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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Playstation Event on June 4, "Playstation 5 official game reveal" , EDIT Official Sony confirmed it will be June 4

shikamaru317 said:
DonFerrari said:

You also do know that not all AAA is the same size or budget and also it is attached to expected revenue. So saying R* is slow to release games because the only AAA game they released this gen was RDR2 would be quite unfair. Sure SE isn't that profilic when compared to past gens but I wouldn't say they releasing 1 title per team on gen 9 is something crazy. Even 2 titles would be feasible depending on the size and if they share same engine.

Don’t even get me started on Rockstar. Their output this gen has been truly abysmal, they make Square’s AAA output look great by comparison. 7 year gen and all we got from R* is a GTA 5 port and RDR2, even though they have 2,000+ devs across 8 studios. GTA Online's success is mostly to blame there though, the fact that it rakes in money lead them to put a lot of their devs to work on new GTA online content, with the rest working on RDR2. Sadly I don’t look for Rockstar’s output next gen to improve. The main focus for them will be on getting GTA 6 out and then supporting it’s online mode heavily, while continuing to neglect their other IP’s like Bully, Midnight Club, LA Noire, and Max Payne. As a big fan of Bully and LA Noire, it saddens me greatly.

I agree that we should get at least 1 AAA per JP team from Square next gen, possibly even 3 from Nomura’s division (FF7R part 2 & 3 and KH4). Rather or not the other 4 divisions and Luminous Productions can pull off more than 1 AAA this gen remains to be seen. I hope the other teams can pull off more than 1, especially divisions 2 & 3 and Luminous, because I love Nier and FF (not a big DQ or Mana fan personally).

Didn't know the studio count of R* but yes to have all those dormant to just put additional content on GTAV doesn't please me even if I don't care much for their IPs.

I would like a Warrior remake though, I have no idea why but I didn't like Bully when I played it on PS2. LA Noire never tried, don't remember a thing about Max Payne and didn't play much Midgnight Club for arcade racing I was always more on NFS but my love is on sim so GT got most of my time.

But if you looked at the credits for RDR2 I think it had over 1000 people named.

EDIT - actually 3000 https://www.polygon.com/2018/10/23/18013928/red-dead-redemption-2-rockstar-games-public-letter



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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shikamaru317 said:
DonFerrari said:

Didn't know the studio count of R* but yes to have all those dormant to just put additional content on GTAV doesn't please me even if I don't care much for their IPs.

I would like a Warrior remake though, I have no idea why but I didn't like Bully when I played it on PS2. LA Noire never tried, don't remember a thing about Max Payne and didn't play much Midgnight Club for arcade racing I was always more on NFS but my love is on sim so GT got most of my time.

But if you looked at the credits for RDR2 I think it had over 1000 people named.

EDIT - actually 3000 https://www.polygon.com/2018/10/23/18013928/red-dead-redemption-2-rockstar-games-public-letter

Alot of those are localization teams though. They also did a lot of contract work on RDR2, I think that 1600 actual Rockstar devs worked on the game at one point in time or another, but  I don’t think they ever said how many devs were on the main team that worked on the game for all 6 years of development. 

I personally think that Rockstar made a mistake making RDR2 the first true AAAA game. The scale is just too big, 6 years and 1600 devs, plus contract devs as well. It all feels unnecessarily large to me. RDR1 was made by 800 devs over 4 years by comparison, and is a better game in my personal opinion. I would much rather see R* go back to making AAA games rather than stay AAAA next gen. Say 800 devs and 4 years on future games in the two biggest IP, GTA and Red Dead. 300-500 devs and 3 years on the smaller IP like LA Noire, Bully, Midnight Club, and Max Payne. That would be ideal imo. But sadly it won’t happen.

I didn't play RDR1, but really liked RDR2 although wasn't my favourite and even with all the atention to detail I found games like GoW much more complete.

And sure teams of 300 dev is already enough to put about 1 AAA game every 3 to 5 years, so Rockstar could certainly improve their output, perhaps their problem is criativity and risk accepting?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

5 days left



This picture surfaced last year, here for black and white



Sony is literally in the king position, where E3 would beg them to be there. PS5 reveal will easily break the internet.



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shikamaru317 said:
DonFerrari said:

You are making a very unfair comparison when you try to put copy and paste yearly releases to buff numbers. and have you compared the size of each team? Or you just want to shoot down SE?

You are right that yearly stuff like EA sports and Forza being on the list is a bit unfair. The rest I listed are not copy-paste though, not even CoD, contrary to what some believe about the series (every CoD game but 1 this gen has had an original campaign, mostly original maps, and mostly original guns, very little in CoD has gotten copy-pasted this gen, most of the games have taken place in different time periods which prevented copy-pasting).

As for team sizes, a comparison to other development teams is pretty much impossible because Square doesn’t release any information about the make-up of their development divisions. The only team size out of all the Square JP teams that we know is Luminous Productions, which had 130 devs as of September 2019. We can however compare Square’s overall employee count of 4,600 as of 2019 to other publishers, and it is true that Square is smaller than the 3 big western publishers as well as Take-Two/2K (EA and Activision-Blizzard have about twice the employees Square has while Ubisoft has a whopping 16,000, and Take-Two is just slightly bigger than Square at 5,200 employees), but they are the biggest JP publisher, and also seem to have more devs than Zenimax (Bethesda Parent company which released like 10 AAA games this gen) and Warner Bros. Interactive.

Xxain said:

Terrible Terrible Terrible comparison. 

You comparing Publishers who have a shit ton of studios around the world, who regularly rotate the IP among those studios/ or involve multiple studios for different parts of ONE game to ONE DEVELOPMEMT TEAM! Ubisoft specifically does this! Example Assasin Creed Odysssey was done by Ubisoft Montreal, Quebec and Singapore! That is over 1000 bodies working on 1 game! 

SE has 5 active teams and those teams are responsible for all parts of those projects. Japan has remained very traditional about this.

EDIT: you also are not considering that western development teams tend to focus one IP for the entire gen while Japanese developments teams tend to have multiple IPs they juggle. So you just cant ignore that only one DQ was released when that same team also does Mana games too.

Perhaps, but your argument that 1 AAA game per IP per gen is about the same as other developers is equally as bad, I think I showed that much. Fact is that the vast majority of AAA games are made in 3 or 4 years, and yet in the 8th console generation, which ran from Holiday 2013 to Fall 2020, 7 years, only 1 of Square’s JP development teams has managed to release 2 AAA games, Nomura’s team which released KH3 and FF7 Remake part 1. Square’s other JP development teams only released 1 AAA game or no AAA games during this 7 year gen. That is slower than average for AAA development.

You are right that Square’s JP teams have released a good many smaller AA and A games  this past gen, but it doesn’t change the fact that they haven’t released many AAA games. The other publishers have also released a lot of smaller games after all, while still managing to release more AAA games than Square did. Even ignoring western devs, Capcom pulled off more AAA games than Square this gen, while also releasing at least as many AA and A games as Square released, despite having less developers than Square.

I acknowledged that Square has enough development teams and developers to pull off a lot more AAA games next gen, and job listings suggest that they are going to try to increase AAA development next gen. But I am not going to count my chickens before they hatch. Nobody will be more happy than me to see Square release a lot more AAA games next gen, I truly hope they do, but I’m not going to expect it because that may lead to disappointment.

.... Your argument is still bad because you cross comparing development strategies as if everybody should running off the same blueprint.

When the new CEO of Square Enix took over part of SE's new approach would be to focus on AAA installments in popular IP's while growing smaller projects. Those smaller projects that exceeded SE's expectations would given bigger budgets each installment and after the third success, a possibility of becoming a key IP (Nier is currently on its way to SE's 4th key IP as they gave the main his own studio after Automata success). This was done in response to the previous CEO's management disaster (that everybody complained about). SE has made the choice to have a small pool of AAA's.

Major IP's

Final Fantasy

Kingdom Hearts

Dragon Quest

Each got one got at least one installment (Final Fantasy got 2 with a MMO that receives frequent updates) . You keep complaining about the fact that SE did not release more AAA's; They only have 3 and none of them are annual releases. That is another problem in your argument; you are comparing SE IP's, which are built from the ground up every installment, to IP's that are built heavily from recycled assets ( multiple development teams of people working of them). If you take SE and compare them to other development teams that do not do annual release you will the output is similiar:

Guerilla Games: 2 titles this gen, Creative Division 1 (Old guard FF Team): 2 Tiles 

Naughty Dog: 2, CD1: 2

Sucker Punch: 2, 

A much more fair and sensible comparison. I do enjoy how you compare SE"s Japanese developers to entire global publishers. Is there a reason why you are ignoring Deus Ex, Just Cause and Tomb Raider? You take a global publisher, reduce them to one division, then compare them to everybody else's global.... ok.

Your CAPCOM comparison also sucks! You are comparing a developer who makes primarily action games ( that take less then 10 hours finish) to developers who make RPG's than span 100 of hours. The only thing that CAPCOM has made that is comparable is Monster Hunter. Now if CAP teams only made MH size games... Those numbers would drop heavily. 

Your arguments reeks of one not constrcuted with honest and fair intent.

Last edited by Xxain - on 29 May 2020

shikamaru317 said:
Xxain said:

.... Your argument is still bad because you cross comparing development strategies as if everybody should running off the same blueprint.

When the new CEO of Square Enix took over part of SE's new approach would be to focus on AAA installments in popular IP's while growing smaller projects. Those smaller projects that exceeded SE's expectations would given bigger budgets each installment and after the third success, a possibility of becoming a key IP (Nier is currently on its way to SE's 4th key IP as they gave the main his own studio after Automata success). This was done in response to the previous CEO's management disaster (that everybody complained about). SE has made the choice to have a small pool of AAA's.

Major IP's

Final Fantasy

Kingdom Hearts

Dragon Quest

Each got one got at least one installment (Final Fantasy got 2 with a MMO that receives frequent updates) . You keep complaining about the fact that SE did not release more AAA's; They only have 3 and none of them are annual releases. That is another problem in your argument; you are comparing SE IP's, which are built from the ground up every installment, to IP's that are built heavily from recycled assets ( multiple development teams of people working of them). If you take SE and compare them to other development teams that do not do annual release you will the output is similiar:

Guerilla Games: 2 titles this gen, Creative Division 1 (Old guard FF Team): 2 Tiles 

Naughty Dog: 2, CD1: 2

Sucker Punch: 2, 

A much more fair and sensible comparison. I do enjoy how you compare SE"s Japanese developers to entire global publishers. Is there a reason why you are ignoring Deus Ex, Just Cause and Tomb Raider? You take a global publisher, reduce them to one division, then compare them to everybody else's global.... ok.

Your CAPCOM comparison also sucks! You are comparing a developer who makes primarily action games ( that take less then 10 hours finish) to developers who make RPG's than span 100 of hours. The only thing that CAPCOM has made that is comparable is Monster Hunter. Now if CAP teams only made MH size games... Those numbers would drop heavily. 

Your arguments reeks of one not constrcuted with honest and fair intent.

Just because that was is the CEO's strategy doesn't mean that I have to like it. I simply don't like very many of Square's smaller IP's. Nier is good and I am glad that it has it's own internal team now, Yoko Taro should be able to do great things next gen while expanding the scale and budget of Nier. Bravely Default 1 was kind of cool, but the announcement of Bravely Default 2 disappointed me, I don't like that they barely improved the graphics over the 3DS, even though Switch is way more powerful than 3DS. I don't like Octopath at all, the art style totally ruins it for me. Never been a big Mana fan, the new Trials of Mana remake looks ok, but I would much rather Square had given Chrono Trigger that type of remake treatment.

I would much rather see Square focusing more heavily on large AA or AAA development than they have been. Next gen I want FF16, more FF7 Remake Parts, and more FF remakes, especially 6 and 8 (either AA Trials of Mana type or AAA FF7 type). I want more Kingdom Hearts, I want an interquel between KH3 and KH4 and KH4 next gen. I want a AA (Trials of Mana type) or AAA (FF7 type) remake of Chrono Trigger. And of course I want more Nier next-gen. To see Agni's Philosophy turned into an actual game by Luminous would be great as well. 

As I already said, the only Square team that managed more than 1 AAA in 7 years was Nomura's team. That is not similar to other AAA studios. Most AAA studios have released at least 2 AAA's in the 7 year generation, the only one I can think of off the top of my head who didn't is Rocksteady (only Batman Arkham Knight this gen). Every other AAA studio I can think of has released at least 2 AAA games this gen.

I already acknowledged that Square's western teams have much faster AAA output than their JP teams in an edit to one of my earlier posts. However, I'm also disappointed in the direction that Square has taken their western studios in over the course of this gen. They shut down United Front Games after the Sleeping Dogs MMO didn't work out, instead of greenlight Sleeping Dogs 2 with a somewhat lower budget, even though Sleeping Dogs sold pretty well lifetime (at least 5m including the XB1/PS4 ports). They have now pulled Eidos and Crystal off of Deus Ex and Tomb Raider to work on the rather meh looking Avengers game, and I think they have Eidos working on a 2nd Marvel game as well, so it will be ages before we get the final game in the Adam Jensen trilogy, if we get it at all. 

I think given all of that, that I'm well within my rights to have muted expectations for Square's AAA lineup next gen on a subjective level. Like I already said, I'll be happy to have Square prove me wrong next-gen, but I'm not going to have high expectations for Square's AAA output next-gen because I don't want to set myself up for disappointment. 

A lot of this is just blah blah blah but will entertain it. 

1.  First of all it is not Nomura's team. Nomura is with the Creative Division 1 and that develop team is led by Kitase. The reason this team managed more than one AAA release is because they manage 2 out of 3 of the companies AAA IP. Square Enix has 5 studios. Square Enix only has 3 AAA IP's: Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest and Kingdom Hearts. You want them to produce more AAA IP's but that means they will milk those 3 IP's dry which they did last gen, which resulted in, you guessed it, varying quality not expected of a Final Fantasy and totally crappy Kingdom games OR high spending on New unproven IP. You just told us that you don't even like a lot of SE's IP's so what is to say they make a new IP and you like that one? Titles like Mana and Bravely will receive better/bigger budest as their games see success. 

2. Sleeping Dogs did not cover its owns expenses and was deemed to have underperformed. Those extra sales came form the all the discounts, world of mouth, re-releases ext, but the time frame it was expected make turn a profit, it did not. Business as usual. I do find it strange that you are asking for a Sleeping Dogs sequel with a lower budget but then complaining about SE not producing more AAA's.

3. I do not care about you having muted expectations, just the very faulty logic behind it. Your logic currently sums up as " There is no way that SE can have FF16, KH, FF7R and new IP in development at the same time (even though they are being developed by different teams and 2 of those teams have not had a major projects in years) because their AAA output has been lower than the annual copy and paste release of western developers (even though they put out a Major installment in all their IP's this gen and not none annual franchises). That is dumb. You are asking them to produce more than what they have in terms of manpower and IP's. Unreasonable and Unsensible.

ClassicGamingWizzz said:
You got to BE shitting If you think square Will release 7 or 8 games of that scope in a single GEN. Expecting it is crazy

Btw Shika, hes telling that your expectation for the amount of AAA games that SE's Japanese Divsion should but out is ridiculous. New Gen, at the very least:

1. FF16

2. Rest of FF7R ( I don't think SE will want this project crossing into multiple gens, willing to be wrong here)

3. New KH

4. Luminous Studio IP

5. Nier

Sensible expectation of what we should expect from SE's Japanese division in regards to next gen AAA.



Finally, bring it on. I want to see what they will commit to launch. No more upbeat rumours, it’s better to deal in facts. HZD2 seems to be the popular bet. GT7 maaaaybe if not 2021. Sony Japan is the wild card. The rest are too far off or are releasing on PS4 this year all ready



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

I don't expect much from this presentation at all, mostly because I don't need to. Sony has always delivered in the end and I've never been disappointed in a console of theirs (Even the Vita had a great first year and a half but nobody was buying so it lost support pretty quickly). I don't expect the launch to be anything special, but being backwards compatible means I can play Ps4 games on the system with ease. on my 4K TV (My Ps4 is a launch console and doesn't support 4k resolution). I win either way.

I've also heard heavy rumours of a Demon's Souls remaster for launch and I read somewhere about a Ratchet & Clank game for launch, so that right there is enough to encite me to get the console. Likely not true, but I kinda don't care; sony has always delivered and I'll continue buying PS consoles until they go a whole generation without delivering the goods. PS3 was about as close as that got, and that was a painful 3-4 years but they turned it around in the end.

All I care about for the console is: What Backwards compatible options are there, and will PS4 games on the system be upscaled to 4K? Been holding off on a few games that have 4K upgrades/updates because I only recently got a 4K TV and still don't have a 4K compatible system.



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

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sales2099 said:
Finally, bring it on. I want to see what they will commit to launch. No more upbeat rumours, it’s better to deal in facts. HZD2 seems to be the popular bet. GT7 maaaaybe if not 2021. Sony Japan is the wild card. The rest are too far off or are releasing on PS4 this year all ready

Why do you care so much about launch? the fact that the PS4 has FFVII Remake, The Last of Us Part II, and Ghost of Tsushima all in its last year is proof that a console's WHOLE life cycle matters. Even if the PS5's launch sucks, I have every bit of faith that it will deliver. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android