By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sony Discussion - TLOU2 is losing steam. Why?

Dgc1808 said:
Chrkeller said:

My two cents:

TLoU was a 10/10, amazing game.

TLoU 2 was a 7/10, good game. And since beating the game is required for an opinion, let it be known I did finish the game.

Really it is quite simple for me, pacing killed the game. Basically I spent 15 hours being invested in Ellie, building up her skills and weapons. The game essentially resets with the second character. Having to re-build skills and weapons, along with revisiting places...  the second half didn't feel right, it was just off for me.

It didn't help the character switch occurs at an apex plot point. Waiting 10 hours to see how that apex plays out wasn't good design. The game would have been better had the second character been scenario B like Resident Evil 2. Meaning finish out Ellie, than replay the game from a different perspective.

I think TLoU2 was also hurt by being copy/paste from the first. God of War reinvented itself. Zelda reinvented itself. TLoU2 is fundamentally the same game, which at the end of a generation hurts.  I was expecting more.   

I didn't take any issue with the characters. But I did find the story far too basic. Ellie is all about revenge, so is Abby. The storylines were redundant.  And two sides hating each other just isn't original.  

Overall Last 2 isn't even my favorite ps4 game this year, Ghost is better.  As far as GotG, it isn't even top 10 ps4 for me.  Bloodborne, Souls 3, Nier, GoW, Ghost, Spiderman, Horizon, Last Guardian, Uncharted 4, Monster Hunter World and a few others were all better games.  

But she isn't. Only the first time you play as her, up until she does the thing that made a lot of fans mad. The second time you play as her isn't about revenge at all. She was just out looking for Owen whom was gearing up to leave and rejoin the fireflies based on a rumor he heard. A long the way you get captured by Seraphites that happened to have captured Lev and Yara as well. You break free with those two and get tangled up in their story for a little while, but the story doesn't take a turn for vengeance until Abby gets back to base for medical supplies and finds Ellie's handiwork. This was near the end of the Abby arc as well.

Ellie sees Abby's handiwork, seeks her out for revenge.  Abby sees Ellie's handiwork and seeks her out for revenge.  They both lost father (and father figure).  Their stories mirror each other.  Which is fine.  The story was solid, but (for me) wasn't the deep "Citizen Kane" people made it out to be.  Which really doesn't matter, the pacing hurt the game far more than the story.

I also thought everything would have been better had it ended at the movie theater.  The extra bit at the end was beating a dead horse.    



Around the Network
Ka-pi96 said:
Azzanation said:
I don't know what else to tell you. Ill answer your post with quick and easy Wiki searches just to prove my point.
Answers to your 2nd/3rd paragraph
(Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One, possessed the highest known count in galactic history—over 20,000 midi-chlorians—surpassing the potential of all the Jedi including Grand Master Yoda.)
Answers to your 4th paragraph
(George Lucas himself has said that Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever.)
Times have changed, and the SW universe has definitely changed with its new owners. Regardless how well the new films are directed and how good the CGI is, the new trilogy has not done any justice to the original films and its story direction. George had Luke as the most powerful Jedi ever and Disney turned what was the most powerful Jedi to a coward, running away from his problems, a direct opposite to his character. Lets not get me started on all the plot holes with the new trilogy either.
Let me just say this, there is nothing wrong for those who like the new films, they aren't bad movies, i don't hate them, however those walking in thinking they are going to be proper continuations to the OG Trilogy will be highly disappointed. None of the old characters are in character in the new films, they are different. 

Midichlorian count doesn't make somebody the most powerful though. He had the highest count in history from the moment he was born. Was he as powerful as Yoda (or even some average Jedi Knight) at that time? Definitely not. Potential =/= ability.

Not to mention there's more to being a Jedi than the force. IIRC Mace Windu was known as the greatest lightsabre fighter of the era, yet Yoda was the strongest with the force. Who would win in a fight? Hard to say.

Plus I think it's worth reiterating that he was never even the master. It seems a bit ridiculous to call somebody the "greatest ever Sith lord" when they were only ever the apprentice.

As for George Lucas, he also thought Jar-Jar Binks was a good idea...

Plus, I wouldn't say Disney turnt him into a coward. I'd say he was already that based on eps 4-6.

Goku is far stronger than Kami and Kaioh, but still call both master and isn't a master himself. Kiryu is far stronger than all the masters he had in Yakuza but isn't a master himself. Mastership is about dominating one skill not being the strongest at it.

Just look at MMA or any other major fighting sports and you'll see that the champion isn't a master and sometimes isn't even that high in Dan.

So saying Vader was weaker than Palpatine because he isn't a Master and the other is, doesn't hold. Also from what I remember Vader was the one that vanished all Jedis from the Universe at his time.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

I still find impressive that so many people think they know more than the creator of something. Lucas saying Luke is the greatest Jedi ever or Vader the strongest Sith, how can that be wrong? Creator and team making and modeling Joel but streamers know better than them. I guess we should start complaining about Kratos becoming more humane and prone to accepting help from others and even trusting a little.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Chrkeller said:

My two cents:

TLoU was a 10/10, amazing game.

TLoU 2 was a 7/10, good game. And since beating the game is required for an opinion, let it be known I did finish the game.

Really it is quite simple for me, pacing killed the game. Basically I spent 15 hours being invested in Ellie, building up her skills and weapons. The game essentially resets with the second character. Having to re-build skills and weapons, along with revisiting places...  the second half didn't feel right, it was just off for me.

It didn't help the character switch occurs at an apex plot point. Waiting 10 hours to see how that apex plays out wasn't good design. The game would have been better had the second character been scenario B like Resident Evil 2. Meaning finish out Ellie, than replay the game from a different perspective.

I think TLoU2 was also hurt by being copy/paste from the first. God of War reinvented itself. Zelda reinvented itself. TLoU2 is fundamentally the same game, which at the end of a generation hurts.  I was expecting more.   

I didn't take any issue with the characters. But I did find the story far too basic. Ellie is all about revenge, so is Abby. The storylines were redundant.  And two sides hating each other just isn't original.  

Overall Last 2 isn't even my favorite ps4 game this year, Ghost is better.  As far as GotG, it isn't even top 10 ps4 for me.  Bloodborne, Souls 3, Nier, GoW, Ghost, Spiderman, Horizon, Last Guardian, Uncharted 4, Monster Hunter World and a few others were all better games.  

In the sense of scenario A and B TLOU2 would be exactly what you are defending on RE, the only difference being that you don't get a "you win" message and get tossed to the main menu.

You play as Ellie (scenario A), play as Abbie (scenario B) - and they connect and intermingle similar to RE2, and after you beat the two you get the epilogue (or true ending, just like RE2).



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Chrkeller said:
Dgc1808 said:

But she isn't. Only the first time you play as her, up until she does the thing that made a lot of fans mad. The second time you play as her isn't about revenge at all. She was just out looking for Owen whom was gearing up to leave and rejoin the fireflies based on a rumor he heard. A long the way you get captured by Seraphites that happened to have captured Lev and Yara as well. You break free with those two and get tangled up in their story for a little while, but the story doesn't take a turn for vengeance until Abby gets back to base for medical supplies and finds Ellie's handiwork. This was near the end of the Abby arc as well.

Ellie sees Abby's handiwork, seeks her out for revenge.  Abby sees Ellie's handiwork and seeks her out for revenge.  They both lost father (and father figure).  Their stories mirror each other.  Which is fine.  The story was solid, but (for me) wasn't the deep "Citizen Kane" people made it out to be.  Which really doesn't matter, the pacing hurt the game far more than the story.

I also thought everything would have been better had it ended at the movie theater.  The extra bit at the end was beating a dead horse.    

I agree with you there. 

SPOILER:
I wanted it to end at the farm. That scene to me seemed like the perfect conclusion. After killing the pregnant lady, Ellie finally seemed to realize that she had gone too far and was ready to go back to Jackson, and when she pleaded for Tommy's life she actually said to Abby "Now I know why you killed Joel, I understand."
Then we have the fact that Abby not only spared her life (again) but also spared Dina's. So yeah, I was not pleased at all when she decided to go back for revenge once again. I was like, "really?"



Around the Network

The only reason for the last third after the theatre was for Ellie to have a rematch at the same weight class I like the game but story is the weakest part tbh it's just not executed that well an example is when Ellie and co knock off two particular people they leave a map behind that leads back to their hide out like wtf, the game should have been in two scenarios with one ending at the farm the other at the theatre. My other main gripe is the focus on realism sometimes gets in the way of gameplay for example when switching weapons an animation plays that has to finish if you do an action that cancels it you don't switch weapons which happens more time than you'd like in combat because the ammo you can carry is so limited you have to switch weapons. The is also a reticule glitch that happens sometimes where a shot will just miss despite the reticule being bang on target and the enemy, I'm not sure what causes it as it's not only happened a fair amount of times to me but I've seen it happen on streams.

Other than that I'd give the game 8/10 main because of the game play and set pieces but mind you most of my playthrough is post grounded patch which improves replay value with the gameplay options you can unlock as it makes replaying the game more customizable which with Grounded mode improves the experience heavily.



Do we even have numbers to assert that the game is "losing steam"?

Unless Cyberpunk lives up to the hype created, TLOU Part II will be the best game of 2020. TLOU is a single player game that has very little to offer after the campaign is finished. The game is one of the most atmospheric and tense ever produced, a landmark for the survival horror genre, despite all the bad will created against ND choices in terms of plot.



DonFerrari said:
I still find impressive that so many people think they know more than the creator of something. Lucas saying Luke is the greatest Jedi ever or Vader the strongest Sith, how can that be wrong? Creator and team making and modeling Joel but streamers know better than them. I guess we should start complaining about Kratos becoming more humane and prone to accepting help from others and even trusting a little.

I find you supposition a little disingenuous. As writer it's your job to provide enough information to reader to support what you designed the character to be. If significant part of the audience balks at the characters actions, it can be a sign of poor writing.

If I design a character that is supposed to be a peerless warrior but every time he's in battle he gets the crap kicked out of him, I can't reasonably be angry at the audience for disagreeing that he's a peerless warrior. As a creator I have shown the audience nothing to indicate his prowess. So yes as a creator, what you say goes. However that doesn't absolve you from poor writing.

Side note: I am not saying it is easy. Writing is hard. Trying to step outside yourself to see your characters from an audience perspective is a difficult task.

Last edited by Darc Requiem - on 20 November 2020

Darc Requiem said:
DonFerrari said:
I still find impressive that so many people think they know more than the creator of something. Lucas saying Luke is the greatest Jedi ever or Vader the strongest Sith, how can that be wrong? Creator and team making and modeling Joel but streamers know better than them. I guess we should start complaining about Kratos becoming more humane and prone to accepting help from others and even trusting a little.

I find you supposition a little disingenuous. As writer it's your job to provide enough information to reader to support what you designed the character to be. If significant part of the audience balks at the characters actions, it can be a sign poor righting.

If design a character that is supposed to be a peerless warrior but every time he's in battle he gets the crap kicked out of him, I can't reasonable be angry at the audience for disagreeing that he's a peerless warrior. As a creator I have shown the audience nothing to indicate his prowess. So yes as a creator, what you say goes. How ever that doesn't absolve from poor writing.

Side note: I am not saying it is easy. Writing is hard. Trying to step outside yourself to see your characters from an audience perspective is a difficult task.

Can it be a sign of poor writing? Yes it can. But can also just mean people either don't understand, suppose they understand better or are just unsatisfied. Also define significant part of audience.

Which peerless warrior are we talking about? Just a supposition or are we discussing someone in particular? Because yes If I directly say in the material that a char is undefeated and overpowered it would be totally strange to see he struggling. But from several media you can see undefeated (or close to it) heroes that almost all fights are struggles, to the point that when the victory is easy you'll find it odd.

And going back to the first point, yes you can say it was poorly written, but to say it is out of character would still be wrong (well guess where things almost always occur out of character? IRL. You see so many times someone saying that they can't believe that person done that thing, that they know the person fully and the person would never do it, etc). To say unexpected, poorly explained, etc are more likely things (and sure sometimes even the little explanation is a writer decision to either let suspense or audience speculation).



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Srassy said:
DonFerrari said:
I still find impressive that so many people think they know more than the creator of something. Lucas saying Luke is the greatest Jedi ever or Vader the strongest Sith, how can that be wrong? Creator and team making and modeling Joel but streamers know better than them. I guess we should start complaining about Kratos becoming more humane and prone to accepting help from others and even trusting a little.

Neil Druckmann was co-director on the first Last of Us game.  Bruce Straley was the other one but didn't work on the second game.  There is the possibility with the massive tonal shifts that the parts of the characters that we liked were as a result of Straleys work which was misinterpreted or twisted by Neil Druckmann.  Neil did say that the story was inspired by a lynching he once saw and I feel that it impacted him so much that he wanted to tell the story he did even if the characters weren't a natural fit.  A lot of complaints were that the characters made decisions that didn't seem entirely natural to their established characters.

I acknowledge that this is purely conjecture but the creators have changed and there were three directors working on the second game and two of them didn't work on the first game so it's probably not surprising the characters felt different.

Also another interesting thing I read was that Tess from the first game was initially supposed be the antagonist and travel across the US to kill Joel but Straley rejected it as being too unlikely for someone to travel that far in a zombie wasteland to kill someone

Sure, as I said in some comment before, it is totally valid to not like a writer decision, a change or something that you feel is out of character. The problem comes from saying that it is poor writing or wrong based on that. I totally expected Joel to die an ugly death but was honored that he looked in the eye and dared they finish it fast without any claim of mercy.

About change of directors and one not being there yes that certainly could have impacted how the story unfolded (do we know how many writers were also changed?), but some pretend that Neil tarnished another person creation while ignoring that TLOU1 was already his creation (and I'm from the team that he have been to focused on identity policies)



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."