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Forums - General Discussion - Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

LurkerJ said:

It doesn't really matter if naturally immunity works.

It's good to know from a scientific point of view, as that could indicate that we are getting to the end of the pandemic (combined with knowing how the virus is currently spreading.)

But it's not helpful from a public policy point of view. It's easier to give people the vaccine, than it is to test them for immunity. Getting vaccinated on the whole benefits society.

Oh wow, way to get back at someone begging for a more nuanced approached to vaccinations..... I get a meme as a response lol

In the UK, and most European countries, testing has been available and free since the start of the pandemic (poor Americans, got a right wing president posing as a leftie). Many here know their previous infection status and absolutely can skip the vaccines knowing they're adequately protected, moreover, I specifically mentioned the NHS staff (aka healthcare providers who fall under the scientific community) because they have provided with home testing kits since 2020 and have been offered free blood tests to check for anti-bodies, I doubt any of the 10% refusing the vaccines don't know if they had or had not had the infection by now; in fact, doctors speaking publicly against it have all had the virus in the past, threatening with "get vaccinated or get sacked regardless of your immunity status" is revolting and doesn't particularly "follow the science". 

It doesn't matter if you're naturally smart, or healthy, or athletic, or useful, etc. Everyone needs to be forced to go to preschool, elementary school, high school, college, and university.

More schooling = better for everyone.

Just ask Elon Musk. Or don't...



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It does look like we're past the peak, hospitalizations are leveling off.



I still have little trust in the safety of the schools. My youngest's class was split and spread out over other classes to put up the kids now the teacher is home sick with Covid-19. Brilliant, how is that chohort strategy working out...

Absenteism at the school is 19%, I thought it would be higher. Dunno if that's good or bad....

Next week I think they can go back, but keeping an eye on what's happening.

Oh just heard from my wife, kids that do asynchronous learning at home, because of Covid or precaution, are not count towards absenteism.... So that 19% is just those too sick to do anything? WTF, trust level -100.

Some pre-schools are far beyond the 30% absenteism btw and still open. Even the we close at 30% was a lie.

Maybe they think anger boosts your immunity? Cause Doug Ford and his bullshit are definitely achieving that. FUCKING TABARNAKLES.

Meanwhile day 2 of teacher absence, our youngest still hasn't got any work or attention from asynchronous learning. 10:30 AM already, nothing. One kid left behind... I guess better than shoved into another class just to sit out the day catching Omicron.

Last edited by SvennoJ - on 25 January 2022

SvennoJ said:

You should have natural immunity to the flu and cold virus as well by now, why do we still have the flu shot. Why am I still getting a cold.

Natural immunity helps, but is not enough to stop the spread of an ever mutating corona virus. Yearly updated vaccines, like the flu shot, will be needed to keep Covid-19 cases manageable. There is no end to Covid-19. It's here to stay and with vaccines we can reduce it to a severe cold instead of hospitalization and ICU.

I do have natural immunity to the flu and the cold virus, getting a cold isn't a sign of lack of immunity, it's a sign of immunity working well..

Few decades from now, when children of today become adults of the future, they'll do very well against covid19 because they've exposed to it the way we, older generations, were exposed to common cold and flus. The numbers tell us those who previously had the infection are as equally, if not better protected, against covid19 than those who were triple vaccinated, despite how many different variants are already out there! 



the-pi-guy said:

>I get a meme as a response

It's a good meme.

>testing has been available and free 

There are a few different kinds of tests. A few of which are not used for determining whether someone has immunity. The most common test in most places is the PCR test, which doesn't test for antibodies. It tests for the actual presence of the virus. It doesn't tell you if you have immunity. 

>"get vaccinated or get sacked regardless of your immunity status" is revolting 

I don't support it, but something needs to be done to fight against the misinformation, and people who are taking actions due to misinformation.

PCR tests have almost 100% specificity, if you're symptomatic, tested positive, cleared the infection, your immunity against the virus is equal if not better than those who had triple vaccination and no prior infections. It absolutely tells you that you have immunity smh 

How are you fighting against misinformation by totally setting aside logic and forcing healthcare professionals including doctors to get the vaccine or risk losing their jobs despite the ample evidence presented by the CDC no less? 



LurkerJ said:
the-pi-guy said:

>I get a meme as a response

It's a good meme.

>testing has been available and free 

There are a few different kinds of tests. A few of which are not used for determining whether someone has immunity. The most common test in most places is the PCR test, which doesn't test for antibodies. It tests for the actual presence of the virus. It doesn't tell you if you have immunity. 

>"get vaccinated or get sacked regardless of your immunity status" is revolting 

I don't support it, but something needs to be done to fight against the misinformation, and people who are taking actions due to misinformation.

PCR tests have almost 100% specificity, if you're symptomatic, tested positive, cleared the infection, your immunity against the virus is equal if not better than those who had triple vaccination and no prior infections. It absolutely tells you that you have immunity smh 

How are you fighting against misinformation by totally setting aside logic and forcing healthcare professionals including doctors to get the vaccine or risk losing their jobs despite the ample evidence presented by the CDC no less? 

The argument here is that we can't give everyone anti body tests, not even PCR tests anymore (only for essential workers) Nor does it tell you how well you are protected. A vaccine is a standard dose, time stamped, easily tracked, can't lie about having it or not. Sure you could have tested positive for Covid in the past, but that still doesn't tell how well your immune system has been trained by the prior infection or what strain you had.

One thing we can track is the percentage of people ending up hospitalized without vaccines vs those who were prior vaccinated. The majority of people in the hospital were not vaccinated. Hence pushing vaccines is what will help drive hospitalizations down.

What is better, trying your luck by catching Omicron or get vaccinated? A sore arm for 2 days or maybe 3 weeks in bed to gain immunity.

The problem is people. They'll lie, bend the truth, assume the wrong thing, take their chances etc.
You don't protect society on good faith, sad but reality.



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the-pi-guy said:
LurkerJ said:

PCR tests have almost 100% specificity, if you're symptomatic, tested positive, cleared the infection, your immunity against the virus is equal if not better than those who had triple vaccination and no prior infections. It absolutely tells you that you have immunity smh 

How are you fighting against misinformation by totally setting aside logic and forcing healthcare professionals including doctors to get the vaccine or risk losing their jobs despite the ample evidence presented by the CDC no less? 

PCR tests for genetic material for the virus. You will test positive before you develop immunity. It also doesn't tell you if you have immunity from previous infections. 

You have 3 different qualifying statements in your attempt to correct me. It seems to be pretty clear to you, that the PCR tests do not detect immunity. And really you are missing a fourth qualifier which is how long it's been since you've gotten sick.

You can assume you have some amount of immunity after the PCR test is positive and in the few months after you get better from being sick. 

>your immunity against the virus is equal if not better than those who had triple vaccination and no prior infections

It's important to keep in mind this is not a guarantee, it's an average.

How are you fighting against misinformation by totally setting aside logic and forcing healthcare professionals including doctors to get the vaccine or risk losing their jobs despite the ample evidence presented by the CDC no less? 

It's not setting aside logic. It's about understanding that public policy has to be more defensive than science calls for.

Very few healthcare professionals are losing their jobs. Frankly if they can't take a simple vaccine to better ensure protection for their patients, they shouldn't be in the medical field in the first place. Doctors that can't be bothered to wash their hands shouldn't be doctors. Doctors that can't be bothered to wear protective equipment while performing surgery, shouldn't be allowed to be surgeons.

Positive PCR and previous infections are positive markers for immunity, whether antibodies can be or can not be detected in the blood, it's irrelevant. Immunity doesn't only last for few months, your immune system response to covid19 can't be reduced to the level of the antibodies in the blood. Repeated infections isn't lack of immunity either. 

I am not sure what you're talking about when you say very few healthcare professionals are losing their jobs, it's 10% of the NHS staff who haven't had the vaccine yet, the NHS is the largest employer in the Europe, I don't care to crunch the numbers for someone who is running wild with false equivalences. Not following anti-septic measures during a surgery isn't similar to a doctor who just looked at the evidence and data and says "I just had covid19, the numbers actually tell me that I am just as protected and just as less likely to pass the infection as anyone who the vaccine 3 times, sweet!". Don't be intentionally silly just to win an argument, it's not a good colour. 



SvennoJ said:
LurkerJ said:

PCR tests have almost 100% specificity, if you're symptomatic, tested positive, cleared the infection, your immunity against the virus is equal if not better than those who had triple vaccination and no prior infections. It absolutely tells you that you have immunity smh 

How are you fighting against misinformation by totally setting aside logic and forcing healthcare professionals including doctors to get the vaccine or risk losing their jobs despite the ample evidence presented by the CDC no less? 



What is better, trying your luck by catching Omicron or get vaccinated? A sore arm for 2 days or maybe 3 weeks in bed to gain immunity.

I think I am done with this back and forth. The point these doctors are raising is that it is time to have a more nuanced approach to vaccines and vaccination as this is not a black and white issue, basically not letting baseless major policies go unchallenged.

In what world did I, or any of the healthcare workers, suggest getting the infection with no prior exposure to the virus or the vaccines is a good idea? 



LurkerJ said:
SvennoJ said:



What is better, trying your luck by catching Omicron or get vaccinated? A sore arm for 2 days or maybe 3 weeks in bed to gain immunity.

I think I am done with this back and forth. The point these doctors are raising is that it is time to have a more nuanced approach to vaccines and vaccination as this is not a black and white issue, basically not letting baseless major policies go unchallenged.

In what world did I, or any of the healthcare workers, suggest getting the infection with no prior exposure to the virus or the vaccines is a good idea? 

Where did I say you suggested that. The problem is, there are plenty people that think that way. And a bunch of them end up in the hospital.

Doctors are not policy makers. Policy has to be black and white because people will exploit any grey area as they see fit. It's a continuous struggle with every rule society lives by. Atm it's not a smart idea to fuel the anti vax agenda, as this will be used to get around the huge burden of getting the vaccine.

Anyway, what strain of covid protects against which other strains. Is that data known? There have been plenty people that got re-infected and not survived it a second time. There have been people infected with multiple strains. Just as a vaccine is no guarantee, a prior infection isn't either. Both combined is still better than just immunity from infection.

A more nuanced approach is certainly possible in the future, like the voluntary flu-shot. We're not there yet. It's premature to add excuses for not getting vaccinated. For now, it's the best we have to keep hospitals running and hopefully open them up to elective surgeries again. As well as opening up society again.



So... BA.2. Not a 'new Omicron subvariant' as some have called it but more like a shier sister that also came from South Africa and was first detected in November.

There are suggestions if might be more contagious than BA.1, maybe 50% more according to Danish data. This comes as a surprise since it's antigenically very similar to BA.1 if not *less* able to evade antibodies. This would suggest something else is going on. Perhaps it was always in the background, and our singular focus on SGTF to detect Omicron might have allowed it to remain under the radar. Or perhaps the ORF1a mutations that are unique to BA.2 make it fitter instead.

On the other hand, it doesn't seem to be more or less virulent than the other Omicron strain according to Danish data. A look at India and the Philippines also suggests there isn't anything unusual going on. And I would expect BA.1-infected people to have near-total immunity to it, especially the ones who were also vaccinated, same with protection against severe disease from vaccines only.

Can it cause another wave in places that are past 'standard' Omicron? I doubt it. BA.1 is so contagious already that there wouldn't be more than a few percent of people vulnerable left by the time it becomes dominant unless third-dose protection wanes significantly between now and then.



 

 

 

 

 

LurkerJ said:
SvennoJ said:

What is better, trying your luck by catching Omicron or get vaccinated? A sore arm for 2 days or maybe 3 weeks in bed to gain immunity.

I think I am done with this back and forth. The point these doctors are raising is that it is time to have a more nuanced approach to vaccines and vaccination as this is not a black and white issue, basically not letting baseless major policies go unchallenged.

In what world did I, or any of the healthcare workers, suggest getting the infection with no prior exposure to the virus or the vaccines is a good idea? 

Not sure how you're not for mandatory vax by now.

We all know that going to school, most importantly, college and university, always works out. Everybody get's a well paid cushy job in whatever career they've been trained for. Nobody ends up unemployable and in debt.

We all know that practicing, especially for sports, always works out. As long as you practice and push yourself, you'll always be successful upon your next attempt. Nobody who practices for something, ever ends up failing.

We all know the more you have, especially unearned, the better off you'll be. As long as you have more than you know what to do with, you'll be nothing but happy and healthy. Nobody who's ever had too much, has ended up unhappy and miserable.

It's the 21st century. We've got it all figured out. Wheeling over walking. What benefit could walking have provided that sitting in motion doesn't?