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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Let's talk about Specs

 

You like Specs?

I love Specs! 16 40.00%
 
I kinda like Specs. 13 32.50%
 
Specs are for nerds! 2 5.00%
 
I don't care either way, ... 9 22.50%
 
Total:40

I may be wrong, but lets compare another situation: A dodge demon has a V8, with an engine as big as 6.2 L, plus 2.7 L from the supercharger. The McLaren 720s has a 4.0L with twin turbo. In the paper, the demon should eat alive the McLaren, but it turns out it doesnt...



                          

"We all make choices, but in the end, our choices make us" - Andrew Ryan, Bioshock.

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drkohler said:
These posts get longer and longer to digest with all the quoting.
So I ask everyone for just one thing:

Some people think that 2.23GHz is a boost clock and the thing actually runs at a lower clock some/most of the time. It is NOT.
When Cerny mentioned boost in his talk, he meant it in the engineering sense of the word. What they did when testing the SoC, they started with a low frequency and upped the frequency step by step until the gpu was no longer able to function correctly (My guess is a lot of SoCs bit the dust). This gave them the absolute upper clock limit. Then they did the same thing again up to a point where the thermal/power envelope was reached with whatever cooling solutions were tested. Apparently 2.23GHz is the "sweet spot" for the gpu. (Surprisingly the 3.5GHz for the cpu is already problematic due to a particular 256bit command set that needs large amounts of power.)
Stepping up the clock is called boosting the clock in the engineering world. It has nothing to do with "This thing runs at x GHz but we can boost x by y%".

Well Mark Cerny own words are that variable frequency = continuous boost. If you look at the presentation you even see the graphs in the background doing the boost , UP and DOWN constantly. But the gpu will not be constant at 2.23ghz, it will reach that output if it needs on a given moment, but by underclocking the cpu. This means Gpu clock may be boosting from 1,8 to 2.23ghz. He didn't want to give base clock speed , but i can assure it exists. If we use early leaks, base clock should be around 2ghz (9tflops).

We have to wait and see how this approach is played out. AMD smart Shift technology can indeed be something. It doesn't convince me yet, I see stability problems everywhere. And we have yet to see the cooling solution, it must be a robust one.

Source



LudicrousSpeed said:
He didn’t say they could run at those frequencies permanently. If they could, why would they even have any variance? He literally said he’d expect both to run there most of the time, definitely not permanently.

I mean right in your post is a contradiction. “It can run there permanently, but expect these drops!”

Are you implying that the system COULD run there permanently, even though it won’t? If that’s your point, who cares? It won’t run there permanently.

Because the games won't need that frequency all the time and also there is CPU and GPU, so it can't keep both 100% all the time. But it certainly can keep any of those at 100% with the other not at it.

Watch the video again or wait for games to launch.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

There is something about the PS5 audio solution that just hit me, and it actually could make sense to Sony's approach.
Is not that Tempest audio will change gaming experience. Is about not paying licensing fees and universal reception. Since 4k became a new standard, audio decoders needed to evolve into different solutions for a deeper immersion, each requiring a different setup and with it licenses.

Sony wants to provide a great experience without limiting it to certified devices. Obviously quality will vary from setup to setup.
You are going to get the best based on the speaker specifications you have (tv speakers, soundbar, full audio system, etc)

This can provide Sony control over a license fee that they do not need. It will be dumb and stupid to pay a license to dolby or others if you have Tempest. That is why the tempest strategy is an universal one. Is about reaching and cutting costs.

Say you have an XBOX SX, with dolby support, but you don't have a dolby sound system, you are stuck with standard audio transcoding through your tv speakers. In Viceversa, lets say you have a dolby audio system but your XBOX sx doesn't support it. Then again you're stuck with Standard transcoding. Tempest 3d Audio wants to change that and deliver the best transcoding possible using your available speakers.

The take into this is that is not going to be that much better that what is already available. It will be a virtual solution for cheap/integrated speakers. This is not going to convert your tv speakers into a 1000 watts sound system, but it will send better audio modulation and flexibility to them.

I may be (will be) wrong on this, so feel free to correct me, because audio is not my stronghold.

Reference
https://wccftech.com/dolby-atmos-can-also-support-hundreds-of-objects-like-ps5s-tempest-says-dolby/

Last edited by alexxonne - on 21 March 2020

DonFerrari said:
LudicrousSpeed said:
He didn’t say they could run at those frequencies permanently. If they could, why would they even have any variance? He literally said he’d expect both to run there most of the time, definitely not permanently.

I mean right in your post is a contradiction. “It can run there permanently, but expect these drops!”

Are you implying that the system COULD run there permanently, even though it won’t? If that’s your point, who cares? It won’t run there permanently.

Because the games won't need that frequency all the time and also there is CPU and GPU, so it can't keep both 100% all the time. But it certainly can keep any of those at 100% with the other not at it.

Watch the video again or wait for games to launch.

You’re saying the same things we are, not sure why you’re trying to argue lol. Yes, we know it can’t keep both at max all the time and has to throttle down one or the other to increase performance of the other. Also you don’t know how long either one can stay at 100%. Follow your own advice and wait for the games to launch.



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Pemalite said:

Hynad said:

That’s not what Cerny said.

So Cerny stated that when the CPU, GPU, I/O and all the other components are 100% pegged that it can sustain boost clocks indefinitely?

Then why have the boost clocks at all and why not just claim them as base clocks? AFAIK Cerny never made that claim.

The way I understand it, they’ve come up with this solution to facilitate proper cooling of the PS5 and keep it quiet. The console’s CPU and GPU run continuously in “boost mode” with the same electrical power no matter what. But the frequency will throttle down when a “worst case scenario game” feeds the system. They designed their cooling solution based on a fixed electrical consumption budget, instead of fixed frequencies. This down throttle will happen when power required goes beyond the budget. Of which Cerny says a reduction of 10% in power consumption results in a couple % reduction in frequency. All so the console doesn’t overheat and becomes loud.

He also mentioned that he expects down-clocking to be pretty minor and that the console will be at 10.3TF most of the time.

Last edited by Hynad - on 21 March 2020

Hynad said:
Pemalite said:

So Cerny stated that when the CPU, GPU, I/O and all the other components are 100% pegged that it can sustain boost clocks indefinitely?

Then why have the boost clocks at all and why not just claim them as base clocks? AFAIK Cerny never made that claim.

The way I understand it, they’ve come up with this solution to facilitate proper cooling of the PS5 and keep it quiet. The console’s CPU and GPU run continuously in “boost mode” with the same electrical power no matter what. But the frequency will throttle down when a “worst case scenario game” feeds the system. They designed their cooling solution based on a fixed electrical consumption budget, instead of fixed frequencies. This down throttle will happen when power required goes beyond the budget. Of which Cerny says a reduction of 10% in power consumption results in a couple % reduction in frequency.

He also mentioned that he expects down-clocking to be pretty minor and that the console will be at 10.3TF most of the time.

Important to reinforce that is 10% reduction on power consumption not on performance.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Shadow1980 said:
trunkswd said:

I'm looking forward to seeing gameplay of games running on the Xbox Series X and PS5. I am most excited to see what 343 Industries can do with Halo Infinite.

Same. I like that we're getting a more classic art style and music style for Halo, but we've seen no gameplay. We did have an engine demo/teaser trailer and the opening cinematic, but I imagine that's probably WIP stuff. I hope MS does their big streaming event for the XSX soon, complete with Halo Infinite gameplay. I hope 343 Industries has moved the fundamentals of the core mechanics closer to old-school Halo (mainly in the movement) while finding new ways to evolve combat. In particular, I really want a return to the wider, more open level design of the first game, with more opportunities for exploration. In fact, I want them to go a step further, maybe moving closer towards the type of level design we saw in games like Dragon Age and the original Crysis.

What better way to evolve combat than using the mechanics from the first?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Halo Infinite will not take full advantage of Series X. People forget it's also on Xbox One.



Bite my shiny metal cockpit!

Pemalite said:

BraLoD said:
I still can't believe both stuck with those RAMs.
MS got fast and slow mixed, Sony got unified average. Both only 16Gb.
This seriously sucks.

Me and CGI called it years ago.

Our original predictions were... 16GB of Ram... Yet we still had people thinking 128GB or more. Was pretty funny at the time!

JRPGfan said:

ram was used to "store" data you needed quick access too, you couldnt affoard to wait on your slow mechanical hard drive to get.

Ram is still used to "store" data that is needed for quick access... Because we still cannot afford to wait on a slow SSD for data.

Ram is 500GB/s or more. SSD's are 1/10th of that.

JRPGfan said:

Thats no longer a issue, with how quick (esp sony's) SSD is.
This drastically reduces the amount of actual ram needed, when you run games.

It's still an issue, it's just much less of an issue.
You are right it should reduce the need for more RAM, but it doesn't remove the need for it entirely.

We will be RAM starved this generation, especially later on in the console cycle.

JRPGfan said:


It might even effect sizes of games, where they might have duplicates of data,
thats mixed in with differnt parts, so they "could" be loaded like this into ram.
Stuff like that will be gone with next gen.

They didn't duplicate data on a mechanical disk, that occurred with optical disks due to their much lower seek times.

JRPGfan said:


These SSD are almost like virtual ram in themselves, you just go directly to the SSD to load stuff, isntead of first loading it into your ram.

^ atleast I think thats what cerny was saying.

Not really. It's just "Virtual Memory". - Which is a technology that has existed for the last 30 years in various forms. Fuck. Even the Original Xbox used it!




Unfortunately, the relative cost of RAM is higher now than it was up until a few years ago.  Taking these systems up to 24gb would make a noticeable difference in production costs.  So, they've had to figure out how to make do with less (than we might prefer).