I mind buying a dud, it's sinking time into it to come out feeling frustrated with what could have been.

I guess the magic is gone. I enjoyed the branching paths in The Witcher 2, felt revolutionary to play the story from both sides. (I had two saves going concurrently, playing from both sides a mission at a time). TW3 was a step back to that, Cyberpunk seems to have regressed even further. It's like every new gen brings less options.

Welcome to my jaded reality. 

This is what I've been wanting from a myriad of AAA companies, and they all end up resorting to "ooh, small shiny thing!". Each time it happens, another time AI is braindead, another time a game hasn't really innovated as much to push the entire medium forward, and never backward (unless you're like Nintendo, who does this EVERY FUCKING TIME WITH EVERY GAME, lookin at you New Horizons!).

I know Cyberpunk will get those patches, but I know for damn sure they'll never fix the AI or deliver on most of those near decade long promises, because really, thinking like a stuck up CEo/Manager, I'd say that wouldn't make me money or business sense, and considering all that's transpired, those buggers haven't been fired yet, so we're likely to see an outcome of half delivered promises up to a year or two down the line, but they'll never reach NMS level of redemption. 

But this is me, this is me nearly all the time, bud. I'm hella jaded, because I'm at that stage where I know we should be getting better AI, bigger and more immersive, interactive worlds, but we're never getting them any time soon, because suits are greedy fuckers, who quite literally hold back innovation, because it doesn't line their coffers. I look at all these AAA games and I know they can be so much more, but they don't, because someone's always holding them back from being what they could be, and that really gets me jaded like fuck.

I'm used to expecting the absolute worst at this point in my gaming life tbh. New game announced for PC?, bet it'll go EGS exclusive or come with MT's, be a butchered port, or a 2077 bugfest experience, or a genre that's well and truly saturated to fuck (like FPS, TBS, TBRPG, BR etc). At first I tried looking at the positives, but those just grew smaller over the years, and well, EG made damn sure I don't look forward to any kind of small or even big game, without me flinging hate at a dev team for being so damn short sighted with an obvious as fuck short term, anti-consumer deal.

The shiniest possible graphics look like the worst resource guzzler, leaving only the crumbs for deeper aspects of games like gameplay, AI, interactivity, openness, multidimensionality and nonlinearity.
The other enemy for games aiming at such deeper goals is how much time and money they can cost if the wishlist gets out of control, like in Star Citizen, if we want an example of a game where they try to fulfil the promises, but keep on promising too many new things and get caught in a neverending vicious circle, or like in Duke Nukem Forever, where 15 years of promises were actually fulfilled with a giant pile of dung. All this frightens both execs and investors, and the latter cannot really play innocent as if execs took the easy, shiny and sloppy, but financially safest choice by themselves.
The only solution could be to decide the deepest aspects of a game first, ensure they are viable on the HW they are expected to run on and only at the end decide the level of graphics that will be viable too on top of them, but this will make pure graphics whores unhappy. But both Ninty and the best CDPR past games, and many other excellent games and devs teach us that really good games don't need to please graphics whores first to succeed.
I don't think last gen computing power was the problem: 7th gen had powerful enough CPUs and GPUs, but really not enough RAM for the largest and most interactive worlds, unless devs devised clever and as smooth as possible ways to dynamically load limited portions of an open world at a time, a thing that in a very coarse way was done even during 6th gen, for example in Morrowind (with the added compromise of separating with non dynamic loadings single indoors environments from the large, dynamically loaded oudoors), but 8th gen was totally capable of managing games with vast interactive worlds.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
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TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


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Alby_da_Wolf said:

The shiniest possible graphics look like the worst resource guzzler, leaving only the crumbs for deeper aspects of games like gameplay, AI, interactivity, openness, multidimensionality and nonlinearity.
The other enemy for games aiming at such deeper goals is how much time and money they can cost if the wishlist gets out of control, like in Star Citizen, if we want an example of a game where they try to fulfil the promises, but keep on promising too many new things and get caught in a neverending vicious circle, or like in Duke Nukem Forever, where 15 years of promises were actually fulfilled with a giant pile of dung. All this frightens both execs and investors, and the latter cannot really play innocent as if execs took the easy, shiny and sloppy, but financially safest choice by themselves.
The only solution could be to decide the deepest aspects of a game first, ensure they are viable on the HW they are expected to run on and only at the end decide the level of graphics that will be viable too on top of them, but this will make pure graphics whores unhappy. But both Ninty and the best CDPR past games, and many other excellent games and devs teach us that really good games don't need to please graphics whores first to succeed.
I don't think last gen computing power was the problem: 7th gen had powerful enough CPUs and GPUs, but really not enough RAM for the largest and most interactive worlds, unless devs devised clever and as smooth as possible ways to dynamically load limited portions of an open world at a time, a thing that in a very coarse way was done even during 6th gen, for example in Morrowind (with the added compromise of separating with non dynamic loadings single indoors environments from the large, dynamically loaded oudoors), but 8th gen was totally capable of managing games with vast interactive worlds.

Star Citizen is mired with tacked on promises, but at the same time, it is being handled by possibly the worst guy in history, with peter and Todd howard right behind him. Roberts mishandled his old games, his movies and even his current game project for now a decade. The man is not fit for overseeing the dev of the game at all, and I'm surprised hardly anyone here even knows of Robert's previous dev history.

CDPR was supposed to get the scope of the game sorted within the first two years, concepts at least drawn up and finished within 2 years at the least. It feels like they wasted 6 years dicking around with concepts and other ideas for 6 years and the last 2ish years spent cobbling together demos and what is apparently a "final product", but it's obvious that management was the lead cause, because devs do as they are told when you're in a AAA style company.

I do strongly feel like 2077 should have targeted current gen and PC, instead of last gen, last gen refresh systems, because that's just adding more tasks to getting the game out the door. We know what happens when a game is cross-gen, it ends up looking half n' half, because it's designed for the weaker hw, and those limitations end up being tacked onto hw that should be more than capable of running said game.

Like this new gen for example, I fully expect us to finally move past super poor shadow/object LoD's, because last gen on PC ports basically had shadow/object LoD's having the game worlds look like a slideshow (seeing shadows and object LoD's like in GTA V practically drawn into view within 1-2ft and that's jarring to someone like me, even when driving in those games). If we cannot move past last gen limitations with current gen, it's going to be another scenario of "slightly pretty, but more of the same", which means we're stifling once again, when we shouldn't.



Step right up come on in, feel the buzz in your veins, I'm like an chemical electrical right into your brain and I'm the one who killed the Radio, soon you'll all see

So pay up motherfuckers you belong to "V"

Eagle367 said:

Anyone still defending CDPR, watch this video:
https://youtu.be/_CymqHdNYkg

Also RIP Hwangbo, you will be missed

I tried to replicate the stuff in that video and couldn’t. At least what was shown in the first twenty minutes or so of the video. NPC’s don’t disappear for me, vehicles haven’t randomly popped in one time in my sixteen hours in the game. I do agree with the video about the RPG elements being lacking but at the same time, I’m perfectly fine with a GTA game with RPG elements. 

Disagree about the city being lifeless as well. You can walk around and find all sorts of interesting shit happening. The guy seemed to pick a random NPC and follow them around expecting something cool to happen or some routine that he could observe the NPC doing for eternity. Like he expected the NPC to go to work, go to lunch, leave work, do something, go home and sleep, and do it all again the next day LOL. I can’t think of any open world game outside of RDR2 where that’s happened and there are way less NPC’s in RDR2. I enjoy the random elements of the city, they did a good job there. I was on a mission earlier and stumbled upon two dudes arguing about a drug deal. It escalated until the higher “rank” guy accused the other of stealing some of the drugs he’d collected for him and tried to kill him. Other dude shot and killed him and ran off. NPC’s around ran off or ducked for cover.

Ill give the rest of the video a view some other time.



LudicrousSpeed said:
Eagle367 said:

Anyone still defending CDPR, watch this video:
https://youtu.be/_CymqHdNYkg

Also RIP Hwangbo, you will be missed

I tried to replicate the stuff in that video and couldn’t. At least what was shown in the first twenty minutes or so of the video. NPC’s don’t disappear for me, vehicles haven’t randomly popped in one time in my sixteen hours in the game. I do agree with the video about the RPG elements being lacking but at the same time, I’m perfectly fine with a GTA game with RPG elements. 

Disagree about the city being lifeless as well. You can walk around and find all sorts of interesting shit happening. The guy seemed to pick a random NPC and follow them around expecting something cool to happen or some routine that he could observe the NPC doing for eternity. Like he expected the NPC to go to work, go to lunch, leave work, do something, go home and sleep, and do it all again the next day LOL. I can’t think of any open world game outside of RDR2 where that’s happened and there are way less NPC’s in RDR2. I enjoy the random elements of the city, they did a good job there. I was on a mission earlier and stumbled upon two dudes arguing about a drug deal. It escalated until the higher “rank” guy accused the other of stealing some of the drugs he’d collected for him and tried to kill him. Other dude shot and killed him and ran off. NPC’s around ran off or ducked for cover.

Ill give the rest of the video a view some other time.

It's just all very strange. Many people have complained about NPCs disappearing when you turn your back on them. Why does it happen to some people but not to others. He also goes on about noticing many of the same glitches he's seen in other videos, including in his own play through and it's always the same. Yet you keep saying everything is fine. Are there multiple versions of the game in circulation???

"I was on a mission earlier and stumbled upon two dudes arguing about a drug deal." What you're describing is a scripted event, not radiant AI. The video goes into those scripted events and he also states he doesn't expect everyone to have daily routines, yet couldn't find anyone with a routine. His main complaint is, everything that happens is the same for everyone else. You can't change the outcome, you can't influence the sequence of events down to the exact moment npcs are supposed to die. That's fine for a linear game like Naughty Dog makes, completely at odds with open world design.

Anyway I was listening to it while playing FS2020 so I haven't actually seen everything he talked about, yet how many videos have to show the same things in different footage? This game is a step back in so many ways. CDPR should forget about open world design and go back to TW2 style game design. It didn't work for me in TW3 and this just seems so much worse. CDPR is great at making scripted events, side quests and they do a decent job at creating the illusion of freedom and choice. Yet throwing in a completely broken open world undermines all that.

Rockstar can't fully pull it off either btw. RDR2 falls apart in many of the main missions as well as GTA 5. Imo Fallout is far better at placing scripted stories inside a living open world. Up to Fallout 4 anyway.



LudicrousSpeed said:
Eagle367 said:

Anyone still defending CDPR, watch this video:
https://youtu.be/_CymqHdNYkg

Also RIP Hwangbo, you will be missed

I tried to replicate the stuff in that video and couldn’t. At least what was shown in the first twenty minutes or so of the video. NPC’s don’t disappear for me, vehicles haven’t randomly popped in one time in my sixteen hours in the game. I do agree with the video about the RPG elements being lacking but at the same time, I’m perfectly fine with a GTA game with RPG elements. 

Disagree about the city being lifeless as well. You can walk around and find all sorts of interesting shit happening. The guy seemed to pick a random NPC and follow them around expecting something cool to happen or some routine that he could observe the NPC doing for eternity. Like he expected the NPC to go to work, go to lunch, leave work, do something, go home and sleep, and do it all again the next day LOL. I can’t think of any open world game outside of RDR2 where that’s happened and there are way less NPC’s in RDR2. I enjoy the random elements of the city, they did a good job there. I was on a mission earlier and stumbled upon two dudes arguing about a drug deal. It escalated until the higher “rank” guy accused the other of stealing some of the drugs he’d collected for him and tried to kill him. Other dude shot and killed him and ran off. NPC’s around ran off or ducked for cover.

Ill give the rest of the video a view some other time.

Yeah, I also had issues with that video, what I watched of it anyway. Much like you, I haven't experienced most of the glitches that people claim to see. I don't think I've seen an NPC disappear once. Is the NPC AI amazing? No, not really, I especially hate how they all crouch down on the street if you fight somebody and then get stuck in that crouched position, you would think that some would run screaming or something. But some of the things he is expecting for the AI are just unrealistic, like a full daily routine for NPC's in a game the size of Cyberpunk that makes use of NPC randomization. Basically only Rockstar and Bethesda do NPC's with routines that I can think of, and Bethesda games have less than 1/10th the number of NPC's that there are in Cyberpunk, while RDR2's budget was more than twice Cyberpunk; RDR2 is basically a AAAA game, Cyberpunk is a mere AAA, people shouldn't be going in with AAAA expectations for it. 

Some of the things that CD Projekt talked about in early demos like the deep romance system and car customization CD Projekt said in later interviews had been cut from the game, so it's not really fair to say that they lied about those features, lots of devs talk about features early development that later get cut due to lack of time or an inability to make them work within the games budget. This isn't a No Man's Sky like scenario where the game released without half the features that Hello Games promised for it, without the devs telling people that the game wouldn't release with those features beforehand. 



I didn't experience it so everyone else is lying. Also not having full routines is one thing but not having any routine whatsoever is quite another. Also a creepy NPC that follows you everywhere. Cars bugging out, etc. And did you guys check to see whether the sequences are randomized or completely preset? Like a gang fight in the street does it happen randomly or does it happen everytime you reload the game and go to that area? I mean it's clear to me Wood wasn't the only one who suffered these issues as they have all been mentioned elsewhere. Also he's a pretty chill and forgiving guy with regards to games. I've watched multiple of his videos and he gives a lot of leeway to games. So for him to say this about Cyberpunk 2078 means something. And at the very least cam you guys acknowledge that this game isn't revolutionary or special whatsoever? Like it isn't reinventing the wheel on any aspect of gaming. It's just another bug filled first person shooter



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