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Forums - Politics - Official 2020 US Presidential Election Thread

EricHiggin said:
vivster said:
EricHiggin said:

An 'insider' on InfoWars 'predicted' some of the recent admin changes weeks ago and also 'predicted' just days after the election, that Trump would tweet something out approximately 10 days after election day that would be the true major fraud Trumps going after. He was right about the admin changes and was right about Trumps tweet yesterday. Is the info in that tweet legit or BS though?

Whether or not that tweet is backed by legit evidence or not who knows exactly? What I've seen, is that the day before Trump tweeted that, a list of around 25 states that use those same voting machines was being spread around the net. Pennsylvania was at the top, and Trumps numbers match the numbers on that list. 

If that list of flipped votes and deducted votes is legit, Trump actually won the election in the first place. The states that the list would give Trump the win are Pennsylvania, Georgia, and Virginia. Georgia by like 30,000 votes or so I think. The other two would be hundreds of thousands of votes and higher yet.

The list even says just under 5,000 votes flipped in Arizona, which Trump is behind by about 10,000 right now by the looks of it. The rest of the numbers aren't enough to give Trump anymore wins in anymore states from what I can tell.

Maybe it's true, maybe not. I have not idea. If it's BS, then WTF Trump? If it's legit, sh*ts gunna hit the fan.

Occam's razor is our best friend. Is the known pathological liar lying or is there a coordinated effort(or random malfunction) across multiple swing states that rigged the election?

Please don't pose that question as if each possible outcome is just as likely. That's what propagandists do.

sundin13 said:
EricHiggin said:

Maybe it's true, maybe not. I have not idea. If it's BS, then WTF Trump? If it's legit, sh*ts gunna hit the fan.

As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Also as they say, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thousands of times over the course of four years and perhaps I should have stopped believing those extraordinary claims years ago and the fact that I am still reacting to them like "Wait a minute, let's hear him out. Maybe he's onto something" with no solid evidence and with his own Federal Government stating that there is no evidence of deleted or switched votes, should tell you a lot about how much I am willing to believe to support my biases. 

They say that, right?

The list covers around 25 states, not just the swing states, and only a couple of them showed no flips or deductions. The rest did to some degree. Some a lot, some very minor. Why did a few not flip any votes? That does seem odd if the rest did, even in locked down states that were never going to flip.

As I said prior, I've got no idea. I don't necessarily think it's legit or not. I'm just telling you what I've seen.

But what have you actually seen? What you have seen is people saying they have seen something, so far without any evidence.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/nov/12/donald-trump/trumps-tweet-about-27-million-deleted-votes-basele/

See this^ please. Might be an answer to your unsolved mystery.



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vivster said:
EricHiggin said:
vivster said:
EricHiggin said:

An 'insider' on InfoWars 'predicted' some of the recent admin changes weeks ago and also 'predicted' just days after the election, that Trump would tweet something out approximately 10 days after election day that would be the true major fraud Trumps going after. He was right about the admin changes and was right about Trumps tweet yesterday. Is the info in that tweet legit or BS though?

Whether or not that tweet is backed by legit evidence or not who knows exactly? What I've seen, is that the day before Trump tweeted that, a list of around 25 states that use those same voting machines was being spread around the net. Pennsylvania was at the top, and Trumps numbers match the numbers on that list. 

If that list of flipped votes and deducted votes is legit, Trump actually won the election in the first place. The states that the list would give Trump the win are Pennsylvania, Georgia, and Virginia. Georgia by like 30,000 votes or so I think. The other two would be hundreds of thousands of votes and higher yet.

The list even says just under 5,000 votes flipped in Arizona, which Trump is behind by about 10,000 right now by the looks of it. The rest of the numbers aren't enough to give Trump anymore wins in anymore states from what I can tell.

Maybe it's true, maybe not. I have not idea. If it's BS, then WTF Trump? If it's legit, sh*ts gunna hit the fan.

Occam's razor is our best friend. Is the known pathological liar lying or is there a coordinated effort(or random malfunction) across multiple swing states that rigged the election?

Please don't pose that question as if each possible outcome is just as likely. That's what propagandists do.

sundin13 said:
EricHiggin said:

Maybe it's true, maybe not. I have not idea. If it's BS, then WTF Trump? If it's legit, sh*ts gunna hit the fan.

As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Also as they say, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thousands of times over the course of four years and perhaps I should have stopped believing those extraordinary claims years ago and the fact that I am still reacting to them like "Wait a minute, let's hear him out. Maybe he's onto something" with no solid evidence and with his own Federal Government stating that there is no evidence of deleted or switched votes, should tell you a lot about how much I am willing to believe to support my biases. 

They say that, right?

The list covers around 25 states, not just the swing states, and only a couple of them showed no flips or deductions. The rest did to some degree. Some a lot, some very minor. Why did a few not flip any votes? That does seem odd if the rest did, even in locked down states that were never going to flip.

As I said prior, I've got no idea. I don't necessarily think it's legit or not. I'm just telling you what I've seen.

But what have you actually seen? What you have seen is people saying they have seen something, so far without any evidence.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/nov/12/donald-trump/trumps-tweet-about-27-million-deleted-votes-basele/

I looked it up already, and yes I saw Politifact's take on it. Even they reword how a question is asked to be able to answer it "pants on fire" at times. 

Do I think they're definitely wrong here? No, but I also don't simply eat whatever I'm fed, no matter the situation. I'm not someone who believes everything 100%. I always leave at least a little room for possibilities.

If this is all you need to feel comfortable that it's completely BS, that's fine. I'm not going to tell you they're definitely wrong because they may not be.



PS1   - ! - We must build a console that can alert our enemies.

PS2  - @- We must build a console that offers online living room gaming.

PS3   - #- We must build a console that’s powerful, social, costs and does everything.

PS4   - $- We must build a console that’s affordable, charges for services, and pumps out exclusives.

PRO  -%-We must build a console that's VR ready, checkerboard upscales, and sells but a fraction of the money printer.

PS5   - ^ -We must build a console that’s a generational cross product, with RT lighting, and price hiking.

PRO  -&- We must build a console that Super Res upscales and continues the cost increases.

EricHiggin said:
vivster said:

But what have you actually seen? What you have seen is people saying they have seen something, so far without any evidence.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/nov/12/donald-trump/trumps-tweet-about-27-million-deleted-votes-basele/

I looked it up already, and yes I saw Politifact's take on it. Even they reword how a question is asked to be able to answer it "pants on fire" at times. 

Do I think they're definitely wrong here? No, but I also don't simply eat whatever I'm fed, no matter the situation. I'm not someone who believes everything 100%. I always leave at least a little room for possibilities.

If this is all you need to feel comfortable that it's completely BS, that's fine. I'm not going to tell you they're definitely wrong because they might not be.

That kind of mindset is not what breeds progress or results. It only breeds cults and conspiracy theories. It's also an easy cop-out for everything so I can see why it's such an appealing stance to adopt.

Being critical is good. Being critical against a consensus without any counter evidence is just being contrarian.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

EricHiggin said:

I looked it up already, and yes I saw Politifact's take on it. Even they reword how a question is asked to be able to answer it "pants on fire" at times. 

Do I think they're definitely wrong here? No, but I also don't simply eat whatever I'm fed, no matter the situation. I'm not someone who believes everything 100%. I always leave at least a little room for possibilities.

If this is all you need to feel comfortable that it's completely BS, that's fine. I'm not going to tell you they're definitely wrong because they may not be.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you probably don't need to sequence its entire genomic code when someone tells you that you are actually looking at a tiny giraffe. At some point, "leaving room for possibilities" just becomes enabling bullshit and even if you aren't completely accepting it, you are still spreading it around.



vivster said:
EricHiggin said:

I looked it up already, and yes I saw Politifact's take on it. Even they reword how a question is asked to be able to answer it "pants on fire" at times. 

Do I think they're definitely wrong here? No, but I also don't simply eat whatever I'm fed, no matter the situation. I'm not someone who believes everything 100%. I always leave at least a little room for possibilities.

If this is all you need to feel comfortable that it's completely BS, that's fine. I'm not going to tell you they're definitely wrong because they might not be.

That kind of mindset is not what breeds progress or results. It only breeds cults and conspiracy theories. It's also an easy cop-out for everything so I can see why it's such an appealing stance to adopt.

Being critical is good. Being critical against a consensus without any counter evidence is just being contrarian.

A little leeway, goes a long way. There is a balance though. My more recent life progress and results have been much better with a more open mindset, within reason of course. Being too conservative isn't a good thing.

 

Ka-pi96 said:
EricHiggin said:

I looked it up already, and yes I saw Politifact's take on it. Even they reword how a question is asked to be able to answer it "pants on fire" at times. 

Do I think they're definitely wrong here? No, but I also don't simply eat whatever I'm fed, no matter the situation. I'm not someone who believes everything 100%. I always leave at least a little room for possibilities.

If this is all you need to feel comfortable that it's completely BS, that's fine. I'm not going to tell you they're definitely wrong because they may not be.

Really? For everything?

If somebody were to say "you're a turnip". Your response would be "hey, maybe I am"?

Some people who are physically male or female believe or are certain they are the opposite. Some apparently land somewhere within the spectrum. Should we tell them they are 100% wrong? That they are what they are and that can never change?

I could end up a vegetable at any time so sure, it's possible.

sundin13 said:
EricHiggin said:

I looked it up already, and yes I saw Politifact's take on it. Even they reword how a question is asked to be able to answer it "pants on fire" at times. 

Do I think they're definitely wrong here? No, but I also don't simply eat whatever I'm fed, no matter the situation. I'm not someone who believes everything 100%. I always leave at least a little room for possibilities.

If this is all you need to feel comfortable that it's completely BS, that's fine. I'm not going to tell you they're definitely wrong because they may not be.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you probably don't need to sequence its entire genomic code when someone tells you that you are actually looking at a tiny giraffe. At some point, "leaving room for possibilities" just becomes enabling bullshit and even if you aren't completely accepting it, you are still spreading it around.

I didn't bring it up, I responded to a point made about it. What's the problem with me replying? You think more people seeing it will summon the universe to change the 'simulation' so Trump wins? Common man.



PS1   - ! - We must build a console that can alert our enemies.

PS2  - @- We must build a console that offers online living room gaming.

PS3   - #- We must build a console that’s powerful, social, costs and does everything.

PS4   - $- We must build a console that’s affordable, charges for services, and pumps out exclusives.

PRO  -%-We must build a console that's VR ready, checkerboard upscales, and sells but a fraction of the money printer.

PS5   - ^ -We must build a console that’s a generational cross product, with RT lighting, and price hiking.

PRO  -&- We must build a console that Super Res upscales and continues the cost increases.

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I didn't bring it up, I responded to a point made about it. What's the problem with me replying? You think more people seeing it will summon the universe to change the 'simulation' so Trump wins? Common man.

Psychologists use the term “gaslighting” to refer to a specific type of manipulation where the manipulator is trying to get someone else (or a group of people) to question their own reality, memory or perceptions. And it's always a serious problem, according to psychologists

Your a classic gaslighter,  no one should pay you any more attention  



I haven't posted much here since before election day, as I've been mostly just waiting for the data to roll in before chiming in with thoughts. I think there's enough info now though to draw some definite conclusions.

-First of all, yes it's clear that Biden won and that this election will be seen as a net gain for the Democrats. However, it also wasn't a Democratic landslide. As of this writing, with approximately 97% of votes counted, Biden has gotten 50.9% of votes that have been tallied to Trump's 47.3%. That's a 3.6% gap and it will likely grow wider as more mail-in ballots are counted. The final margin here will either be comparable to or perhaps even identical to the 3.9% margin by which Obama defeated Romney in 2012, albeit with somewhat different contours. The Democrats have also netted one additional Senate seat (having gained two and lost one in this vote) while the Republicans picked up seven additional House seats.

-Both the Democratic and Republican candidates fared better than in 2016. This appears to be a result of 2016 third party and independent voters reverting back to their previous homes after just one cycle away; hence why this outcome so closely resembles the 2012 results. The Kanye West presidency, shockingly, did not materialize.

-Contradicting the narrative we see from time to time around VGC, in the media, and other spaces, it turns out that Donald Trump isn't actually the candidate of the American working class and the Democrats the favorite of the wealthy elites. According to the exit poll data, as adjusted for the actual demography of voters, 55% of voters with household incomes below $50,000 voted for Joe Biden, compared to 57% of voters making between $50,000 and $100,000 a year and just 42% of those making over $100,000. In other words, blue collar workers were practically just as likely to vote for Biden as the middle-income suburbanite professionals, while the richest 10% of the population -- essentially the capitalist class -- by contrast, were the only social class that favored Trump in their majority. I point this out mainly to defend my class against those who would imply that the American working class is the real problem with this country; the force leading it astray in a racist and anti-democratic direction.

-A major difference between the vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016 and that for Joe Biden this year is, frankly, white men. According to the aforementioned exit poll data, 38% of white men voted for Biden in this election; up quite a bit from 31% of this same group voting for Clinton four years ago. This difference by itself explains almost all of Biden's higher vote share. Considering that Biden and Clinton are essentially the same candidate but just of different sexes, I really cannot help but speculate that Biden's sex worked to his advantage while Hillary Clinton's worked to her disadvantage.

-57% of women voted for Biden versus 42% for Trump. 15-point margin; up from 13 points for Clinton four years ago and 11 points for Obama over Romney in 2012. There is a clear trend toward the Democratic Party here among female voters.

-It may also be notable that despite being blatantly pandered to throughout the campaign (the whole "law and order" stuff and such), Trump lost support among white voters compared to 2016. And conversely, Biden fared somewhat worse among voters of color than Hillary Clinton even after nominating a black running mate. I think it all goes to show that maybe, just maybe, much of the public in general -- black, white, brown, whatever -- is less obsessed with capital-R Race than our media landscape is (be it liberal or conservative) and in fact does rather favor "color-blindness" over 100-item checklists. And also, maybe that "demographic destiny" the Democrats keep talking about is bullshit.

-Trump doubled his vote share among lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender voters compared to 2016 from a measly 14% to 28% while Joe Biden garnered 61% thereof; the lowest share for a Democratic presidential nominee since the demographic was first recorded in 1992. Both with the Republicans actually establishing a proper LGBT outreach organization for the first time and with certain basic issues like marriage equality and adoption rights seeming to be in the rear-view mirror today, it seems that non-heterosexual and transgender voters may become a more competitive demographic going forward. I know I've become more open to voting Republican in the future, under the right circumstances.

-That "Generation X problem" that pollsters kept reporting Biden had ever since being nominated? Didn't materialize. He got 52% of the votes among voters 30 to 44 and essentially tied Trump among voters aged 45 to 64. Meanwhile, Biden improved on Clinton's support among younger voters.

-Also notable: Biden won both moderate and independent voters, not just self-identified liberals and Democrats.

This is just some of the stuff I think is most notable about this election outcome. The bottom line though is that the public has rejected the greatest threat to our democratic system of government we've seen in my lifetime, leaving Trump as only the fourth president in the last century to be defeated in a bid for re-election (the other three having been Herbert Hoover, Jimmy Carter, and George Bush Sr.). That's gotta be embarrassing for the guy in the White House. It would be funny if it hadn't cost so many people their lives and caused me and so many others so much very real trauma just to watch unfold.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 14 November 2020

Jaicee said:

I haven't posted much here since before election day, as I've been mostly just waiting for the data to roll in before chiming in with thoughts. I think there's enough info now though to draw some definite conclusions.

-First of all, yes it's clear that Biden won and that this election will be seen as a net gain for the Democrats. However, it also wasn't a Democratic landslide. As of this writing, with approximately 97% of votes counted, Biden has gotten 50.9% of votes that have been tallied to Trump's 47.3%. That's a 3.6% gap and it will likely grow wider as more mail-in ballots are counted. The final margin here will either be comparable to or perhaps even identical to the 3.9% margin by which Obama defeated Romney in 2012, albeit with somewhat different contours. The Democrats have also netted one additional Senate seat (having gained two and lost one in this vote) while the Republicans picked up seven additional House seats.

-Both the Democratic and Republican candidates fared better than in 2016. This appears to be a result of 2016 third party and independent voters reverting back to their previous homes after just one cycle away; hence why this outcome so closely resembles the 2012 results. The Kanye West presidency, shockingly, did not materialize.

-Contradicting the narrative we see from time to time around VGC, in the media, and other spaces, it turns out that Donald Trump isn't actually the candidate of the American working class and the Democrats the favorite of the wealthy elites. According to the exit poll data, as adjusted for the actual demography of voters, 55% of voters with household incomes below $50,000 voted for Joe Biden, compared to 57% of voters making between $50,000 and $100,000 a year and just 42% of those making over $100,000. In other words, blue collar workers were practically just as likely to vote for Biden as the middle-income suburbanite professionals, while the richest 10% of the population -- essentially the capitalist class -- by contrast, were the only social class that favored Trump in their majority. I point this out mainly to defend my class against those who would imply that the American working class is the real problem with this country; the force leading it astray in a racist and anti-democratic direction.

-A major difference between the vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016 and that for Joe Biden this year is, frankly, white men. According to the aforementioned exit poll data, 38% of white men voted for Biden in this election; up quite a bit from 31% of this same group voting for Clinton four years ago. This difference by itself explains almost all of Biden's higher vote share. Considering that Biden and Clinton are essentially the same candidate but just of different sexes, I really cannot help but speculate that Biden's sex worked to his advantage while Hillary Clinton's worked to her disadvantage.

-57% of women voted for Biden versus 42% for Trump. 15-point margin; up from 13 points for Clinton four years ago and 11 points for Obama over Romney in 2012. There is a clear trend toward the Democratic Party here among female voters.

-It may also be notable that despite being blatantly pandered to throughout the campaign (the whole "law and order" stuff and such), Trump lost support among white voters compared to 2016. And conversely, Biden fared somewhat worse among voters of color than Hillary Clinton even after nominating a black running mate. I think it all goes to show that maybe, just maybe, much of the public in general -- black, white, brown, whatever -- is less obsessed with capital-R Race than our media landscape is (be it liberal or conservative) and in fact does rather favor "color-blindness" over 100-item checklists. And also, maybe that "demographic destiny" the Democrats keep talking about is bullshit.

-Trump doubled his vote share among lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender voters compared to 2016 from a measly 14% to 28% while Joe Biden garnered 61% thereof; the lowest share for a Democratic presidential nominee since the demographic was first recorded in 1992. Both with the Republicans actually establishing a proper LGBT outreach organization for the first time and with certain basic issues like marriage equality and adoption rights seeming to be in the rear-view mirror today, it seems that non-heterosexual and transgender voters may become a more competitive demographic going forward. I know I've become more open to voting Republican in the future, under the right circumstances.

-That "Generation X problem" that pollsters kept reporting Biden had ever since being nominated? Didn't materialize. He got 52% of the votes among voters 30 to 44 and essentially tied Trump among voters aged 45 to 64. Meanwhile, Biden improved on Clinton's support among younger voters.

-Also notable: Biden won both moderate and independent voters, not just self-identified liberals and Democrats.

This is just some of the stuff I think is most notable about this election outcome. The bottom line though is that the public has rejected the greatest threat to our democratic system of government we've seen in my lifetime, leaving Trump as only the fourth president in the last century to be defeated in a bid for re-election (the other three having been Herbert Hoover, Jimmy Carter, and George Bush Sr.). That's gotta be embarrassing for the guy in the White House. It would be funny if it hadn't cost so many people their lives and caused me and so many others so much very real trauma just to watch unfold.

Just a quick note to most of your points. No one should use exit polls in this specific election to compare it to any other election. With the massive increase in absentee voting that heavily favors the Democrats any data gained from exit polls is pretty much meaningless because it will always be skewed more towards Republicans.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:

Just a quick note to most of your points. No one should use exit polls in this specific election to compare it to any other election. With the massive increase in absentee voting that heavily favors the Democrats any data gained from exit polls is pretty much meaningless because it will always be skewed more towards Republicans.

1) The exit poll this year included surveys of absentee voters and is adjusted for this.

2) The exit poll has proven far more accurate than any other survey of voters has this year, has it not? I mean if you just look at what we now know to be the actual outcome. As such, it's by far the most valuable survey as to what just happened and why. And personally, I really, really want to know why this happened. In detail.



Jaicee said:
vivster said:

Just a quick note to most of your points. No one should use exit polls in this specific election to compare it to any other election. With the massive increase in absentee voting that heavily favors the Democrats any data gained from exit polls is pretty much meaningless because it will always be skewed more towards Republicans.

1) The exit poll this year included surveys of absentee voters and is adjusted for this.

2) The exit poll has proven far more accurate than any other survey of voters has this year, has it not? I mean if you just look at what we now know to be the actual outcome. As such, it's by far the most valuable survey as to what just happened and why. And personally, I really, really want to know why this happened. In detail.

The problem is phone exit polls have the same issue as pre-election polling and is much less reliable then in person exit polling.  You cant make the assumption that the exit polling done on the phone any more accurate then a pre-election poll.

To get a more accurate perspective I would wait for Pew's Validated Voter survey which is consider historically one of the best way to gauged what actually happened but it going to be awhile before that report is complete.  We talking summer of next year before Pew's would complete that study.  There probably be other deep dive studies around that time.