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Forums - Sony - Sony Explains Why 1st Party Games Won't Debut Day 1 on PS Now

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Intrinsic said:
sales2099 said:

Sorry I like playing more games then you for hundreds less every year (shrugs). 

That's all well and good. But this is the quality of quantity argument all over again.

Some dev costs of games you know:

  1. GTA5 $137M
  2. GOW $44M
  3. HZD $47M
  4. Shadow of the Tomb Raider $75M

I really could keep going. This information is all out there for all that want to see it. And all those prices are before you tack on the marketing costs. Which in some cases actually costs more than what it costs to make the darn things.Eg.GTA5 with marketing costs over $260M. Yu can tack on another $30 - $40million at least for every AAA game marketing cost to the list above.

The simple fact is, it does cost around $80M - $120Mon average to make AAA games these days. And those posts will go up a bit next-gen as they always do.

Why is this important? This is exactly why you will not see those kinda games on Gamepass on day 1. You may see them there eventually when the game is considered to be at the end of its term, but not in the first 12 months.

And this is a simple math problem, MS simply cannot afford the cost of admission to have these kind games be on their service on launch day. Take COD for instance. This is a game that across all platforms sells at least 15M copies in its first 6 months on the market. That's $900M of revenue in just under months. Not including extras like limited editions and all MTX. For MS to secure games like those, they would have to pay out well over $500M. And that just for that year, and just that one game. Then spread this out to say 4 or 5 other such games in a year. Now granted not all of them is COD, so they may get away with paying "only" like $350M for others. We are talking billions a year just to secure the titles that are coming to the platform that year.

And why do they pay that you ask? Well just take you for instance, if you know you c get COD, Cyberpunk...etc on day one on GP, would you still go out and buy them for $70? Would anyone? Hell, if MS announces tomorrow they have games like cyberpunk the next GTA, AC, COD...etc on their service I would cancer my PS5 pre-order in a heartbeat.

It's just not sustainable. Not for anyone that knows they can move the games direct to consumers at full price. Ever wondered why FIFA (or at least the latest one) isn't on GP?

There is no quality of quantity argument. Plenty critically acclaimed games on the service. Only someone not familiar with it can even suggest an argument like that. 

Im aware many 3rd party games come on the service months to even years after they are new. Doesn’t mean their sales potential has been tapped out. Doesn’t mean they lost their quality. I can’t play every AAA multiplat every year so more often then not I get many when it comes on the service. 

The big draw will be when their AAA first party ramps up, for those like you who buy their games day 1. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

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EpicRandy said:

That's far from the truth

programmers:
https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/us-game-developer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,2_IN1_KO3,17.htm  50,923$ average
https://www.gameindustrycareerguide.com/video-game-programmer-salary/  Only senior devs are 120k+
https://www.salary.com/research/salary/posting/video-game-programmer-salary  65k Median

artist (which constitue most task force)
https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Video_Game_Artist/Salary 57,264 average 71K Max
https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/gaming-artist-salary-SRCH_KO0,13.htm?countryRedirect=true 58k average
https://www.gameindustrycareerguide.com/video-game-artist-salary/ from 35k to 90k for senior

Tester :
https://www.gameindustrycareerguide.com/video-game-tester-salary/ "start around USD $18,000 and top out around $55,000"

And that's all for US, game developed Salary in Canada and many other countries are way lower than this.

Average salaries at eidos Montreal : https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Employer=Eidos_Incorporated/Salary  CAD 73K or  USD 55k
Average salaries at Ubisoft Montreal : https://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Employer=Ubisoft_Entertainment_Inc./Salary CAD 67K or USD 50K

I think your 130k figure is more accurate when it already account for other expense related to the position (employer's payroll obligation, insurance, equipment, software license, electricity etc...) 

I know marketing cost are substantial often overtaking development cost (sometime even many times over) but I was speaking dev cost only and so was Jim Ryan in the citation from the op.

"Have any idea how much an ad spot in the Superbowl cost? $5.6M... for 30 seconds." That's not the cost of creating the ads, that's is the fees for a 30s time frame for diffusing the ads during the superbowl. It does not relate to game development cost in any way shape or form. 

if we look a things differently, most AAA does not sell enough copies to justify a 100m+ budget let alone when factroring in martketing cost.
But I guess it all boils down to personal opinion on what you consider AAA. What budget do you think is enough to be considerd AAA. Is 30M enough? (I certainly think so in most case). Is 40M enough (I think I'll have a hard time telling devs there games is not AAA because the budget was only 40M)? Is 50M enough?

Most AAA studios these days need to sell at least 2.5M copies of their game for it to be considered ok. Not even a success, but ok.

Conina said:

Ok.. thanks, thats super helpful of you.

Now were those games put on steam on the same day and date with them appearing on game pass? Were those games on the PC version of gamepass from day one when the PC version of gamepass started?

Cause I find that statistic very very very strange. Was it supported n every region that steam is supported in?



sales2099 said:

There is no quality of quantity argument. Plenty critically acclaimed games on the service. Only someone not familiar with it can even suggest an argument like that. 

Im aware many 3rd party games come on the service months to even years after they are new. Doesn’t mean their sales potential has been tapped out. Doesn’t mean they lost their quality. I can’t play every AAA multiplat every year so more often then not I get many when it comes on the service. 

The big draw will be when their AAA first party ramps up, for those like you who buy their games day 1. 

I actually don't buy games Day 1. Well unless its Tekken. I more or less buy them month 4 - 6. Usually, after they have got their first or second price drop or deal. 



Intrinsic said:
Azzanation said:

I am going to write an article with a video attached to explain why.

What companies like MS and Sony spend on securing games is completely up to them, that does not concern the customer, however raising game prices when games are making more money than ever before is the insane part.

But that's what this is all about. You can't just say its not the consumer's concern. The platform holders certainly do not make choices without considering what the consumer wants. What you are saying shows a gross lack of understanding of how these things work.

You highlighted (or dismissed) third party game securing and prices of games. I will address these.

  1. How much they pay or their ability to secure third party games is the single most important thing to a service like GP thriving. There is just no way around this. The costs associated with vs money left on the table this is what makes such a service sustainable or not, and is what dictates the very nature of the games you even see on such service. This is, not something you can just gloss over as its the single biggest advantage or disadvantage the service has.     

    The cost to acquire AAA third party games to launch on day 1 would be astronomical. For the simple reason that doing so will literally kill any potential sales of that game everywhere else or on any other platform. Who in their right mind would pay $50 -$70 for a game that they can play pretty much for free if they just have a $10 subscription to a service? $70 vs $10. How is this not obvious to you?

  2. The way you are looking at prices going up is wrong. The simple fact of the matter is that cost of making games is always going up. The last price hike was exactly 2 generations ago (PS2/XB > PS360 gen) when game prices went up from $50 to $60. But how long it has been isn't even all that is important. What's important is that the minimum cost of making a AA or AAA game has gone up. Back with the PS1 and even the PS2, all your game had to do was sell 1M or 2M copies and you were good. You are a success. That's it. Going "platinum" was a big deal then. But now? if your game doesn't sell at least 1.5M you wouldn't even break even in most cases. Now, small studios that may only get like 500k to 1M sales for their game would seize to exist if they aren't getting more from each game sold.

    I hope that gives you a better understanding of this.

You are failing to understand the point. This video explains everything on why game prices don't need to increase.



Intrinsic said:
sales2099 said:

There is no quality of quantity argument. Plenty critically acclaimed games on the service. Only someone not familiar with it can even suggest an argument like that. 

Im aware many 3rd party games come on the service months to even years after they are new. Doesn’t mean their sales potential has been tapped out. Doesn’t mean they lost their quality. I can’t play every AAA multiplat every year so more often then not I get many when it comes on the service. 

The big draw will be when their AAA first party ramps up, for those like you who buy their games day 1. 

I actually don't buy games Day 1. Well unless its Tekken. I more or less buy them month 4 - 6. Usually, after they have got their first or second price drop or deal. 

Not sure your point now. You said how expensive it would be to put day 1 3rd party games on Game Pass. No argument there. I said the appeal is for those who wait, who don’t buy day 1. People such as yourself. My point is that even if many games come later to GP they still very much have a audience to tap into. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

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One thing I would also point to everyone saying devs are making more money so the rise in costs doesn`t matter is that we have been seeing many and many devs closing. Because sure some games have sold a lot better to cover the increase in cost but many other didn`t had the sales to cover the cost.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

padib said:
Intrinsic said:

That's all well and good. But this is the quality of quantity argument all over again.

Some dev costs of games you know:

  1. GTA5 $137M
  2. GOW $44M
  3. HZD $47M
  4. Shadow of the Tomb Raider $75M

I really could keep going. This information is all out there for all that want to see it. And all those prices are before you tack on the marketing costs. Which in some cases actually costs more than what it costs to make the darn things.Eg.GTA5 with marketing costs over $260M. Yu can tack on another $30 - $40million at least for every AAA game marketing cost to the list above.

The simple fact is, it does cost around $80M - $120Mon average to make AAA games these days. And those posts will go up a bit next-gen as they always do.

Why is this important? This is exactly why you will not see those kinda games on Gamepass on day 1. You may see them there eventually when the game is considered to be at the end of its term, but not in the first 12 months.

And this is a simple math problem, MS simply cannot afford the cost of admission to have these kind games be on their service on launch day. Take COD for instance. This is a game that across all platforms sells at least 15M copies in its first 6 months on the market. That's $900M of revenue in just under months. Not including extras like limited editions and all MTX. For MS to secure games like those, they would have to pay out well over $500M. And that just for that year, and just that one game. Then spread this out to say 4 or 5 other such games in a year. Now granted not all of them is COD, so they may get away with paying "only" like $350M for others. We are talking billions a year just to secure the titles that are coming to the platform that year.

And why do they pay that you ask? Well just take you for instance, if you know you c get COD, Cyberpunk...etc on day one on GP, would you still go out and buy them for $70? Would anyone? Hell, if MS announces tomorrow they have games like cyberpunk the next GTA, AC, COD...etc on their service I would cancer my PS5 pre-order in a heartbeat.

It's just not sustainable. Not for anyone that knows they can move the games direct to consumers at full price. Ever wondered why FIFA (or at least the latest one) isn't on GP?

It's really easy math to see how the model works. With 50M xboxes sold on average per gen, and gamepass now accessing windows audiences as well as android, the base can be up to 100M subscribers per month. Now multiply that by 10$. That's 1B dollars per month coming in. With that kind of money, they can finance altogether 10, top, AAA high-budget games all by themselves if they needed to moneyhat.

There's no danger here, plus Sony sell games outside of PS Now in a more agressive way, so 3rd parties are saved.

If Microsoft takes as much as Apple or Steam it is 30 percent and otherwise between 10 and 20 percent of the amount you speak off and even that aint pure profit as they have to constantly invest to keep up their own services and salaries,marketing,taxes.(could easily take up close to half or even over half off the revenue they get out of the subscription)

We can assume that it will not be wise to invest as wildly in AAA games as you said.

Last edited by Immersiveunreality - on 20 September 2020

DonFerrari said:
One thing I would also point to everyone saying devs are making more money so the rise in costs doesn`t matter is that we have been seeing many and many devs closing. Because sure some games have sold a lot better to cover the increase in cost but many other didn`t had the sales to cover the cost.

The reason you see many devs closing because they cannot sell their games at 60 bones so why do you think 10 dollars more is going to help them sell any better or increase their margin.  Actually it will be the opposite, gamers will become even more selective in their purchase and thus their will be lower sells and only the true AAA games will sell and mid tier and lower will get hit hard.  



gamingsoul said:
Machiavellian said:

Actually its Netflix original content that has kept me paying for the service.  Who cares if there are some embarrasing movies within the crop of great shows, documentaries, mini series etc.  The fact that you have so much content for your sub constantly is the selling point.  Oh well, I guess to each their own.  I mean you are dissing the service for some reason that I do not understand but that is not the point you made earlier.  The fact is, the model works and its very profitable.  Not understanding the model and why it works is a problem more on your ability to understand the market then the model itself. 

My point is, that model is only sustainable with lowbudget production(which can end up creating good products every once in a while)m but it is not sustainable with high budget blockbuster productions, I can live with the fact that we could have both models, but people pushing for companies like Sony and maybe eventually Nintendo to put their big games there will just kill the high budget aaa gaming market, and we will end with low budget productions just like Netflix.

people always tell me, but you don’t understand the market...well the Sony ceo just said what I have always said about gaming subscriptions, and where’s is nintendo why are they so silent about gaming services when it’s such a great deal?

Actually you are incorrect.  Let me ask you a question.  How much do you believe it cost to develop the Office Suite of software from MS.  I can definitely tell you it cost way over 5 of the most expensive game titles combined to this date.  Why do you believe that MS has 365 which is a software service that allows you to get the office suite for a sub price.  The thing is gamers have no clue about the business model and how it makes money.  Since I work and develop software within this field, I understand that when you get to a certain level of subs for your subscription, all development cost is payed for in advance and it basically pays for itself.  In order to maintain the service you must have big budget high profile games and those games pay for mid tier and smaller games.  You are thinking way to small and in the wrong way.  You see games like GTA5, GOW and all these big budget games costing a lot of money but those games cost that much money over the amount of years in development.  Sub services is always bringing in money monthly and yearly basis over that cost.  So if GTA 5 cost 100 mill over 4 years to make in development and this also include a lot of other MISC cost, during that 4 year development, the gamepass subs will be bringing in over a billion dollars every year once it reaches a certain level. 

Do you understand how this works because the business I work with the cost of developing our main software cost way over a video game but we sell it in a service sub as well as at retail.  Why do you believe a lot of the high profile big name software suites have gone to a sub base service when those software cost way more than a 60 dollar game.  The reason the business model works because money is always coming in each month and every year.  Its much easier to actually take risk and fun big budget games when its already paid for then make the game and hope it sells enough copies to make its return. I could go deeper but hopfully you are getting the picture a little better.  MS isn't experimenting with gamepass, its a proven successful model and they are 100% committed to bringing content and not low budget content but high quality big AAA because the service will pay for those projects in advance.



Considering microsoft don't have much exclusives, it's an easy money grab for them. The subscription will cover the cost of the games and more. Sony on te other hand release more AAA games, so it's foolish to go that model.