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Forums - General Discussion - Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

Farsala said:

Over 60% of COVID patients denied hospitalization

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20210820_14/

COVID patient in Tokyo rejected by 120 hospitals

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20210810_10/

I gotta say. For how much Japan's government charges me for healthcare every month, it doesn't portray a lot of confidence. In the US, despite the high costs of not having health insurance, it wouldn't ever get this bad, especially in my state.

I get my 2nd jab tomorrow, months behind other developed countries, but at least it will be done.

Not everywhere in the USA has it better than Japan.

You get a heart attack, or get into a car crash, you need a bed (not be told, wait a day or two, in the ambulance for a spot to clear up).
Some states have negative beds (ei. more beds used than they rightfully have space for).
You have hospitals with  hallways / cafeteria's made into make-shift area's for extra beds in hospitals.

Case in point: Alabama has no ICU beds (you need immediate care? tuff sh*t, you might die, cuz of lack of beds atm)
Florida isnt far from being like that either.
Texas has issues too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_zVKeEvpRg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH8bdWUTrfI

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 23 August 2021

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Barozi said:

Doubt I've seen this posted here but I found a nice research paper about excess deaths in many countries. There's also a nice table included.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/69336

Shame there's no data for Turkey as I expect that to be heavily undertracked. Many East European, Central Asian and Latin American countries seem to have much higher excess deaths than their official Covid data would lead you to believe. But also countries like Egypt (13 times higher excess deaths than reported Covid deaths) and South Africa (almost 3 times more) show quite a discrepancy.

Mmm. Looking at: Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia, and Mexico. As many of you might know, these were the regions of the former Aztec and Inca civilizations and even today the countries with the highest level of Native American ancestry.

Past respiratory epidemics have also shown a disproportionally high mortality rate in Latin America. Then there's this.

It stands to reason to speculate Native American populations might be, even today, more genetically vulnerable to respiratory illness than others, perhaps a consequence of being isolated from coronaviruses, influenza, etc. for over ten thousand years.

Or it might be just a coincidence because these countries didn't have enough ICU beds. I know Peru didn't: just 1,800 in the entire country. By my rough estimates, it would have needed seven times as much if the two waves infected ~ 40% of the population each.



 

 

 

 

 

My confidence in back to school is pretty much gone :/ There won't be any social distancing on the bus or is class rooms or in school. Just masks. Doubt they actually did anything about ventilation.

Meanwhile
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/david-fisman-resignation-covid-science-table-ontario-1.6149961

One of Ontario's most vocal epidemiologists has resigned from the province's COVID-19 Science Advisory Table, alleging the group has delayed publication of its pandemic projections for the fall due to political interference — a charge the table has denied.

"I find myself increasingly uncomfortable with the degree to which political considerations appear to be driving outputs from the tables, or at least the degree to which these outputs are shared in a transparent manner with the public," he wrote.

No idea what to do anymore. School starts Sept 6, (maybe). Cases have just begun to climb exponentially again. And the fall fair is allowed to go on just before school starts. Why not add a super spreader event to set off the school year. But hey, there's always a positive spin "Ontario logs fewer than 500 new COVID-19 cases for first time in five days" yeah those are the counts of the Sunday tests... The count from Friday was 722, couple weeks ago we were almost under 100, now it looks like we're going after our April record of nearly 4500 cases daily.



JRPGfan said:
Farsala said:

Over 60% of COVID patients denied hospitalization

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20210820_14/

COVID patient in Tokyo rejected by 120 hospitals

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20210810_10/

I gotta say. For how much Japan's government charges me for healthcare every month, it doesn't portray a lot of confidence. In the US, despite the high costs of not having health insurance, it wouldn't ever get this bad, especially in my state.

I get my 2nd jab tomorrow, months behind other developed countries, but at least it will be done.

Not everywhere in the USA has it better than Japan.

You get a heart attack, or get into a car crash, you need a bed (not be told, wait a day or two, in the ambulance for a spot to clear up).
Some states have negative beds (ei. more beds used than they rightfully have space for).
You have hospitals with  hallways / cafeteria's made into make-shift area's for extra beds in hospitals.

Case in point: Alabama has no ICU beds (you need immediate care? tuff sh*t, you might die, cuz of lack of beds atm)
Florida isnt far from being like that either.
Texas has issues too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_zVKeEvpRg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH8bdWUTrfI

Big difference is that US hospitals will still treat you, even without beds. Japanese hospitals apparently will reject you and just let you die.



Farsala said:
JRPGfan said:

Not everywhere in the USA has it better than Japan.

You get a heart attack, or get into a car crash, you need a bed (not be told, wait a day or two, in the ambulance for a spot to clear up).
Some states have negative beds (ei. more beds used than they rightfully have space for).
You have hospitals with  hallways / cafeteria's made into make-shift area's for extra beds in hospitals.

Case in point: Alabama has no ICU beds (you need immediate care? tuff sh*t, you might die, cuz of lack of beds atm)
Florida isnt far from being like that either.
Texas has issues too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_zVKeEvpRg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH8bdWUTrfI

Big difference is that US hospitals will still treat you, even without beds. Japanese hospitals apparently will reject you and just let you die.

If you have to wait 24-48 hours, in a que, to get a bed.... you are effectively not being treated (as needed).
Its wishfull thinking, that "hospitals will still treat you", when your not able to get a spot, and that this cant result in people dieing while waiting in que.

Would you rather be told :
"we dont have room, cant treat you, go somewhere else (try another hospital)"  (some japanese hospital)
or
"please be patient (24-48hours), if your still alive, when a spot clears up, we will treat you"  (hospitals in alabama)

Its crappy service either way.

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 25 August 2021

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JRPGfan said:
Farsala said:

Big difference is that US hospitals will still treat you, even without beds. Japanese hospitals apparently will reject you and just let you die.

If you have to wait 24-48 hours, in a que, to get a bed.... you are effectively not being treated (as needed).
Its wishfull thinking, that "hospitals will still treat you", when your not able to get a spot, and that this cant result in people dieing while waiting in que.

Would you rather be told :
"we dont have room, cant treat you, go somewhere else (try another hospital)"  (some japanese hospital)
or
"please be patient (24-48hours), if your still alive, when a spot clears up, we will treat you"  (hospitals in alabama)

Its crappy service either way.

Typically emergency rooms will still have space for you, even if they have to kick you to a hallway. It isn't the best but if it is an actual emergency you at least won't die within the hour.

The real situation is-

Would you rather be told:

"we don't have room, can't treat you, wait at home or try another hospital (24-48 hours)" (typical Tokyo Hospital) to which the other Tokyo hospital will say the same thing

or

*at the hospital near healthcare professionals "we treated anything dire, but for anything else please be patient (24-48hours), if your still alive, when a spot clears up, we will treat you completely" (typical hospital in Alabama)

It is not a particularly new thing with Covid-19 for Japan either. Here is a survey from 2007.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/617036

Sad highlights include: "At least 3.5 percent of cases in serious condition were rejected three times or more by hospitals"

"In the worst case, a woman in her 70s who had trouble breathing was rejected 49 times in Tokyo"

"In December, an 89-year-old woman died after an ambulance crew spent two hours trying 30 hospitals before finding one that would accept her for treatment."

I also realized why this wouldn't happen in the US, because it is literally illegal. In emergency situations, time is of the essence.

And again I have to emphasize, that I am required to pay a ton of money for this level of healthcare. I also think it is funny that we are comparing Tokyo to Alabama. Japan should never sink that low.



For more information on how a typical US hospital operates, I found this a good read.

https://healthcare.utah.edu/the-scope/shows.php?shows=0_cbfq3njz

also

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/hospital-icu-beds-are-running-out-what-happens-if-you-have-a-medical-emergency-232318009.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJVb8iTfnxiLkghKLgg_s0ykqFiuAMEPyVhcDZfxAwN5NR-acxc51WnoITBNl3Yg03n7s4IN1jKuAHZ_RKM0zhO_NNc3i84ms1DczJoZJ_kqmQfSKsO9wr89YlNPd_ToZG3iO-EuhtoF-lPh6i-XKyng20cxyd2yTFznjtOm5Dp2

Full hospitals definitely make things more difficult, but you will get treatment for any emergency.



SvennoJ said:

People here are acting like the pandemic is over, while it's as high as ever. Our 4th wave is going up as quickly as in other parts of the world, yet people are planning large events again, gathering in large groups, not a mask to be seen. (Still mandatory in shops) We're doomed, the attention span just isn't there to get rid of the pandemic.

Think of trying to end covid-19 like trying to end racism. The media will tell you exactly how that's going to work out. I've also noticed, that other locals around here, are finally starting to notice the media no longer talks about deaths at all, only cases, and they understand why. The news here in ON has been doing a pretty terrible job of keeping the people scared for quite some time. Heck it was a joke to begin with, with how blatantly the reporters weren't even following any of the rules or guidelines and making up ridiculous excuses. Though many didn't seem to pick up on that somehow.

There's a reason why there are flu shots and not 'cold' shots. Trying to properly and completely immunize everyone from coronavirus would be a nightmarish task and isn't even close to worth it for many reasons, and that unfortunately includes the covid-19 strains. The flu was doable though.

It's never going away, at least not anytime in the foreseeable future. People either learn to live with it and the consequences, or humanity lives in lockdown mode for decades. It should be clear to most that people can't and/or won't live like that for long. Not in a free society anyway.

That's likely not what you want to hear, but the sooner people realize this, the sooner they can better plan to protect themselves if more necessary, as well as the system as a whole, within reason of course. The problem with reason now, is things were pushed much to far, so now there's considerable push back by the people. Cause and effect. The people themselves aren't near as much to blame as the professionals and leaders who got us here.



EricHiggin said:
SvennoJ said:

People here are acting like the pandemic is over, while it's as high as ever. Our 4th wave is going up as quickly as in other parts of the world, yet people are planning large events again, gathering in large groups, not a mask to be seen. (Still mandatory in shops) We're doomed, the attention span just isn't there to get rid of the pandemic.

Think of trying to end covid-19 like trying to end racism. The media will tell you exactly how that's going to work out. I've also noticed, that other locals around here, are finally starting to notice the media no longer talks about deaths at all, only cases, and they understand why. The news here in ON has been doing a pretty terrible job of keeping the people scared for quite some time. Heck it was a joke to begin with, with how blatantly the reporters weren't even following any of the rules or guidelines and making up ridiculous excuses. Though many didn't seem to pick up on that somehow.

There's a reason why there are flu shots and not 'cold' shots. Trying to properly and completely immunize everyone from coronavirus would be a nightmarish task and isn't even close to worth it for many reasons, and that unfortunately includes the covid-19 strains. The flu was doable though.

It's never going away, at least not anytime in the foreseeable future. People either learn to live with it and the consequences, or humanity lives in lockdown mode for decades. It should be clear to most that people can't and/or won't live like that for long. Not in a free society anyway.

That's likely not what you want to hear, but the sooner people realize this, the sooner they can better plan to protect themselves if more necessary, as well as the system as a whole, within reason of course. The problem with reason now, is things were pushed much to far, so now there's considerable push back by the people. Cause and effect. The people themselves aren't near as much to blame as the professionals and leaders who got us here.

USA: had 1287 deaths due to covid yesterday (~180,000 new cases).   Both cases and deaths are on a upward trend.
Highest case count (active) was 9million, back in jan 2021. Now its close to 7.8m (active) cases of corona.

Canada: had 6 deaths due to covid yesterday (~3000 new daily cases).
Canada currently has 23,000 active cases of corona virus. The issue is the USA has like 400 times as much cases of sick, as canada does atm.


Theres degree's of "learn to live with it".

Canada's outlook is much easier to live with, than the one in the US.
1300 pr day, for a year is still like half a million extra deaths pr year.


Canada has done a much better job with vaccinations than the US.
To be fair, something like 90-95% of the sick in hospitals are unvaccinated (or not fully vaccinated).
Maybe with time, this "problem" (US side) solves itself, as it mostly just kills fools that didnt want to get vaccinated.
Eventually it passes though everyone who hasnt gotten infected yet, or vaccinated.

Last edited by JRPGfan - on 26 August 2021

Farsala said:

And again I have to emphasize, that I am required to pay a ton of money for this level of healthcare. I also think it is funny that we are comparing Tokyo to Alabama. Japan should never sink that low.

How much do people in Japan have to pay for their healthcare and how much percent of the medical costs is covered by that?

Here in Germany it is income based. You get 100% coverage (exceptions are very rare) and pay ~8% of their gross income, your employer pays another ~8% of your gross income. Your unemployed spouse and children are also 100% covered... if some of them work, they also pay ~8% of their gross income and their employer pays another ~8% of their gross income.

So if a single person or a family has a gross income of €30,000 (~3.9M yen) in total per year, you have to pay around €2,400 (~310,000 yen) per year for 50% coverage, your employers pay for the other 50% coverage.

If a single person or a family has a gross income of €40,000 (~5.1M yen) in total per year, you have to pay around €3,200 (~415,000 yen) per year for 50% coverage, your employers pay for the other 50% coverage.

If a single person or a family has a gross income of €50,000 (~6.5M yen) in total per year, you have to pay around €4,000 (~518,000 yen) per year for 50% coverage, your employers pay for the other 50% coverage.

If a single person has a gross income of €58,000 (~7.5M yen) or above that per year, you have to pay around €4,500 (~583,000 yen) per year for 50% coverage, your employer pay for the other 50% coverage. It's the upper limit for a single person... also for families, if the family members aren't earning their own income.

Single persons who are privately insured have to pay around €2000 - €5000 for 50% coverage (mostly depending on the age), your employers pay for the other 50% coverage. If you are your own boss, it is double of that for 100% coverage. Additional coverage for family members costs extra.

So if you are single person with a well paid job, private insurance is usually cheaper. If you have family and a minimum wage job, the statuary health insurance is the better deal.