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Forums - Politics Discussion - So, are we not gonna talk about this?

dark_gh0st_b0y on 03 June 2020
JWeinCom said:
dark_gh0st_b0y said:

Any comment on this chart? Since when is it right to draw conclusions based on a single incident?

I think it's the media and the way they describe the tragic way it happened that cause people to react rather than the fact that an African American has been killed by a brainless policeman. Many African Americans have died already in the Antifa terrorist/vandalist riots while trying to protect their shops but no one seems to even mention it.

According to the most recent census data in the US, white people outnumber black people by about 6 to 1.  So, for this chart to be in proportion to that, there would have to be over 4000 white people killed by police.  There's a huge disparity, we should examine why that is, and if it is do to bias in policing, then that needs to be fixed.  This is kind of basic statistics.

mZuzek said:

This chart is like the news that came out yesterday about Brazil being the country with the 2nd most people cured from COVID-19.

ArchangelMadzz said:

Conclusions you can draw is that black people make up 12.6% of the population. White makes up 72.4% of the population. Yet the black number isn't even half the size of shootings.

This doesn't include deaths in police custody or during arrests. For example George Floyd wouldn't be counted as he wasn't shot.



Thanks for replying people. I did some more research and found these figures. Looks like black people doing at least 6 times as many crimes, which makes up for the ~ 6:1 population ratio. Official FBI stats say that 49% of murders have been committed by African Americans in 2015.

Therefore the above chart still holds? Not sure if non-shooting deaths would change the numbers much.

It would make sense that the high criminality rates from African Americans must be the main source of racism, and police brutality to some extend.

However, there is no explanation on why white deaths by US police shooting is almost double as much, while people are campaigning for African American deaths, and at the same time Antifa riots are killing both and destroying their properties.



don't mind my username, that was more than 10 years ago, I'm a different person now, amazing how people change ^_^

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SvennoJ on 03 June 2020
Vinther1991 said:
Strange to read people being more angry with a handful of people looting shops than with police officers attacking innocent protesters and shooting reporters.

When authorities abusing power bothers you less than some riots, you don't really care for democracy. You are probably even against it.

In a sick twisted way, they are serving the public by breaking up peaceful demonstrations. I don't want to defend their methods, which are absolutely horrible, purely escalating the situation no matter how you look at it. Yet the bottom line is, we are in the middle of the worst pandemic we have faced in recent history. There are about a thousand covid19 deaths daily in the USA, over 20K new cases daily which is well over 200K new infections daily.

These peaceful gatherings still end up killing people.

I'm not saying don't protest, yet why hasn't anyone thought of smarter ways to protest. Block roads with your cars in large group, honk your horns to draw attention. Drive in slow groups on the highways etc. I guess no one wants to endanger their own property or be identified by their license plate... (Yet they'll bring their kids to a protest and endanger them, people...)

At least people have woken up now (yet for how long) and see how unprofessional the ones that are supposed to keep order are. Yes they are just humans like everyone else. It's the policies behind the mandates and lack of training and psychological testing which is the problem. De-escalation always seems to be on the back burner in the USA, shock and awe is the name of the game. Respond with overwhelming force which is what leads to all the problems and shocking images.

What happened to undercover cops walking among peaceful demonstrations to arrest the troublemakers as soon as they try to turn a peaceful protest into violent encounters. A wall of tear gas and flash bang grenades is not the answer. Of course it has gotten so far in the USA, being identified as an undercover cop in the middle of a demonstration against cops... Hopeless.



Vinther1991 on 03 June 2020
Nautilus said:
Vinther1991 said:
Strange to read people being more angry with a handful of people looting shops than with police officers attacking innocent protesters and shooting reporters.

When authorities abusing power bothers you less than some riots, you don't really care for democracy. You are probably even against it.

David Dorn, a retired black cop was murdered by these so called ''protestors of black rights''.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/03/us/david-dorn-st-louis-police-shot-trnd/index.html

Plus there are alot of other people killed because of the protests.

Yeah, I'm against all kinds of racism, but anyone who participates in this shit that is happening right now or defends that '' it's ok to destroy people livelihoods or murder people in the name of THE GREATER JUSTICE'' are a bunch of retards too.

Can you verify the murderers were protesting for black rights, rather than just taking advantage of the chaotic situation?

There are millions of people protesting in the street.

The police has also murdered people during these protests, among others a BBQ restaurant owner, but that is apparently of lesser concern to you?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/01/david-mcatee-kentucky-police-shooting-chief-fired



kirby007 on 03 June 2020
Hiku said:
Nautilus said:

I'll repeat what I said to MZuzek, since I believe that captures the essence of the discussion and what I want to say to you:

I don't think anyone here disagrees with you. If anything, I agree with most of what you say. Racism exists, and it is mostly directed at people that are "diferent". Or were considered "different" 20 or 30 years ago, by westerns: Black, asian people and so on. And yeah, all these "coincidences" you talk about, they are not coincidences. Presidents are majority white and male because of that( though honestly, I don't have any problem with that and I don't thnink anyone should, simply because any job should be occupied by the most competent person, and not by any other reason. If that person is a black woman so be it. We should look at their skills, and their skills alone. But that's a discussion for another day). Differences in salaries were because of that(even if nowadays I don't think they really exist because of that anymore, in most countries anyways) and yeah, some of the police brutality towards some groups exist because of that. I don't disagree with you.

But I disagree with the method that is being taken here. A bad action dosen't justify another bad action, as you *seem* to have implied ("But the wrong people on the other side, who are also a minority, are murderers. So by comparing both sides here, you're saying a murderer is just as bad as a vanda"), especially given the culprit is seemingly going to pay for it's crimes. I think it was Malcom X that said:

“You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”

And that should be true for both sides. I'm not taking the protestors side, because what they are doing is wrong.They are ruining people's lives, no matter how justifiable their anger is. At the same time, I'm not taking the other side because what that cop did was wrong, and he should and will be punished for that.

But I also think that, people need to start taking the problem, the root problem, seriously, we will never get rid of it. You said that black people were slaves once. Yes they were. But white people were also turned into slaves before that. Right up until the end of the Roman Empire. What does that say to you? That all of this, all of this hatred for the other group, for the difference, is a cycle. If you don't treat the problem at it's core, that cycle will continue, only taking different forms. We are already seeing it. Cristians that were the "dominant group" are now being bullied. Gays were once accepted in the Ancient Rome, then were persecuted duringthe Middle Ages, and are nmow again accepted as normal. White people are now being attacked, by these same protestors that defend black people right, just by being white and being in the wrong place in the wrong time. If we don't treat this at it's core, what will happen in the next 20, 30 years? Some other group will be bullied upon and then society will rally to support it and may fix it. But then, given the laser focused effort into this one group, 50 or 60 years later another group will be bullied and be made fun of. And so on, and so on. Like you said, this repeats time and time again in history.

That's why I'm against saying " Black Lives Matter" and I'm actually in favor of "All Lives Matter". You may say that I'm being used to make fun of the movement, and to some extend you are right. But by the same definition, you are ALSO being used by these damn motherfuckers pillaging and destroying people properties that use the banner of being in favor of black lives to do those awful things. At the end of the day, the only thing I can do is stand for what I believe in, and hope that is good enough. In truth, that's all most people can do.

You're addressing a lot of things I didn't talk about. Like looters.
I don't want to equate the looting with the reason for the protests, because they are different, and the protests started before anyone looted.
Also it's more difficult for looting to occur now, but the police brutality continues every day against peaceful protesters. The reason it's important to focus on police brutality should be obvious. There's a clear answer to the looting. They violate the law with their selfish actions, so they should be punished accordingly.

However they were not entrusted with our safety. They didn't take an oath to protect and serve.
So when police get away with crimes, and they help each other get away with it, we're facing a much more complicated problem.

How do we get justice for all the people brutalized, maimed, killed etc when police cover up their name and badge numbers, remove body cams, cover up face or wear riot gear to avoid any form of identification?

This is the main issue we should be focusing on right now. However, there is a problem with that, which leads me into your comment about 'All Lives Matter'.

Over the past few days I've seen more videos of police brutality or otherwise illegal actions against peaceful protesters, or just people reporting the news, standing on their own porch, or in their house even, than I can count. It's dozens and dozens every hour on my news feed.

But when I look at the timeline some conservatives, how is it possible that they retweet a ton of stories about this, but not one single word about police brutality?
It seems like it should be unavoidable.

One big reason is the "All Lives Matter" tag. By avoiding the Black Lives Matter tag, and using a different tag, they effectively filter out any unwanted stories they don't want to see, or show their followers, and separate and/or disrupt the newsflow.
So even though police brutality should be by far the most concerning topic here, for some people it may as well not exist.

Of course, the BLM tag is probably not highlighting much looting, but it is still a subject that's near impossible to avoid because it's the given reason for police and now military deployment. And you inevitably see videos of protesters stopping the looting and vandalizing.


Either way, you don't have to support the Black Lives Matter movement. But you can avoid it without undermining the message by countering with "All Lives Matter", and suggesting people are saying white lives are less valuable.

And two things about the Roman empire.
Roman fathers were given the right to sell their children as slaves. They enslaved their own people. So a Roman person today doesn't carry the stigma of slavery. It's hard for anyone to tell whether they would have been a slave in the first place. But black people can't avoid it due to the color of their skin being a giveaway. And unfortunately too many people (one is one too many) in the US still think the wrong side won during the civil war.

i wouldn't wear ID either during riots tbh



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

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JWeinCom on 03 June 2020
dark_gh0st_b0y said:
JWeinCom said:

According to the most recent census data in the US, white people outnumber black people by about 6 to 1.  So, for this chart to be in proportion to that, there would have to be over 4000 white people killed by police.  There's a huge disparity, we should examine why that is, and if it is do to bias in policing, then that needs to be fixed.  This is kind of basic statistics.

mZuzek said:

This chart is like the news that came out yesterday about Brazil being the country with the 2nd most people cured from COVID-19.

ArchangelMadzz said:

Conclusions you can draw is that black people make up 12.6% of the population. White makes up 72.4% of the population. Yet the black number isn't even half the size of shootings.

This doesn't include deaths in police custody or during arrests. For example George Floyd wouldn't be counted as he wasn't shot.



Thanks for replying people. I did some more research and found these figures. Looks like black people doing at least 6 times as many crimes, which makes up for the ~ 6:1 population ratio. Official FBI stats say that 49% of murders have been committed by African Americans in 2015. Therefore the above chart still holds. 

It would make sense that the high criminality rates from African Americans must be the main source of racism, and police brutality to some extend.

However, there is no explanation on why white deaths by US police is almost double as much, while people are campaigning for African American deaths, and at the same time Antifa riots are killing both and destroying their properties.

... I believe in another thread you claimed to be scientific minded... Yet you're going about this in a very unscientific method.

None of the charts you posted actually show that black people are committing crimes at a rate 6 times higher than whites.  What it shows is that they are incarcerated about 6 times as often.  This COULD mean that they are simply committing more crimes. It could mean that black people are more likely to be arrested, and police look at them more closely (stop and frisk).   It could also mean that they are incarcerated more often for the same or similar crimes (see the discrepancy in punishments vs crack vs cocaine).  It could also mean that law enforcement is heavier in black neighborhoods, meaning that black people committing minor crimes are more likely to be caught than a white person committing the same crime in a white neighborhood.  It could also mean that white people typically have access to better legal assistance and are less likely to be found guilty.  Custody also presumably included people who are awaiting trial, so it could be that part of the discrepancy is due to white people being better able to afford bail.

You've also somehow concluded that racism is based on criminality, and somehow didn't consider it could be the other way around.

You are going from the first part of the scientific method (observation) and skipping right to the last part (conclusion).  You're skipping the whole middle part where you hypothesize an explanation for that observation, and test to see if that hypothesis is correct.  You went straight from "there are more black people in state custody" to "black people commit more crimes and that's why there is racism and police brutality".  That's a really wild leap in logic that, perhaps not surprisingly, sees you coming to the same conclusion you had before looking up any of this data.  

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 03 June 2020

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Immersiveunreality on 03 June 2020
Vinther1991 said:

Strange to read people being more angry with a handful of people looting shops than with police officers attacking innocent protestors and shooting reporters.

When authorities abusing power bothers you less than some riots, you don't really care for democracy. You are probably even against it.

In this thread here there are none more angry with the people looting shops than with what the police does,when you have people feeling entitled about what violent acts can be discussed then you get more focus on that kind of discussion.

Bolded: It is so easy and ignorant at the same time to say such things targetted at people in this thread,who is that meant for? 



Nautilus on 03 June 2020
Hiku said:
Nautilus said:

I'll repeat what I said to MZuzek, since I believe that captures the essence of the discussion and what I want to say to you:

I don't think anyone here disagrees with you. If anything, I agree with most of what you say. Racism exists, and it is mostly directed at people that are "diferent". Or were considered "different" 20 or 30 years ago, by westerns: Black, asian people and so on. And yeah, all these "coincidences" you talk about, they are not coincidences. Presidents are majority white and male because of that( though honestly, I don't have any problem with that and I don't thnink anyone should, simply because any job should be occupied by the most competent person, and not by any other reason. If that person is a black woman so be it. We should look at their skills, and their skills alone. But that's a discussion for another day). Differences in salaries were because of that(even if nowadays I don't think they really exist because of that anymore, in most countries anyways) and yeah, some of the police brutality towards some groups exist because of that. I don't disagree with you.

But I disagree with the method that is being taken here. A bad action dosen't justify another bad action, as you *seem* to have implied ("But the wrong people on the other side, who are also a minority, are murderers. So by comparing both sides here, you're saying a murderer is just as bad as a vanda"), especially given the culprit is seemingly going to pay for it's crimes. I think it was Malcom X that said:

“You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”

And that should be true for both sides. I'm not taking the protestors side, because what they are doing is wrong.They are ruining people's lives, no matter how justifiable their anger is. At the same time, I'm not taking the other side because what that cop did was wrong, and he should and will be punished for that.

But I also think that, people need to start taking the problem, the root problem, seriously, we will never get rid of it. You said that black people were slaves once. Yes they were. But white people were also turned into slaves before that. Right up until the end of the Roman Empire. What does that say to you? That all of this, all of this hatred for the other group, for the difference, is a cycle. If you don't treat the problem at it's core, that cycle will continue, only taking different forms. We are already seeing it. Cristians that were the "dominant group" are now being bullied. Gays were once accepted in the Ancient Rome, then were persecuted duringthe Middle Ages, and are nmow again accepted as normal. White people are now being attacked, by these same protestors that defend black people right, just by being white and being in the wrong place in the wrong time. If we don't treat this at it's core, what will happen in the next 20, 30 years? Some other group will be bullied upon and then society will rally to support it and may fix it. But then, given the laser focused effort into this one group, 50 or 60 years later another group will be bullied and be made fun of. And so on, and so on. Like you said, this repeats time and time again in history.

That's why I'm against saying " Black Lives Matter" and I'm actually in favor of "All Lives Matter". You may say that I'm being used to make fun of the movement, and to some extend you are right. But by the same definition, you are ALSO being used by these damn motherfuckers pillaging and destroying people properties that use the banner of being in favor of black lives to do those awful things. At the end of the day, the only thing I can do is stand for what I believe in, and hope that is good enough. In truth, that's all most people can do.

You're addressing a lot of things I didn't talk about. Like looters.
I don't want to equate the looting with the reason for the protests, because they are different, and the protests started before anyone looted.
Even if some looters sympathize with the cause, they are looting for personal gain. Protesters are trying to help other people.

Also it's more difficult for looting to occur now, but the police brutality continues every day against peaceful protesters. The reason it's important to focus on police brutality should be obvious. There's a clear answer to the looting. They violate the law with their selfish actions, so they should be punished accordingly.

However they were not entrusted with our safety. They didn't take an oath to protect and serve.
So when police get away with crimes, and they help each other get away with it, we're facing a much more complicated problem.

How do we get justice for all the people brutalized, maimed, killed etc when police cover up their name and badge numbers, remove body cams, cover up face or wear riot gear to avoid any form of identification?

This is the main issue we should be focusing on right now. However, there is a problem with that, which leads me into your comment about 'All Lives Matter'.

Over the past few days I've seen more videos of police brutality or otherwise illegal actions against peaceful protesters, or just people reporting the news, standing on their own porch, or in their house even, than I can count. It's dozens and dozens every hour on my news feed.

But when I look at the timeline of some conservatives, how is it possible that they retweet a ton of stories about this, but not one single word about police brutality?
It seems like it should be unavoidable.

One big reason is the "All Lives Matter" tag. By avoiding the Black Lives Matter tag, and using a different tag, they effectively filter out any unwanted stories they don't want to see, or show their followers, and separate and/or disrupt the newsflow.
So even though police brutality should be by far the most concerning topic here, for some people it may as well not exist.

Of course, the BLM tag is probably not highlighting much looting, but it is still a subject that's near impossible to avoid because it's the given reason for police and now military deployment. And you inevitably see videos of protesters stopping the looting and vandalizing.


Either way, you don't have to support the Black Lives Matter movement. But you can avoid it without undermining the message by countering with "All Lives Matter", and suggesting people are saying white lives are less valuable.

And two things about the Roman empire.
Roman fathers were given the right to sell their children as slaves. They enslaved their own people. So a Roman person today doesn't carry the stigma of slavery. It's hard for anyone to tell whether they would have been a slave in the first place. But black people can't avoid it due to the color of their skin being a giveaway. And unfortunately too many people (one is one too many) in the US still think the wrong side won during the civil war.

I don't understand you... a crime is a crime. I'm adressing the situation at hand, and the looting and killings done in the name of black rights has everything to do with the situation. These looters and murderers were part of these protests and many of them did that under that banner. I know idiots exists everywhere, but the same can be applied to both sides if you are going to use that argument. Human stupidity is linked with the brutality done both by the protestors and the police.I could understand you if that were an isolated ocassion, but it's not. In fact, every time such protests happens, looting and killing usually follows suit.

What I mean is, a problem is a problem. If something is wrong, truly wrong, it has to be discussed and never be excused because it was done either " for a greater good" or because the other problem is slightly worse. You have to remember we are dealing with human lives here. For a black person, this topic might be more important to him, but for the person who just got his bussiness completely ruined and he was already swimming in debts, you may as well have setenced him to death.

What actually leaves me scratching my head when I discuss these things with you guys is that I actually agree with many of the things you are saying. Racism, police brutality and so on. They all need to be dealt with. But you guys seem to be so laser focused on that particular point that you end up getting answers in this very thread that "whoever is defending the people who got their store looted or killed because of those looters are "insensible"". Really?

You just said that you see every hour in your news feed of policeman abusing their power striking against peaceful protesters, and I agree that is wrong. Buit I also see the same amount of news of protesters actively attacking the police without being provoked and the police just defending themselves/maintaining the order. And as you said, some protesters are stopping the looters and murderers, just as not every cop is corrupt or an incopetent that can't do their job without killing someone.

Both problems are problems, and both should get the attention it needs. It's not one over the other.It's not a sport competition. Wrong is wrong. I'm not going to give a slap on the wrist of someone robbing or killing another person just because there is another topic going on at the moment which some people feel that I should regard that as more important. All Lives Matter, not just Black ones. So all that is wrong going on right now will get the attention it deserves.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

Nautilus on 03 June 2020
Vinther1991 said:
Nautilus said:

David Dorn, a retired black cop was murdered by these so called ''protestors of black rights''.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/03/us/david-dorn-st-louis-police-shot-trnd/index.html

Plus there are alot of other people killed because of the protests.

Yeah, I'm against all kinds of racism, but anyone who participates in this shit that is happening right now or defends that '' it's ok to destroy people livelihoods or murder people in the name of THE GREATER JUSTICE'' are a bunch of retards too.

Can you verify the murderers were protesting for black rights, rather than just taking advantage of the chaotic situation?

There are millions of people protesting in the street.

The police has also murdered people during these protests, among others a BBQ restaurant owner, but that is apparently of lesser concern to you?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/01/david-mcatee-kentucky-police-shooting-chief-fired

Can you prove that every black person killed by a cop is because of racism, or just plain incapability from that cop?

Or rather: Do you really think it's a coincidence that everytime there is protests like this one, looting and killing always follow suit? At the very least ANTIFA are a bunch of facists and extreme leftists that don't know anything but to cause destruction in their protests. At least everytime I saw them involved, violence was also there. Or can you verify that's not true most of the time they show up?

I care about both subjects. That's why I say All Lives Matter. That's why I want to discuss both the racism AND this wave of hate and violance caused by the protests, unlike some of the users that want to talk about racism but sweep all the other problem under the rug(violance, looting, the hate the protesters have against anyone that dosen't think exactly the same and so on)



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

Nautilus on 03 June 2020
Immersiveunreality said:
Vinther1991 said:

Strange to read people being more angry with a handful of people looting shops than with police officers attacking innocent protestors and shooting reporters.

When authorities abusing power bothers you less than some riots, you don't really care for democracy. You are probably even against it.

In this thread here there are none more angry with the people looting shops than with what the police does,when you have people feeling entitled about what violent acts can be discussed then you get more focus on that kind of discussion.

Bolded: It is so easy and ignorant at the same time to say such things targetted at people in this thread,who is that meant for? 

Me, most likely.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

Immersiveunreality on 03 June 2020
Nautilus said:
Vinther1991 said:

Can you verify the murderers were protesting for black rights, rather than just taking advantage of the chaotic situation?

There are millions of people protesting in the street.

The police has also murdered people during these protests, among others a BBQ restaurant owner, but that is apparently of lesser concern to you?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/01/david-mcatee-kentucky-police-shooting-chief-fired

Can you prove that every black person killed by a cop is because of racism, or just plain incapability from that cop?

Or rather: Do you really think it's a coincidence that everytime there is protests like this one, looting and killing always follow suit? At the very least ANTIFA are a bunch of facists and extreme leftists that don't know anything but to cause destruction in their protests. At least everytime I saw them involved, violence was also there. Or can you verify that's not true most of the time they show up?

I care about both subjects. That's why I say All Lives Matter. That's why I want to discuss both the racism AND this wave of hate and violance caused by the protests, unlike some of the users that want to talk about racism but sweep all the other problem under the rug(violance, looting, the hate the protesters have against anyone that dosen't think exactly the same and so on)

It's like we are only allowed to think about one thing,some people do not get that thinking about other problems does not equally divide the importance of those cases in our minds and it has only gotten this much focus in threads because of some individuals feeling entitled enough to think they're the judge on what kind of violence should be the problem.