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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Future of Physical Media in consoles - end of disks?

DPsx7 said:
Pemalite said:

The concept is exactly the same as a record.
There are "pits" in the plastic layer just like a record.

The difference is how those "pits" are sent back to the hardware... A record uses a pin that is dragged over the pits... A CD/DVD/Blu-Ray uses a laser that bounces of a reflective metal layer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc_manufacturing

And I quote: "In addition, CD burners write data sequentially, while a CD pressing plant forms the entire disk in one physical stamping operation, similar to record pressing."

Feel free to look at the manufacturing process on Youtube for a more visualized reference point.


Enh, mostly the same. Still 'burned' with a laser just done all at once unlike traditional burning at home. Whatever, it's all good.

The master disc is burned with a laser, the successive copies are "stamped" in a plastic mould.

This is different to consumer recordable compact disks which use a laser to alter a chemical layer.

https://www.lifewire.com/commercial-vs-recorded-dvds-1846590



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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DonFerrari said:
WolfpackN64 said:
Depends. I think the fact that most games are fully installed on the console has more to do with game devs not wanting to deal with partially installed games. A Blu-Ray disc can sustain read speeds up to 72MB/s (and unlike SD cards, this read speed is constant, no caching BS that drops your performance off a cliff after a few Gigabytes). With Blu-Ray discs being able to hold up to 128GB's a piece, being quite durable and relatively cheap to manufacture, I see them sticking around.
It would be a much more efficient use of space if a physical game from a Blu-Ray could be partially installed to minimize boot and loading times, with the SSD pulling data off the disc as a cache to quickly stream data when the game requires it.

The largest problem I see is that we've kind of plateaued in SSD's getting cheaper and/or larger in capacity. The larger capacity and cheap"er" SSD's are QLC, which means they're quite slow. PLC technology is on the horizon, which means if we just wait long enough, SSD's are going to be nearly as slow as reading from a Blu-Ray disc.
Furthermore, Blu-Ray Discs might still get some development as sony uses them as a base for their Optical Disc Archive storage (Blu-Rays are much more durable then DVD's and CD's ever were).

PS5 SSD speed is 4.5Gb and over 9Gb when counting compression.

So the BD transfering 72MB won't really cover that need.

My post was not concerning the raw performance alone, but when you need that performance. No game is going to need to stream the maximum amount of data via the PS5's SSD at all times (unless it's horribly optimised).



Pemalite said:
DPsx7 said:

They aren't records. How do you 'stamp' a disc?

The concept is exactly the same as a record.
There are "pits" in the plastic layer just like a record.

The difference is how those "pits" are sent back to the hardware... A record uses a pin that is dragged over the pits... A CD/DVD/Blu-Ray uses a laser that bounces of a reflective metal layer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc_manufacturing

And I quote: "In addition, CD burners write data sequentially, while a CD pressing plant forms the entire disk in one physical stamping operation, similar to record pressing."

Feel free to look at the manufacturing process on Youtube for a more visualized reference point.

We could oversimplify this and say that a CD/DVD/BD is stamped just as you would a plastic injection on a plant. You do a lot of work to have the mold (or the master in this case) but then you can do million of copies for penny on the cost.

DPsx7 said:
DonFerrari said:

Not gonna happen outside of perhaps Nintendo. Most 9th gen games will be over 30Gb. And sure I prefer to have physical as well and I'm fine with cheap BD.

Why? I'm looking through what I have installed. The only big ones are the games that keep adding over time (as you'd expect). DLC comes after the fact so we just need to look at the base game. Granted I have a big backlog so I've yet to try RDR2, FF7R, or whatever. A 64gb card is only slightly less than what a disc holds I think.

Shadow1980 said:

What? They did? Dammit! Why didn't anyone tell me?

Yeah couple months ago. I wasn't expecting it but when it showed up in their newsletter I was on that so fast... The original was a bitch, never finished when I was younger but completed it eventually. Honestly between them, Special Reserve Games, Signature Edition Games, Super Rare Games, Iam8bit, or even Playasia with their UK releases a surprising amount of digital games eventually come to disc.

Pemalite said:

The concept is exactly the same as a record.
There are "pits" in the plastic layer just like a record.

The difference is how those "pits" are sent back to the hardware... A record uses a pin that is dragged over the pits... A CD/DVD/Blu-Ray uses a laser that bounces of a reflective metal layer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc_manufacturing

And I quote: "In addition, CD burners write data sequentially, while a CD pressing plant forms the entire disk in one physical stamping operation, similar to record pressing."

Feel free to look at the manufacturing process on Youtube for a more visualized reference point.

Enh, mostly the same. Still 'burned' with a laser just done all at once unlike traditional burning at home. Whatever, it's all good.

It sure depends on the game you'll play. AC for example are all over 50Gb if I'm not wrong, CoD the same, most Sony 1st party also.

On the size itself a regular BD is 25 Gb (so a 32Gb stick would cover and still have space for DLCs that perhaps you could download and install on it), a dual layer BD is 50Gb (and gen 8 that was the limit the console accepted, so a 64Gb stick would cover, but it is plenty more expensive than a 16Gb stick, while dual layer BD additional cost is minimal) with some games coming with 2 dual layer BDs such as you listed FF7R and TLO2 so it would be 100Gb and a 128Gb stick is very costly compared to 2 dual layer BDs.

Next gen Sony and MS have a UHD driver so I guess it will be able to read even more layers so possibly a 100Gb game could be in a single disc and would be the standard.

WolfpackN64 said:
DonFerrari said:

PS5 SSD speed is 4.5Gb and over 9Gb when counting compression.

So the BD transfering 72MB won't really cover that need.

My post was not concerning the raw performance alone, but when you need that performance. No game is going to need to stream the maximum amount of data via the PS5's SSD at all times (unless it's horribly optimised).

The games for PS5 will be made to use the SSD speed, so you wouldn't be able to use a stick with 10% that speed and only need to install small parts. If you read or watch Sony presentation you'll see that.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

DPsx7 said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

I think in ten years physical games will be all but extinct on Xbox and Playstation. You'll have to special order them from sites like LRG and the like. That is if the Xbox Format X2-59-Alpha-Part-II-Series-ABC+D, and PS6 even have optical disk readers. Nintendo should still be able to hold onto cartridges for another 10 to 15 years longer than Sony/Microsoft. So by 2040-2045 even Nintendo will have given up on physical media.

I'm not too worried about it though, because it really looks to me like my hobby is changing for the worse. More and more games are just these multiplayer, MTX infested, Gatcha, forever updated monstrosities. You know, the kind of games that won't stay out of the news. Stuff like Fallout76, MK11, Genshin Impact, Fortnite, Fall Guys, etc. Some of these games are fun, but they all would have been infinitely better as standalone $60 releases, with some light DLC.

Anyway, I think gaming as a whole will move into a space where I no longer enjoy it. I'll stick around for the Marios, and Outer Worlds, and God of Wars, and the like. But I think as time goes on, more and more publishers will insist on injecting unfun grind into longrunning series for the sole purpose of pushing MTX in the game. Just look at Wolfenstein Youngblood for a perfect example. Or MK11 and its horrible tower of time grindfest. A game isn't worth collecting if 25% of the game is locked behind an additional paywall. A game isn't worth collecting if it forces you to choose between insane levels of grind and paying extra money to skip said grind. 

TL/DR: Microtransactions will make collecting games pointless long before physical media dies.

People have been predicting the death of gaming for longer. It's not gonna happen, nor will a switch away from physical media without some major adjustments.

Enh, the thing with FN, Rocket, Fall Guys is they're all free. At no point are we forced to pay a cent so I'm ok with 'em. They aren't going to replace my regular games but are good diversions as a break. MTX will only last as long as they find a few to keep buying them. If any game is too invasive, choose something else.

The thing I really don't like about a lot of these F2P games is that in order to get the full experience you need to pay way more than the standard $60 price tag. Even way more than the $60 price tag + $25 Expansion pass. League of Legends is the perfect example of this. I might have 1/5th of the champions in League if I'm lucky. I pretty much made that game my life for 3 years, and I spent about $300 on it to boot. That sort of time/money investment will buy you 5 full priced single player games, and get you the Platinum Trophy on 10 to 20 games.

I think a lot of these F2P games really need to slow down with the MTX. If you wind up spending 5 times more than that game would have cost then F2P is not a good model economically anymore. The real kicker here is that as more and more full priced games add in MTX, collecting or even buying games becomes pointless. The value proposition isn't there anymore. Heck, even as a completely free (No MTX, No nothing. COMPLETELY FREE) offering many games just don't have a good value proposition, because your time alone has value. If a game is full of tedious things that artificially lengthen the game, and don't respect the player's time then the game isn't worth bothering with.

And like I said before. This sort of "Add grind to the game, to sell MTX" model is going to kill my hobby long before physical media dies out.

Last edited by Cerebralbore101 - on 19 October 2020

The sentence below is false. 
The sentence above is true. 

 

TheBraveGallade said:
AsGryffynn said:
I'm thinking we might see USB type C proprietary pen drives as the new storage solution.

maybe, but it'll still need  cart like port to be elegent, and the only solution currently fast enough on a USB-C form factor is thunderbolt, which is firmly on intel and apple's side.

There is a fucking reason why the XBSX/S uses a proprietary slot for it.

As for the disc speed argument, while BD goes up to 72Mb/s, that is not NEARLY enough for THIS gen, let alone the upcoming one, i mean it wasn't enough for certain wii U games to function at full capacity.

all in all though I think at least console game devs are going to put in effort to compress games at least a bit again starting this gen, and especially so if they have to move to carts in the next one, so at least games would probably still fit on the smallest common size of 128GB. going lower for the base size might negativly influence price... unless you are nintendo and manage to compress what is effectivly a 8th gen AAA console game enough to fit within a high end first gen iphone...

I was going to use the notion you install those since Type C is fast enough for rapid installation and deletion, though this does make one think what would happen on the inside of memory modules given they can't take that many read/write cycles. 

OTOH, Thunderbolt is pretty much as Intel as x64: AMD does have mobo packages with Thunderbolt support, albeit very few due to the technology being unusual: more than Thunderbolt becoming the standard, it's more likely we will see the return of "Truly Express" PCIE enabled SSDs that you do slot in to the console like a USB... minus the proprietary rubbish MS is pushing (for the record, this kind of stuff almost always ends with several third party versions available. Also, mind the fact drives managing high speed data transfer are known for being expensive, so the MemCard they offer is fairly par the course). 



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Cerebralbore101 said:
DPsx7 said:

People have been predicting the death of gaming for longer. It's not gonna happen, nor will a switch away from physical media without some major adjustments.

Enh, the thing with FN, Rocket, Fall Guys is they're all free. At no point are we forced to pay a cent so I'm ok with 'em. They aren't going to replace my regular games but are good diversions as a break. MTX will only last as long as they find a few to keep buying them. If any game is too invasive, choose something else.

The thing I really don't like about a lot of these F2P games is that in order to get the full experience you need to pay way more than the standard $60 price tag. Even way more than the $60 price tag + $25 Expansion pass. League of Legends is the perfect example of this. I might have 1/5th of the champions in League if I'm lucky. I pretty much made that game my life for 3 years, and I spent about $300 on it to boot. That sort of time/money investment will buy you 5 full priced single player games, and get you the Platinum Trophy on 10 to 20 games.

I think a lot of these F2P games really need to slow down with the MTX. If you wind up spending 5 times more than that game would have cost then F2P is not a good model economically anymore. The real kicker here is that as more and more full priced games add in MTX, collecting or even buying games becomes pointless. The value proposition isn't there anymore. Heck, even as a completely free (No MTX, No nothing. COMPLETELY FREE) offering many games just don't have a good value proposition, because your time alone has value. If a game is full of tedious things that artificially lengthen the game, and don't respect the player's time then the game isn't worth bothering with.

And like I said before. This sort of "Add grind to the game, to sell MTX" model is going to kill my hobby long before physical media dies out.

The grinding and generic is what I hate most about open world games, it is a bunch of padding to increase lenght that I can't stand it. Even more because it have you going back and forth like and idiot on fetch quests.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Leynos said:
Once it goes I'm done with the modern gaming period. I like to own things and play them years after services shut down.

I bought my first digital games in 2006 (a few PC games on Steam + Telltale Store, PS3 games on PSN and Xbox 360 games on XBL marketplace)... they all still work. The 360 games even run on my Xbox One X, most of them enhanced. So I can't complain.

Usually only multiplayer online modes gets shut down... both for the retail and digital versions at the same time.



DonFerrari said:

It sure depends on the game you'll play. AC for example are all over 50Gb if I'm not wrong, CoD the same, most Sony 1st party also.

On the size itself a regular BD is 25 Gb (so a 32Gb stick would cover and still have space for DLCs that perhaps you could download and install on it), a dual layer BD is 50Gb (and gen 8 that was the limit the console accepted, so a 64Gb stick would cover, but it is plenty more expensive than a 16Gb stick, while dual layer BD additional cost is minimal) with some games coming with 2 dual layer BDs such as you listed FF7R and TLO2 so it would be 100Gb and a 128Gb stick is very costly compared to 2 dual layer BDs.

Next gen Sony and MS have a UHD driver so I guess it will be able to read even more layers so possibly a 100Gb game could be in a single disc and would be the standard.

The games for PS5 will be made to use the SSD speed, so you wouldn't be able to use a stick with 10% that speed and only need to install small parts. If you read or watch Sony presentation you'll see that.

BDXL goes all the way up to 128GB, both the Xbox One S, One X, Series S, Series X, Playstation 5 support that.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

I need to make one thing clear. Whenever these topics come up in forums as a general rule. I express my support for physical and a bunch of people who only support digital quote me and try to argue. I cannot be budged from my view on physical being better. Ownership is better. Preservation is better. A lot of stuff has been delisted I have physical versions of. That now only exist in physical form. I have so many games never ported to modern services or systems.

"but emulation" it's a shallow experience. It's getting a new game in the mail or finding some treasure out in the wild in a store or yard sale or flea market. That is a thrill. Not knowing anything about an old retro game you bought. It could be amazing or bad but the exciting thing is not knowing. Hearing the click of a cartridge popping in or opening the lid to pop the CD in and pressing power. Reading the manual. It's a build-up to playing the game. The anticipation leading up. Steam or whatever is soulless to me. A page that tells you everything about the game. People reviewed it. You click to download...yay. Boring. While I'm not the biggest on Nintendo franchises. Switch is the best system I have used in a long time. It brings almost every great quality about 90s console gaming on a modern system. It's the system you dreamed of in the 90s. Full portable console gaming. Nomad had the idea but wasn't quite there. I'm playing new games like Astral Chain that remind me why I game. The same excitement of all those new ideas and IPs we got but the tens of dozens each year. Switch bought that back. Also a cart system. While PS4 still has the physical aspect of popping a disc in and opening a new game. Physical games is not just about the format. The format is part of it. There is a build up of anticipation that can be days or weeks or hours. Then you get to appreiciate the artistry of the game.

All I get in digital games is. Cool game. Play for 5 minutes. Download another. Backlog of steam games most people don't play or finish.

 



Bite my shiny metal cockpit!

The external HDD/SSDs or proprietary expansion card that holds your digital downloads will be your new physical media.



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