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Forums - Microsoft - Xbox Series X's cross-gen approach is robbing players of the next-gen thrill

ArchangelMadzz on 18 May 2020
DonFerrari said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Hmm,

"The mind-blowing graphics?" The huge step in gaming experiences that we've been waiting for?"

Ryse certainly looked better than 360 graphics, but was it, "mind blowing?" Lets be serious, the visual leap wasn't PS1 to Dreamcast mind blowing. Ryse resembled a 7th gen game but with more polish. Crysis 3 on 360 was technically impressive, but lacked the polish of Ryse. Further more, the launch games weren't the, "huge step in gaming experiences we've been waiting for?" You obviously agree so ignored that.

You're cherry picking. Black Flag and CoD Ghosts barely looked different. Meanwhile something like Battlefield 4 showed a huge disparity. Both in performance (30 fps vs 60 fps) and visuals. I don't think its a coincidence you ignored that game. Hence, 8th and 9th gen games can make the visual and performance disparity like we saw in Battlefield 4.

Again, I hope developers focusing on cross gen games are also designing the games to take advantage of 9th gen consoles. If the 9th gen versions demonstrate better performance, better assets, better effects and reduce load times significantly, than that would still demonstrate a power disparity between 8th and 9th gen hardware.

In fact, its evident something like Gears 5 will do that from the start. The base X1 version is 30 fps with low/medium settings. The Series X version was apparently doing highest PC settings, 60 fps and 4K. I would argue that's overall bigger than what Ryse did.

I'll just say that Killzone Shadow Fall and Infamous SS wouldn't be possible on PS3 unless they made big cuts. Also Knack for all the hate and flack couldn't have the physics done on PS3.

Thanks for summarising my point, better than I did aha.



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Mr Puggsly on 18 May 2020
DonFerrari said:

I'll just say that Killzone Shadow Fall and Infamous SS wouldn't be possible on PS3 unless they made big cuts. Also Knack for all the hate and flack couldn't have the physics done on PS3.

Perhaps, I think those games COULD work better on 7th gen than you suspect.

I mean are any of those games much more impressive than Crysis 3, Battlefield 4 or GTAV? Outside of graphics, not really.

I feel like people forget how many ambitious, large scale games actually existed on 7th gen even with a fraction of spec capabilities. Even Saint's Row IV did large scale, fast paced action kinda like Infamous:SS. Just Cause 2 also deserves a mention.

Hence, I think all those games could work on 7th gen with visual cutbacks. The gameplay aspects weren't that impressive.



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Mr Puggsly on 18 May 2020
ArchangelMadzz said:
DonFerrari said:

I'll just say that Killzone Shadow Fall and Infamous SS wouldn't be possible on PS3 unless they made big cuts. Also Knack for all the hate and flack couldn't have the physics done on PS3.

Thanks for summarising my point, better than I did aha.

I think you guys are coming to the conclusion 8th gen games of 2013/2014 were less impressive than you were suggesting.

So the goalpost moves to just presentation. But even there 9th gen consoles can offer a massive overall visual improvement. The cross gen games coming for the 9th gen launch will more closely resemble the experience of higher end gaming PCs. That may include 4K and/or 60 fps in some cases.



Recently Completed: 
River City: Rival Showdown for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

DonFerrari on 18 May 2020
Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

I'll just say that Killzone Shadow Fall and Infamous SS wouldn't be possible on PS3 unless they made big cuts. Also Knack for all the hate and flack couldn't have the physics done on PS3.

Perhaps, I think those games COULD work better on 7th gen than you suspect.

I mean are any of those games much more impressive than Crysis 3, Battlefield 4 or GTAV? Outside of graphics, not really.

I feel like people forget how many ambitious, large scale games actually existed on 7th gen even with a fraction of spec capabilities. Even Saint's Row IV did large scale, fast paced action kinda like Infamous:SS. Just Cause 2 also deserves a mention.

Hence, I think all those games could work on 7th gen with visual cutbacks. The gameplay aspects weren't that impressive.

You may think the gameplay wasn't impressive. But Neither of these 3 games are just prettier version of their PS3 predecessors.

And if you want to go the dismissive route you can say that Halo Infinite would run on Xbox original with enough visual cutbacks.



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ArchangelMadzz on 18 May 2020
Mr Puggsly said:
ArchangelMadzz said:

Thanks for summarising my point, better than I did aha.

I think you guys are coming to the conclusion 8th gen games of 2013/2014 were less impressive than you were suggesting.

So the goalpost moves to just presentation. But even there 9th gen consoles can offer a massive overall visual improvement. The cross gen games coming for the 9th gen launch will more closely resemble the experience of higher end gaming PCs. That may include 4K and/or 60 fps in some cases.

No goalposts has been moved. The point is that last gen we had titles that were clear next generation in terms of either visual fidelity or things the game could do that previous gen games could not. 

We still had cross gen titles that had added resolution/frame rate and a cleaner image like we will have this year.

But I don't think we've seen anything so far that says, yep that definitely couldn't have been done on XB1X without severely cutting back. Resogun for example, a small indie game that came out with the PS4 that could never ever have ran on a PS3.



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Mr Puggsly on 18 May 2020
ArchangelMadzz said:

Because XSX and PS5 uses SSD's, cross gen games will never be on the level that games designed specifically for them, not even close. Level design and game mechanics change massively. Uncharted for example has so many of the super slow, sully and nate helping each other climb over obstacles, because the system needs to load up the next part of the level. The layout of levels is so that pop in isn't too bad for asset loading, the speed of travel in open world games is limited due to the storage. 

Surely they can look decent but the entire game design changes when you know everyone playing this game will have a super fast SSD. I think that's the point most people are trying to make.

I'm not drinking the SSD Kool Aid yet. At the very least I hope it does speed up load times.

I believe Uncharted had slow sections because that was the game they designed. Walking and talking is just a big part of that series.

Hence, I don't think the average game design is necessarily going to change. Many games are designed the way they are to tell a story. Games focused on telling a story aren't necessarily focused on large environments that have you flying across the map quickly.



Recently Completed: 
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Mr Puggsly on 18 May 2020
ArchangelMadzz said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I think you guys are coming to the conclusion 8th gen games of 2013/2014 were less impressive than you were suggesting.

So the goalpost moves to just presentation. But even there 9th gen consoles can offer a massive overall visual improvement. The cross gen games coming for the 9th gen launch will more closely resemble the experience of higher end gaming PCs. That may include 4K and/or 60 fps in some cases.

No goalposts has been moved. The point is that last gen we had titles that were clear next generation in terms of either visual fidelity or things the game could do that previous gen games could not. 

We still had cross gen titles that had added resolution/frame rate and a cleaner image like we will have this year.

But I don't think we've seen anything so far that says, yep that definitely couldn't have been done on XB1X without severely cutting back. Resogun for example, a small indie game that came out with the PS4 that could never ever have ran on a PS3.

Again, the focus has become presentation because we are admitting the actual game design was underwhelming.

I also feel more developers are now building their games to scale between specs better. Hence, visual disparity between cross gen games should be more significant this time than 2013. I could be wrong, but its what I expect.

Another example, if we get Control on 9th gen consoles that would be a noticeable upgrade over the 8th gen versions simply for using existing assets, effects found on PC. 60 fps would also show a huge disparity.

I'm confused, are you suggesting Resogun wouldn't work on PS3?



Recently Completed: 
River City: Rival Showdown for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Mr Puggsly on 18 May 2020
DonFerrari said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Perhaps, I think those games COULD work better on 7th gen than you suspect.

I mean are any of those games much more impressive than Crysis 3, Battlefield 4 or GTAV? Outside of graphics, not really.

I feel like people forget how many ambitious, large scale games actually existed on 7th gen even with a fraction of spec capabilities. Even Saint's Row IV did large scale, fast paced action kinda like Infamous:SS. Just Cause 2 also deserves a mention.

Hence, I think all those games could work on 7th gen with visual cutbacks. The gameplay aspects weren't that impressive.

You may think the gameplay wasn't impressive. But Neither of these 3 games are just prettier version of their PS3 predecessors.

And if you want to go the dismissive route you can say that Halo Infinite would run on Xbox original with enough visual cutbacks.

I don't think, I argue the gameplay wasn't impressive. I am also arguing there were 7th gen games that were technically as or more impressive than the 3 8th gen games mentioned.

We haven't seen Halo Infinite yet. I have argued Halo 5's campaign gameplay could fundamentally work on a OG Xbox.



Recently Completed: 
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ArchangelMadzz on 18 May 2020
Mr Puggsly said:
ArchangelMadzz said:

Because XSX and PS5 uses SSD's, cross gen games will never be on the level that games designed specifically for them, not even close. Level design and game mechanics change massively. Uncharted for example has so many of the super slow, sully and nate helping each other climb over obstacles, because the system needs to load up the next part of the level. The layout of levels is so that pop in isn't too bad for asset loading, the speed of travel in open world games is limited due to the storage. 

Surely they can look decent but the entire game design changes when you know everyone playing this game will have a super fast SSD. I think that's the point most people are trying to make.

I'm not drinking the SSD Kool Aid yet. At the very least I hope it does speed up load times.

I believe Uncharted had slow sections because that was the game they designed. Walking and talking is just a big part of that series.

Hence, I don't think the average game design is necessarily going to change. Many games are designed the way they are to tell a story. Games focused on telling a story aren't necessarily focused on large environments that have you flying across the map quickly.

Everyone who's involved in game development is very excited about the SSD's in the XSX and the PS5. It would be difficult to get you on board, that's not what I'm trying to do, the only thing I can say is that storage speed has fundamentally hindered game development for many years.

Again, I know you've said about uncharted but a lot of these games have many ways that they hide loading by slowing you down. Whether it's unlocking doors mechanics, to squeezing through small cave openings very slowly so that the game can load the next section. Spiderman's web slinging speed and many more subtle ways, these would not be needed anymore. 

Cross gen titles would still need these mechanics in because of the HDD's on PS4P and XB1X, and that includes slow, story based games with their level design. A game specifically designed to run on a 2.4GB/s SSD would almost need to be redone to function on a HDD. Cross gen titles will load much quicker but there won't be any of these major changes until games are built from the ground up for superfast SSD's. 

Time will only tell, but even a game like Horizon: Zero Dawn, built specifically for a 5.5GB/s SSD would work fundamentally different to what it turned out to be. 

Mr Puggsly said:
ArchangelMadzz said:

No goalposts has been moved. The point is that last gen we had titles that were clear next generation in terms of either visual fidelity or things the game could do that previous gen games could not. 

We still had cross gen titles that had added resolution/frame rate and a cleaner image like we will have this year.

But I don't think we've seen anything so far that says, yep that definitely couldn't have been done on XB1X without severely cutting back. Resogun for example, a small indie game that came out with the PS4 that could never ever have ran on a PS3.

Again, the focus has become presentation because we are admitting the actual game design was underwhelming.

I also feel more developers are now building their games to scale between specs better. Hence, visual disparity between cross gen games should be more significant this time than 2013. I could be wrong, but its what I expect.

Another example, if we get Control on 9th gen consoles that would be a noticeable upgrade over the 8th gen versions simply for using existing assets, effects found on PC. 60 fps would also show a huge disparity.

I'm confused, are you suggesting Resogun wouldn't work on PS3?

Whoops correction:I remember reading a piece of PR about how much GPU power Resogun uses and that it can't be doneon PS3. But they did manage to port it, apparently my 2013 memory isn't amazing. 





There's only 2 races: White and 'Political Agenda'
2 Genders: Male and 'Political Agenda'
2 Hairstyles for female characters: Long and 'Political Agenda'
2 Sexualities: Straight and 'Political Agenda'

goopy20 on 18 May 2020
Mr Puggsly said:
ArchangelMadzz said:

Because XSX and PS5 uses SSD's, cross gen games will never be on the level that games designed specifically for them, not even close. Level design and game mechanics change massively. Uncharted for example has so many of the super slow, sully and nate helping each other climb over obstacles, because the system needs to load up the next part of the level. The layout of levels is so that pop in isn't too bad for asset loading, the speed of travel in open world games is limited due to the storage. 

Surely they can look decent but the entire game design changes when you know everyone playing this game will have a super fast SSD. I think that's the point most people are trying to make.

I'm not drinking the SSD Kool Aid yet. At the very least I hope it does speed up load times.

I believe Uncharted had slow sections because that was the game they designed. Walking and talking is just a big part of that series.

Hence, I don't think the average game design is necessarily going to change. Many games are designed the way they are to tell a story. Games focused on telling a story aren't necessarily focused on large environments that have you flying across the map quickly.

I also don't think we'll get a ton of super hero games next gen where you're just flying all over the place, simply because the tech allows it too. What we saw in the Unreal 5 demo were also closed, linear environments that we're seeing now in narrative driven games. The big difference, however, is that it seamlessly went from indoor to outdoor and she was zipping really fast through a huge open world without any sort of pop-ins or loss in detail. It basically showed us exactly what Sony promised their SSD tech could do.

Obviously, that was just a tech demo to show what is possible, but gameplay wise it will definitely be a game changer. Think of something like Horizon Zero Dawn where you'll have way more complex and detailed indoor environments combined with open world exploration, and where you can fly through the environment on the back of a giant robotic chicken! It will be glorious, I tell yas! If we look at current gen, I think BOTW actually gives a good idea on how that can change gameplay mechanics.