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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Tomshardware - Xbox Series X hot chips 2020 Deep Dive.

JRPGfan said:
kirby007 said:
499 book it

Xbox One X, launched at 500$.
Now every part of the Xbox Series X is more expensive, and you expect the same price?
If it happends, its because a loss is taken on each unit sale, thats in the order of probably 50-100$.

I think this is more likely to play out:

Xbox Series X: 549-599$   (50$ loss or breakeven)
Playstation 5 (disc) : 499$  (break even)
Playstation 5 (discless) : 399$ (this will be sold at huge a loss (~70$), digital returns to recoupe some of it)
Xbox Series Y: 299-349$  (breakeven, not quite sure how much cheaper you can get it, by makeing a 4TF model)

*edit: Hell maybe even the discless version is only 50$ cheaper than the PS5. So 449$ instead of 499$.

What makes you believe the Xbox will be more expensive than the Play Station (100$ is a lot...)?

If anything it is probably the opposite. Other than the APU, the rest seems to be more expensive on the Play Station side (box, SSD, Controller...). So maybe we can talk about a tie or very close tie in terms of production cost. But I have high doubts the Xbox will cost more to produce or at least certainly not 100$ difference...  

I expect both console to be at the same price (okay, maybe the second one to announce its price will be 49$ less cause they are both waiting to undercut).



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DonFerrari said:
shikamaru317 said:

Xbox One X was almost certainly selling at a small profit at $500 on launch. It released a year after PS4 Pro and still cost $100 more than PS4 Pro did at launch. Also, it got price drops really quickly, MS wouldn't have been able to afford to do price drops that quickly if XB1 X was being sold at a loss on release or even at cost. So, while Xbox Series X almost certainly has a higher bill of materials than XB1 X did, it's also heavily rumored that MS is planning on selling it at a loss.

While it is true that PS5's chipset will be less expensive than Series X's chipset since it has alot less CU's, you have to remember that it has increased costs coming in other areas: 

  1. PS5's SSD is going to be substantially more expensive that Series X's SSD. It is custom made and about twice as fast, faster even then comparably sized PC SSD's that are currently selling for like $250 at retail.
  2. PS5's case is likely slightly more expensive than Series X's case. It is larger, meaning more plastics and metal will be needed to make it.
  3. PS5 almost certainly has multiple fans to help keep it cool, since they are relying so heavily on overclocking their GPU, and each extra fan above Series X's single fan will add to the cost.
  4. PS5's controller is chock full of tech that the Series X controller lacks, motors for the impulse triggers, advanced haptic feedback, touchpad, microphone, speaker, internal battery. I'd be willing to bet that the PS5 controller costs at least $15 more to make than the Series X controllers do, and since each system will come bundled with a controller, that adds to the consoles overall bill of materials.

I wouldn't be surprised if the bill of materials for Series X and PS5 are very close to one another. What will matter is if one or both of them is willing to sell at a loss, unlike this gen where both console were sold at cost at launch ($381 BOM for PS4 and $471 BOM for XB1 back in 2013). Rumor is MS is willing to sell at a loss on Series X, which is also why they reportedly delayed their August Xbox announcements into September, they clearly want Sony to announce pricing first so that they can undercut them or at least price match them. Sony meanwhile will likely be willing to sell the discless PS5 at a loss since digital software sales have higher profit margins for them, but I'm not so sure that they will be willing to sell the disc drive PS5 at a loss as well. We could very well see discless PS5 and XSX coming in at the same price, with disc drive PS5 costing $50 more.

Best estimates on BOM so far is PS5 about 450 and XSX 480 if I'm not wrong.

The PS5 was an estimate reported by Forbes, and for the disk version. The XSX one was just something a Twitter insider guessed. He admitted not knowing anything about cost. He also gave a range of $480-$540, or somewhere around there. 

While it being from Forbes doesn't make it 100% true, I believe it's probably more accurate than the XSX guess. I really think we are getting prices like this:

XSS: $299

PS5 DE: $399

PS5: $449-$499

XSX: $549-$599

MS knows damn well they weren't beating the PS5's price point, since their APU is much bigger and they aren't interested in taking a huge lose on HW while they are focusing on streaming/GamePass. It's why we even have a Lockhart launching. And why all the talk of selling less than PS and Nintendo.



EpicRandy said:
DonFerrari said:

Yep, both want to announce the highest possible price that is cheaper than the competitor so both are delaying the announcement.

At this point I think it is more a battle over not being more expensive rather than a battle to be cheaper.

Microsoft probably does not want to take a loss and Sony probably want to cash in on it's brand recognition.

Funnily enough, if they old back price announcement longer still, they might both end up pricing their console at $499 over fear that the competition would be cheaper while both would actualy have wanted a $599 price tag.

That is essentialy the same, they want to charge as much as possible but not being more expensive than the other is the same as being cheaper =p

shikamaru317 said:
DonFerrari said:

Best estimates on BOM so far is PS5 about 450 and XSX 480 if I'm not wrong.

Haven't seen that $480 BOM leak for Series X. I remember a $450 BOM leak for PS5 back in February I think, though there was a later report from that same site that said that PS5's BOM may have been increased since then due to part shortages caused by Covid shutdowns. Around the same time as the $450 PS5 BOM leak, Zhuge said he heard that the XSX BOM was somewhere in the $460-510 range, so a $480 BOM is definitely possible. I definitely don't think either MS or Sony will be willing to sell above $500. So maybe we will see Series X and disc drive PS5 both at $500 with discless at $450. Or maybe MS will be willing to see Series X at a larger loss to price match the discless PS5 instead, which they might have to do with their main system seller delayed.

Daniel Ahmad estimative was for both, PS5 450 and Series X 480 or close to that.

Imaginedvl said:
JRPGfan said:

Xbox One X, launched at 500$.
Now every part of the Xbox Series X is more expensive, and you expect the same price?
If it happends, its because a loss is taken on each unit sale, thats in the order of probably 50-100$.

I think this is more likely to play out:

Xbox Series X: 549-599$   (50$ loss or breakeven)
Playstation 5 (disc) : 499$  (break even)
Playstation 5 (discless) : 399$ (this will be sold at huge a loss (~70$), digital returns to recoupe some of it)
Xbox Series Y: 299-349$  (breakeven, not quite sure how much cheaper you can get it, by makeing a 4TF model)

*edit: Hell maybe even the discless version is only 50$ cheaper than the PS5. So 449$ instead of 499$.

What makes you believe the Xbox will be more expensive than the Play Station (100$ is a lot...)?

If anything it is probably the opposite. Other than the APU, the rest seems to be more expensive on the Play Station side (box, SSD, Controller...). So maybe we can talk about a tie or very close tie in terms of production cost. But I have high doubts the Xbox will cost more to produce or at least certainly not 100$ difference...  

I expect both console to be at the same price (okay, maybe the second one to announce its price will be 49$ less cause they are both waiting to undercut).

The CU is quite bigger. Xbox have likely lower order number so less discounts. If Sony made a system that is essentially weaker but also more expensive that would be a big fuckup. Also Daniel Ahmad estimates.

thismeintiel said:
DonFerrari said:

Best estimates on BOM so far is PS5 about 450 and XSX 480 if I'm not wrong.

The PS5 was an estimate reported by Forbes, and for the disk version. The XSX one was just something a Twitter insider guessed. He admitted not knowing anything about cost. He also gave a range of $480-$540, or somewhere around there. 

While it being from Forbes doesn't make it 100% true, I believe it's probably more accurate than the XSX guess. I really think we are getting prices like this:

XSS: $299

PS5 DE: $399

PS5: $449-$499

XSX: $549-$599

MS knows damn well they weren't beating the PS5's price point, since their APU is much bigger and they aren't interested in taking a huge lose on HW while they are focusing on streaming/GamePass. It's why we even have a Lockhart launching. And why all the talk of selling less than PS and Nintendo.

Nope it was daniel ahmad that made estimate to both with Series X about 30 more expensive to make than PS5. Yes I think Sony will eat more cost on discless and MS on the Series S.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

JRPGfan said:


 ML (which is 100% confirmed now)

I have been speaking about Direct ML for months on this forum. It was always "confirmed".

JRPGfan said:

Series X has a a part that handles audio too:


This basically just rehashes and goes a little deeper into what we already knew.
Next gens audio features are freaking exciting.

JRPGfan said:

Its either 549$ or 599$.

Something tells me the PS5 chip is cheaper.
Its supposedly only 36 CU (with no redundency's) and the Xbox Series X is 56 CU's (with 4 disabled).
Thats gonna amount of a large differnce in the size of the APU inside both.

If playstation launched at 499$ while the Xbox Series X is 599$, that could account for why Phil Spencer resently came out and said "Selling as many consoles as Sony or Nintendo is not our approach". This could be a case of, if you want 20% more performance than the Playstation 5, you need to pay for it.

The Playstation 5 chips cost probably isn't *that* much cheaper, when you are chasing high clocks, you need chips that can scale high or dump excessive amounts of voltage, either way, it will impact yields, meaning higher cost per chip.

Over the long term however Sony will definitely have the long-term cost advantages in SoC chip manufacturing... But Microsoft probably makes up for that with a cheaper SSD.

hinch said:

Yeah Aussies and Canadians usually pay more. A bit like us in UK, there is usually quite a big difference in what we pay vs US. Aka getting ripped by taxes and import fees.

I mean thats usually how it goes. Lower end is cheaper and high end more expensive to make up for it. But hopefully that's not the case and both with be around the $500-$550 USD mark.. for all our sakes lol.

As long as the price discrepancy isn't so excessive that it would be cheaper to purchase a plane ticket, fly to the USA, buy the product and fly back to Australia... And still save money. *Cough*Photoshop*cough*



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

DonFerrari said:
EpicRandy said:

At this point I think it is more a battle over not being more expensive rather than a battle to be cheaper.

Microsoft probably does not want to take a loss and Sony probably want to cash in on it's brand recognition.

Funnily enough, if they old back price announcement longer still, they might both end up pricing their console at $499 over fear that the competition would be cheaper while both would actualy have wanted a $599 price tag.

That is essentialy the same, they want to charge as much as possible but not being more expensive than the other is the same as being cheaper =p

Well it's the same reason for holding up on price but not the same result. In one scenario one console would undercut the other by $50-$100, the second would see the 2 consoles at the exact same price no matter who goes first.





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Pretty sure Sony wouldn't be ramping up production if they plan on selling it for $600. I see Series X launching at $599 as they are marketing it as a premium console. ps5 Will be $399 for the DE and $499 for the disk version.



EpicRandy said:
DonFerrari said:

That is essentialy the same, they want to charge as much as possible but not being more expensive than the other is the same as being cheaper =p

Well it's the same reason for holding up on price but not the same result. In one scenario one console would undercut the other by $50-$100, the second would see the 2 consoles at the exact same price no matter who goes first.

Perhaps, but the need to hold for so long to me screams wanting to be cheaper. Because if it was both just not wanting to be more expensive they would have release it for a reasonable price that cover cost and at most small loss, so both 499.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

goopy20 said:
Pretty sure Sony wouldn't be ramping up production if they plan on selling it for $600. I see Series X launching at $599 as they are marketing it as a premium console. ps5 Will be $399 for the DE and $499 for the disk version.

Maybe but if this were the case there would be no reason for Sony to hold up on the price. They know XSX cannot be priced lower than $499 so why hold up. They know they have a big brand power advantage so at the same price they would have no problem whatsoever.

There's only 2 possible reason for the hold up on sony part:

1) They fear Microsoft could undercut them (which should not be possible with a $499 PS5).

2) They want to cash in on brand recognition (which is only possible at $599 and if they are not undercut by the XSX at $499)





Since the show is stuck behind a paywall here's what happened in a written article (live blogpost)

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15994/hot-chips-2020-live-blog-microsoft-xbox-series-x-system-architecture-600pm-pt



Pemalite said:

As long as the price discrepancy isn't so excessive that it would be cheaper to purchase a plane ticket, fly to the USA, buy the product and fly back to Australia... And still save money. *Cough*Photoshop*cough*

Yup, that could be viable option if your flight ticket prices are cheap. Maybe not for us in the UK lol. The pricing a little worry for me since the dropping of the British pound isn't going anytime soon and if there is a no deal Brexit with EU; that could dramatically affect prices overall. I might buy now, to save upset later.