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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Digital Foundry - Dirt 5

shikamaru317 said:
JRPGfan said:

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/06/10/inside-xbox-series-x-optimized-dirt-5/

"Q: What is it like developing on Xbox Series X?

A: Transitioning development to a new console platform, like Xbox Series X, is usually very painful. You have to deal with new tools, new workflows, new ways of thinking. This time around the team at Xbox brought me a new toolset called the Game Development Kit, which they already had up and running on Xbox One.

This meant that we could make the transition much earlier. In fact, we started doing the groundwork for Xbox Series X development long before we even received the hardware. This kind of thinking from Xbox allowed us to get a real head-start on next-gen development, so after receiving our early Xbox Series X hardware, we were up and running really quickly.

For me, the most important thing in making a videogame is the relationships. Working with Xbox, is a partnership – the team at Xbox is committed to helping us make a great videogame and they’ve shown that to me again and again. That means being open and honest about our experiences; what we’ve loved and perhaps even what we’ve found difficult in development has had meaningful, visible impact on the updates that I get for the tools for Series X. (Shout out to our development partner at Xbox, Richard Hackett! Thanks Rich!)

I’ve never worked on a console launch where, while we’re still months away from release, the tools have been this mature, this stable, this easy to work with."

- Technical Director at Codemasters David Springate  (direct quote)

This is straigth from the dev's on dirt 5's on mouths.

Praiseing how early they had a dev kit, how much they loved the new GDK, and how it allowed them a easy "jump start" on next gen developement.


This was from back in early june (dirt5 devs):

People keep saying "tools fault" , "they didnt have dev kits in time" ect.

Dirt 5 devs, praised both the toolset, and how easy to use it was, and claim to have had plenty of time with dev kits.

Did you ever think maybe they were lying and only singing praises to MS because MS paid for the marketing rights on Dirt 5? We've staright up had other developers say that the tools were late and radically redesigned compared to what they were used to on Xbox One *shrugs* Like I said, we will find out within a few months, if these launch games get patches that bring the Series X versions in line with the PS5, and if newly released 3rd parties in the coming months show smaller PS5 advantages and an eventual Xbox lead over time, we will know that it was a late tools/devkits thing. I can wait a few months to find out, I'm not in a rush to see which console is the real performance king this gen, can you wait to find out?

There is also a possibility that PS5 just might be easier to code for, easier to extract its performance than Series X. This is the very thing Cerny spoke about. MS made no mention of the same for their dev focused presentations. Each company has really laid everything out quite clearly in terms of the drivers behind their next gen console vision, and I don't get why gamers are ignoring the actual company that makes the console.

That being said I expect parity very soon.



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Shinobi-san said:
shikamaru317 said:

Did you ever think maybe they were lying and only singing praises to MS because MS paid for the marketing rights on Dirt 5? We've staright up had other developers say that the tools were late and radically redesigned compared to what they were used to on Xbox One *shrugs* Like I said, we will find out within a few months, if these launch games get patches that bring the Series X versions in line with the PS5, and if newly released 3rd parties in the coming months show smaller PS5 advantages and an eventual Xbox lead over time, we will know that it was a late tools/devkits thing. I can wait a few months to find out, I'm not in a rush to see which console is the real performance king this gen, can you wait to find out?

There is also a possibility that PS5 just might be easier to code for, easier to extract its performance than Series X. This is the very thing Cerny spoke about. MS made no mention of the same for their dev focused presentations. Each company has really laid everything out quite clearly in terms of the drivers behind their next gen console vision, and I don't get why gamers are ignoring the actual company that makes the console.

That being said I expect parity very soon.

And that is also part of why I find this whole thing strange. The new Xbox Game Core dev tools were designed to make Xbox development easier, the entirety of Series S | X and the Game Core dev tools were designed to make Xbox development more PC like, so that developers could easily port their PC version (which is the version that most developers make first) onto S and X, choose the PC resolution and graphical settings which make the most sense for each console, and then optimize to hit those settings with a good framerate at the desired resolution. With Series S and X being more PC like than ever before, optimizing for them should not be difficult, and yet both Series S and X are preforming below expectations on launch games. 

That tells me the answer for the poor performance is one of 3 things personally:

1. The late tools/dev kit rumors are true, and devs just didn't have time to used to Xbox Series ahead of launch. This theory makes the most sense to me and has been backed up by some indie devs I believe I read. These consoles were coming in hot during a pandemic afterall, and we've had rumors all year that MS was behind schedule during development. I mean just look at how many of their 1st and 3rd party launch window exclusives have been delayed out of the launch window, Halo, CrossFireX, 12 Minutes, The Medium, The Ascent, The Artful Escape, that reeks to me of dev kits and tools coming out late.

2. PS5, despite having on paper lower specs except for the SSD speed and pixel fill rate, is easier to develop for in spite of Microsoft's effort to make porting from PC to Series S | X easier. Possible I'd say, but not as likely as the delayed tools/devkits.

3. 3rd party devs are just being lazy and don't want to optimize for both S and X, and are just porting over some lower PC settings instead of optimizing to hit higher settings on each console. If it was just Ubisoft's launch games having issues, I'd say this was the culprit, as they are well known to be lazy optimizers, but Dirt 5, which MS had marketing on, is also behind, and PS5 also has an advantage in one of DMC 5's performance modes. I don't think this is the issue personally. 



Manlytears said:
numberwang said:

How about his claim, MS?

With all due respect...
indeed, Series S situation is shameful for microsoft. Results shown so far prove that the "model S" is a disappointment, the difference between an S and a PS5DE is absolutely monstrous, with a difference of just $ 100 in price.
My conclusion? Series S is a product designed to catch unsuspecting consumers who only look at the price, anyone with an understanding should opt for a PS5DE / PS5 / XSX.

Disagree with this personally. The games where the S performance has been "shameful" so far are mainly the same games where Series X is struggling to keep up with PS5, clearly there is an optimization issue going on somewhere for the entire Xbox Series platform. Yakuza 7 is 1440p 30 fps on S compared to 4K 30 fps on X, exactly the performance difference between the two consoles that MS promoted, and the Dragon Engine in Yakuza is one of the most demanding engines. Series S is pulling off I believe 900p-1080p with ray tracing on Watch Dogs, not bad at all considering how demanding ray tracing is. Gears Tactics is 1440p 60 fps on Series S, and Series S is 1440p dynamic 60 fps on the updated Gears 5 with higher PC graphics settings than the last gen version. CoD is 1440p 60 fps on Series S. The main games where S has struggled are AC Valhalla and Dirt 5, the same two games where Series X is also struggling. 

Yes, Digital PS5 is significantly more powerful than S for $100 more, but you can tell that Sony is taking a huge loss at that price, there is a reason why there seems to be anywhere from 4x-8x as many PS5 disc drive units available this Holiday depending on the country and retailer, Sony is clearly trying to minimize their losses from the $400 price point on the digital model until they can get manufacturing costs down. MS is likely selling at a loss on Series S as well, though it is likely a smaller loss than Sony is selling Digital PS5 at, which is why Series S | X stock ratio so far as shown far more Series S units available than digital PS5 units, around 2-3 X units to every 1 S unit in most countries, compared to as many as 8 disc drive PS5's for every 1 digital PS5. 

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 22 November 2020

shikamaru317 said:
JRPGfan said:

https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/06/10/inside-xbox-series-x-optimized-dirt-5/

"Q: What is it like developing on Xbox Series X?

A: Transitioning development to a new console platform, like Xbox Series X, is usually very painful. You have to deal with new tools, new workflows, new ways of thinking. This time around the team at Xbox brought me a new toolset called the Game Development Kit, which they already had up and running on Xbox One.

This meant that we could make the transition much earlier. In fact, we started doing the groundwork for Xbox Series X development long before we even received the hardware. This kind of thinking from Xbox allowed us to get a real head-start on next-gen development, so after receiving our early Xbox Series X hardware, we were up and running really quickly.

For me, the most important thing in making a videogame is the relationships. Working with Xbox, is a partnership – the team at Xbox is committed to helping us make a great videogame and they’ve shown that to me again and again. That means being open and honest about our experiences; what we’ve loved and perhaps even what we’ve found difficult in development has had meaningful, visible impact on the updates that I get for the tools for Series X. (Shout out to our development partner at Xbox, Richard Hackett! Thanks Rich!)

I’ve never worked on a console launch where, while we’re still months away from release, the tools have been this mature, this stable, this easy to work with."

- Technical Director at Codemasters David Springate  (direct quote)

This is straigth from the dev's on dirt 5's on mouths.

Praiseing how early they had a dev kit, how much they loved the new GDK, and how it allowed them a easy "jump start" on next gen developement.


This was from back in early june (dirt5 devs):

People keep saying "tools fault" , "they didnt have dev kits in time" ect.

Dirt 5 devs, praised both the toolset, and how easy to use it was, and claim to have had plenty of time with dev kits.

Did you ever think maybe they were lying and only singing praises to MS because MS paid for the marketing rights on Dirt 5? We've staright up had other developers say that the tools were late and radically redesigned compared to what they were used to on Xbox One *shrugs* Like I said, we will find out within a few months, if these launch games get patches that bring the Series X versions in line with the PS5, and if newly released 3rd parties in the coming months show smaller PS5 advantages and an eventual Xbox lead over time, we will know that it was a late tools/devkits thing. I can wait a few months to find out, I'm not in a rush to see which console is the real performance king this gen, can you wait to find out?

So a lot of devs that have spoken publicly are lying and we are supposed to believe in the ones that are annonymous?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

shikamaru317 said:
Manlytears said:

With all due respect...
indeed, Series S situation is shameful for microsoft. Results shown so far prove that the "model S" is a disappointment, the difference between an S and a PS5DE is absolutely monstrous, with a difference of just $ 100 in price.
My conclusion? Series S is a product designed to catch unsuspecting consumers who only look at the price, anyone with an understanding should opt for a PS5DE / PS5 / XSX.

Disagree with this personally. The games where the S performance has been "shameful" so far are mainly the same games where Series X is struggling to keep up with PS5, clearly there is an optimization issue going on somewhere for the entire Xbox Series platform. Yakuza 7 is 1440p 30 fps on S compared to 4K 30 fps on X, exactly the performance difference between the two consoles that MS promoted, and the Dragon Engine in Yakuza is one of the most demanding engines. Series S is pulling off I believe 900p-1080p with ray tracing on Watch Dogs, not bad at all considering how demanding ray tracing is. Gears Tactics is 1440p 60 fps on Series S, and Series S is 1440p dynamic 60 fps on the updated Gears 5 with higher PC graphics settings than the last gen version. CoD is 1440p 60 fps on Series S. The main games where S has struggled are AC Valhalla and Dirt 5, the same two games where Series X is also struggling. 

Yes, Digital PS5 is significantly more powerful than S for $100 more, but you can tell that Sony is taking a huge loss at that price, there is a reason why there seems to be anywhere from 4x-8x as many PS5 disc drive units available this Holiday depending on the country and retailer, Sony is clearly trying to minimize their losses from the $400 price point on the digital model until they can get manufacturing costs down. MS is likely selling at a loss on Series S as well, though it is likely a smaller loss than Sony is selling Digital PS5 at, which is why Series S | X stock ratio so far as shown far more Series S units available than digital PS5 units, around 2-3 X units to every 1 S unit in most countries, compared to as many as 8 disc drive PS5's for every 1 digital PS5. 

So on the engine that is very heavy (Yakuza) Xbox doesn't show the same issues are in the ones that we have been able to do comparisons?

The very idea of their tools that is to make it easy to devs to develop for multiple platforms, is exactly what also makes it less efficient to hit that sweet spot in one machine. The sooner we cope with that the sooner we will accept that there is no magic to make at same time very low and efficient code and also one size fit all.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

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shikamaru317 said:
Shinobi-san said:

There is also a possibility that PS5 just might be easier to code for, easier to extract its performance than Series X. This is the very thing Cerny spoke about. MS made no mention of the same for their dev focused presentations. Each company has really laid everything out quite clearly in terms of the drivers behind their next gen console vision, and I don't get why gamers are ignoring the actual company that makes the console.

That being said I expect parity very soon.

And that is also part of why I find this whole thing strange. The new Xbox Game Core dev tools were designed to make Xbox development easier, the entirety of Series S | X and the Game Core dev tools were designed to make Xbox development more PC like, so that developers could easily port their PC version (which is the version that most developers make first) onto S and X, choose the PC resolution and graphical settings which make the most sense for each console, and then optimize to hit those settings with a good framerate at the desired resolution. With Series S and X being more PC like than ever before, optimizing for them should not be difficult, and yet both Series S and X are preforming below expectations on launch games. 

That tells me the answer for the poor performance is one of 3 things personally:

1. The late tools/dev kit rumors are true, and devs just didn't have time to used to Xbox Series ahead of launch. This theory makes the most sense to me and has been backed up by some indie devs I believe I read. These consoles were coming in hot during a pandemic afterall, and we've had rumors all year that MS was behind schedule during development. I mean just look at how many of their 1st and 3rd party launch window exclusives have been delayed out of the launch window, Halo, CrossFireX, 12 Minutes, The Medium, The Ascent, The Artful Escape, that reeks to me of dev kits and tools coming out late.

2. PS5, despite having on paper lower specs except for the SSD speed and pixel fill rate, is easier to develop for in spite of Microsoft's effort to make porting from PC to Series S | X easier. Possible I'd say, but not as likely as the delayed tools/devkits.

3. 3rd party devs are just being lazy and don't want to optimize for both S and X, and are just porting over some lower PC settings instead of optimizing to hit higher settings on each console. If it was just Ubisoft's launch games having issues, I'd say this was the culprit, as they are well known to be lazy optimizers, but Dirt 5, which MS had marketing on, is also behind, and PS5 also has an advantage in one of DMC 5's performance modes. I don't think this is the issue personally. 

Probably a mix of 2 of them tbh.

With xbox games you need to optimise for:

1) fat Xbox One
2) Xbox One S(lim)
3) Xbox One X
4) Xbox series S
5) xbox Series X
---6) xcloud? the streaming thingy?
---7) Windows Store PC?

while on PS side, its just PS4 + Pro & PS5 (3 devices).


Also:
Sony and mark cerny kept talking about ease of developement, and removeing bottlenecks.
it might not all just lay in the tools/dev kits, but the hardware choices and customisations taken when designing the 2 consoles.

You mentioned this in 2), and the "i dont think this is as likely", tbh I do.
I think the toolkit is getting more blame than it probably deserves (time will tell, if a year or two, down the line things still run worse on XSX.. that will be the proof in the pudden).

reguarding nr 3)
Its not a matter of devs being lazy.
You can rule that out.

If it happends once? maybe, but not when its a patern thats developed (6 games outta 7, favor PS5 (so far outta the compairsons we ve seen)).
1 dev can be lazy about porting to a system, but they cant all be.

Also 2 of these, where by studios with Xbox Marketing.
They wouldnt do a sloppy/lazy job, when their getting paid marketing rights to show off their new game (in its best possible light).
It doesnt make any sense to think so.

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 22 November 2020

And this is why we wait before making assumptions or calling Digital Foundry bias, people.

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 22 November 2020

Pemalite said:

Otherwise in pure compute scenarios the Xbox Series X not only has the brute-strength advantage but also some efficiency advantages such as Variable Rate Shading which gives it the edge for things like global illumination lighting and shading.

You are assuming, like DF did a while ago, that the PS5 doesn’t have Variable Rate Shading or their own similar solution, which could be worse, just as good, or even better than DX12U’s VRS.  It would be interesting if you could mention every feature the PS5 does and doesn’t support in comparison to the Series X. But I don’t think people should assume the PS5 doesn’t support certain features just because Sony isn’t openly bragging about them.

Last edited by Hynad - on 22 November 2020


JRPGfan said:
shikamaru317 said:

And that is also part of why I find this whole thing strange. The new Xbox Game Core dev tools were designed to make Xbox development easier, the entirety of Series S | X and the Game Core dev tools were designed to make Xbox development more PC like, so that developers could easily port their PC version (which is the version that most developers make first) onto S and X, choose the PC resolution and graphical settings which make the most sense for each console, and then optimize to hit those settings with a good framerate at the desired resolution. With Series S and X being more PC like than ever before, optimizing for them should not be difficult, and yet both Series S and X are preforming below expectations on launch games. 

That tells me the answer for the poor performance is one of 3 things personally:

1. The late tools/dev kit rumors are true, and devs just didn't have time to used to Xbox Series ahead of launch. This theory makes the most sense to me and has been backed up by some indie devs I believe I read. These consoles were coming in hot during a pandemic afterall, and we've had rumors all year that MS was behind schedule during development. I mean just look at how many of their 1st and 3rd party launch window exclusives have been delayed out of the launch window, Halo, CrossFireX, 12 Minutes, The Medium, The Ascent, The Artful Escape, that reeks to me of dev kits and tools coming out late.

2. PS5, despite having on paper lower specs except for the SSD speed and pixel fill rate, is easier to develop for in spite of Microsoft's effort to make porting from PC to Series S | X easier. Possible I'd say, but not as likely as the delayed tools/devkits.

3. 3rd party devs are just being lazy and don't want to optimize for both S and X, and are just porting over some lower PC settings instead of optimizing to hit higher settings on each console. If it was just Ubisoft's launch games having issues, I'd say this was the culprit, as they are well known to be lazy optimizers, but Dirt 5, which MS had marketing on, is also behind, and PS5 also has an advantage in one of DMC 5's performance modes. I don't think this is the issue personally. 

Probably a mix of 2 of them tbh.

With xbox games you need to optimise for:

1) fat Xbox One
2) Xbox One S(lim)
3) Xbox One X
4) Xbox series S
5) xbox Series X
---6) xcloud? the streaming thingy?
---7) Windows Store PC?

while on PS side, its just PS4 + Pro & PS5 (3 devices).


Also:
Sony and mark cerny kept talking about ease of developement, and removeing bottlenecks.
it might not all just lay in the tools/dev kits, but the hardware choices and customisations taken when designing the 2 consoles.

You mentioned this in 2), and the "i dont think this is as likely", tbh I do.
I think the toolkit is getting more blame than it probably deserves (time will tell, if a year or two, down the line things still run worse on XSX.. that will be the proof in the pudden).

reguarding nr 3)
Its not a matter of devs being lazy.
You can rule that out.

If it happends once? maybe, but not when its a patern thats developed (6 games outta 7, favor PS5 (so far outta the compairsons we ve seen)).
1 dev can be lazy about porting to a system, but they cant all be.

Also 2 of these, where by studios with Xbox Marketing.
They wouldnt do a sloppy/lazy job, when their getting paid marketing rights to show off their new game (in its best possible light).
It doesnt make any sense to think so.

Base Xbox One and Xbox One S are so close in specs that most 3rd party devs release the same build of their game on both, I've only seen a handful of games since XB1 S released that have separate base XB1 and XB1 S performance profiles, usually base Xbox One is running the same build of the game as S with a slightly lower framerate due to the lower clock speed. xCloud is not something that developers need to optimize for currently afaik, xCloud is currently just Xbox One S units running in a server farm, which will be replaced with Series X units sometime in 2021, so the XB1 S builds of games work automatically on xCloud as far as I know. Maybe some devs do additional optimization to reduce latency to help with the latency issues of cloud gaming, I'm not really sure.

So yeah, PS ecosystem has two less platforms to optimize for compared to Xbox ecosystem in most cases, that may factor into these launch game issues somewhat, but the purpose of Game Core was to make it easier to port and optimize between all of the different Xbox platforms, I just think devs haven't had enough time to get used to Game Core and the XDK yet. We'll see soon enough, can't wait to see what this upcoming Dirt 5 patch does. 

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 22 November 2020

Ryuu96 said:

And this is why we wait before making assumptions or calling Digital Foundry bias, people.

This look so much as a saving face comment.

It doesn't occur on photo modo because it is static, it doesn't occur in 60fps mode because it is a different mode. Sure they wil patch and improve (and we will need to see if it doesn't impact anywhere else), still doesn't really look like a bug. Bugs usually don't affect 100% users in a whole mode 100% the time. That is a choice (can be a poor one) or a grave mistake (that doesn't make sense no one in their QC, MS and etc wouldn't see even more because it seems it was exactly like that couple months ago on the preview).



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994