Forums - General Discussion - Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

You concerned yet?

Yes 90 49.18%
 
No, but I will be followi... 50 27.32%
 
No, its being overblown 43 23.50%
 
Total:183

Case in point, teenagers need to stop partying

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/enormous-impact-after-teenage-parties-near-montreal-businesses-shut-to-stem-outbreak-1.5016557

A town south of Montreal has partially shut down—again—all because of the recklessness of a few teenagers, its mayor says. About 50 people have now tested positive for COVID-19 in a new outbreak in the Montéregie region, all of them directly linked to two house parties that happened there this weekend, health authorities say.

Most of the 50 are young, said Montéregie public health spokesperson Chantal Vallée. But the infection has spread past the partygoers, she said. “Some cases are parents, friends or colleagues of these young people,” she said. In the town of Mercier, the owner of a local bakery is now in quarantine, his shop closed since Monday, after one of his young employees caught the virus. "It was a moment of madness, of carelessness, weakness,” said Frederic Dugas, the co-owner of Fantaisie du Blé bakery. He said the employee is usually a good kid, but he slipped up and went to a party in the neighbouring town. He probably didn’t envision the potential consequences.

Employees of at least five businesses in Mercier have now tested positive, including people who work at the town’s IGA grocery store and its McDonald’s, says mayor Lise Michaud. “It’s an enormous impact,” she told CTV News. “We have so many businesses that have had to close their doors.”



It's so frustrating, this pandemic could have been stopped in less than 2 months, yet we're still isolating since early March. The consequences are really starting to show now. My wife took our youngest to the hospital today with breathing difficulties, sleeping problems and panic attacks, likely heightened by allergies and the relentless hot weather. There they said it was mostly due to anxiety, he needs to see his friends. He's been home from school since early March and has only seen his nephew (and his brother of course) since then. He's afraid the virus is going to kill him. (how do you convince an 8 year old he's safe) We never have the news on but the subject does come up and of course he knows about the masks, risks and not being able to go anywhere.

The weather is a big factor, now over 40c with humidex every day, pool is 32c can't get it to cool down, night temps stay above 20c, feels like 30c by 8 am. So he can't go outside (doctor says he needs to stay in air conditioning as much as possible) which only leaves home or grandma's house. Can't invite friends over or send him over since that would be outside of the current 'bubble' limits. (Playing outside would be fine but too hot)

At least the doctor (in full ppe, mask, face shield, gloves, coverall) had a good talk with him and the expert authority got him calmed down. Prescription: lots of popsicles. They get kids like him in all the time now, they need that school interaction back (in a safe way). Mental health has become a serious issue for younger kids. Not sure what to do, the 14 day forecast looks terrible, 32c to 43c for the next 2 weeks. July is going to break all weather records :(



Around the Network
Pemalite said:
JRPGfan said:

Torillian just say it like this : 

Car's kill about 30,000-35,000 every year in the US.

Corona Virus HAS killed 134,000+ in about 4 months.

thats like 4-5 times as many deaths, by corona virus, in about 1/3th the time.
OR potentially ~15 times as much, as Cars do pr year, so far, in the USA.

Difference with Cars is that we do everything in our absolute power to prevent the deaths, billions of dollars into research and infrastructure, people even get "trained" to handle them appropriately.

If some people start getting killed in an unexpected manner while driving in the near future, say because a certain model part has a deadly problem, would the Gov forcibly stop everyone from driving their cars? Maybe just the cars and owners that are directly part of the problem without negatively impacting everyone else? Would the Gov even necessarily need to get involved? Certain drivers in specific cases get treated differently, and can have their vehicles recalled or potentially have their licenses pulled for reckless behavior, so only they and not everyone are negatively impacted going forward.

Cars may kill about 30,000 every year, but what about the flu in comparison, and then there's covid-19. How many death's is too many and what is and isn't worth comparison if every last life counts? Are all lives equal or are some more important and worth more than others?



61k new cases today in the US. Guess were a 2orld leader on what not to do during a pandemic.



EricHiggin said:

If some people start getting killed in an unexpected manner while driving in the near future, say because a certain model part has a deadly problem, would the Gov forcibly stop everyone from driving their cars?

I can only speak to what occurs here... But the answer short answer is yes. - Depending on a myriad of factors, you have risk/hazard assessments performed to ascertain it's extent and take the appropriate course of action.

For example there was a big recall on cars here a few year ago due to an airbag fault discovered in a heap of different car brands... Manufacturers were forced to repair/replace the part.

Sales of some new cars had to get temporarily halted here a few years ago because the materials they were derived from were significantly stronger than older cars... And our Road Crash Rescue tools were unable to handle the new materials until we got new equipment in.

There is allot that goes into the safety of cars, allot of planning and legislative frameworks exist and constantly change.

EricHiggin said:

Maybe just the cars and owners that are directly part of the problem without negatively impacting everyone else? Would the Gov even necessarily need to get involved? Certain drivers in specific cases get treated differently, and can have their vehicles recalled or potentially have their licenses pulled for reckless behavior, so only they and not everyone are negatively impacted going forward.

If there is an intersection which is a known "black spot" (I.E. High road accident counts) then the Government steps in and improves the intersection.

If there is a trend of deaths, then new safety features like seat-belts and airbags get introduced and legislated.

Everyone adheres to the same road rules and legislative safety requirements.

If someone is being stupid, then that individual will get "done by the system" - Everyone has to adhere to the same rule set... And sometimes if people are doing stupid shit consistently in a certain area, there are often infrastructure changes (I.E. Road speed bumps) to reduce those.

I know the angle you are trying to take... I.E. "Freedom" above other peoples health and safety... It just doesn't work, the USA is proving that to the world right now.

EricHiggin said:

Cars may kill about 30,000 every year, but what about the flu in comparison, and then there's covid-19. How many death's is too many and what is and isn't worth comparison if every last life counts? Are all lives equal or are some more important and worth more than others?

It's not just the death counts you need to consider, it's the overall health impact during the short and long term, if a large % of the populations capacity to breathe is impacted for life... Then that becomes a significant burden on society in the long term and thus a greater reliance and cost on the health system and tax payer... The USA already has an insanely expensive and inefficient health system as it is, could you imagine it being worst?

All lives are obviously valued equally.

And it is stupid to put the economy ahead of health and well-being of a countries populace. - The countries who went into total economic lock-down early and defeated the virus are now enjoying their social freedoms and return to full economic activity.

Countries like the United States and Brazil who have systemically failed in containing and controlling the virus through sheer leadership incompetence and neglect are just prolonging the economic and social hurt.




--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:

I can only speak to what occurs here... But the answer short answer is yes. - Depending on a myriad of factors, you have risk/hazard assessments performed to ascertain it's extent and take the appropriate course of action.

For example there was a big recall on cars here a few year ago due to an airbag fault discovered in a heap of different car brands... Manufacturers were forced to repair/replace the part.

Sales of some new cars had to get temporarily halted here a few years ago because the materials they were derived from were significantly stronger than older cars... And our Road Crash Rescue tools were unable to handle the new materials until we got new equipment in.

There is allot that goes into the safety of cars, allot of planning and legislative frameworks exist and constantly change.

Sure, but unless that faulty part is in every single vehicle, you don't force all people to stop driving their vehicles until the vehicles with issues are back to proper form. You single out the specific vehicle models, and the owners of those models have to deal with the inconvenience, not everyone. Unless that is how things are done there, which I don't believe is the case, correct?

Pemalite said:

If there is an intersection which is a known "black spot" (I.E. High road accident counts) then the Government steps in and improves the intersection.

If there is a trend of deaths, then new safety features like seat-belts and airbags get introduced and legislated.

Everyone adheres to the same road rules and legislative safety requirements.

If someone is being stupid, then that individual will get "done by the system" - Everyone has to adhere to the same rule set... And sometimes if people are doing stupid shit consistently in a certain area, there are often infrastructure changes (I.E. Road speed bumps) to reduce those.

I know the angle you are trying to take... I.E. "Freedom" above other peoples health and safety... It just doesn't work, the USA is proving that to the world right now.

Yes, the Gov does get involved at times, but they don't always have to. It's not as clear cut when you're talking about the entire world and all it's different types of medical systems, Gov run or not, but they don't necessarily have to be involved in everything, and yet things work quite well, though never perfect.

I'm not saying freedom or bust. I'm saying somewhat limited freedom is almost always better than as little freedom as possible. You don't kick everyone off the road because some drivers/cars are having deadly issues, just like you don't lock everyone inside when there's some people having deadly health issues. You do your best to take care of those who are having the problems, yet warn everyone else of the dangers and let them decide.

How many people have heard that a certain vehicle had a recent recall for a major problem, yet got killed in an accident by being struck by that same recalled vehicle shortly after? Should they have been given the choice to drive or be a passenger? That may only be just one person in all of human history, but if every last equal life matters, then things needs to change drastically and quickly.

Pemalite said:

It's not just the death counts you need to consider, it's the overall health impact during the short and long term, if a large % of the populations capacity to breathe is impacted for life... Then that becomes a significant burden on society in the long term and thus a greater reliance and cost on the health system and tax payer... The USA already has an insanely expensive and inefficient health system as it is, could you imagine it being worst?

All lives are obviously valued equally.

And it is stupid to put the economy ahead of health and well-being of a countries populace. - The countries who went into total economic lock-down early and defeated the virus are now enjoying their social freedoms and return to full economic activity.

Countries like the United States and Brazil who have systemically failed in containing and controlling the virus through sheer leadership incompetence and neglect are just prolonging the economic and social hurt.

The problem is we can't predict the future worth a damn. The further we look ahead, the more wrong we tend to be. For all we know, what we did to the economy will have worse implications than those directly related to the covid 19 illness itself. Which is why the choice needs to be put in people's hands as much as possible, and not the Gov. If you've screwed yourself or others over which led to negative covid 19 consequences, that's on you for not being a decent citizen. If you choose to remain quarantined, to be extra safe or out of necessity, even if it means a lack of free market income, then that's also your choice as a citizen.


Some countries who didn't do much to stop the spread are also in reasonable shape. Some countries who've done less testing have better looking numbers. Who's undoubtedly doing it right and who's doing it wrong? I don't think there's any answer that can undeniably answer that, long term.



Around the Network
EricHiggin said:

Sure, but unless that faulty part is in every single vehicle, you don't force all people to stop driving their vehicles until the vehicles with issues are back to proper form. You single out the specific vehicle models, and the owners of those models have to deal with the inconvenience, not everyone. Unless that is how things are done there, which I don't believe is the case, correct?

All vehicles are never taken off the road at the same time... Even when we had that vehicle flaw in dozens of vehicle models a few years ago, the replacements occurred over a period of months.

If all vehicles are subject to the same flaw, then you need to get in touch with various outlets to book a time for that repair/replacement to occur, it's a logistics thing... The issue gets resolved over a period of time, not all at once.

Those who do not need to drive their vehicles, should minimize such use as much as practicable.

The same thing occurs with COVID, everyone needs to stay at home, unless you are an essential worker.

EricHiggin said:

Yes, the Gov does get involved at times, but they don't always have to. It's not as clear cut when you're talking about the entire world and all it's different types of medical systems, Gov run or not, but they don't necessarily have to be involved in everything, and yet things work quite well, though never perfect.

If you have a competent government, they should get involved.

EricHiggin said:

I'm not saying freedom or bust. I'm saying somewhat limited freedom is almost always better than as little freedom as possible. You don't kick everyone off the road because some drivers/cars are having deadly issues, just like you don't lock everyone inside when there's some people having deadly health issues. You do your best to take care of those who are having the problems, yet warn everyone else of the dangers and let them decide.

I am free to go to the pub.
I am free to go to the sauna.
I am free to go to the gym.
I am free to go to work.

Why? I gave up some freedom for a few weeks, went into lockdown and only did the "essentials".

And now I have a ton of freedom, almost like the Virus doesn't exist. (Because it doesn't here.)

What you are saying is good in theory... But it hasn't worked. The United States has failed. It's the laughing stock of the world in how not to handle a pandemic.

EricHiggin said:

How many people have heard that a certain vehicle had a recent recall for a major problem, yet got killed in an accident by being struck by that same recalled vehicle shortly after? Should they have been given the choice to drive or be a passenger? That may only be just one person in all of human history, but if every last equal life matters, then things needs to change drastically and quickly.

It was advertised in News Papers, Social Media, Radio, Television, Bill-boards and more.
It was everywhere.

If there is a major problem, the manufacturers of said vehicles have an obligation to get in touch and inform their customers of their rights and obligations in handling the "warranty issue". - Australia has some of the best warranty processes in the world.

Every life matters, this isn't even up for debate, I am a first responder... Anyone who downplays even a single life lost is not a decent individual in my eyes.

EricHiggin said:

The problem is we can't predict the future worth a damn. The further we look ahead, the more wrong we tend to be. For all we know, what we did to the economy will have worse implications than those directly related to the covid 19 illness itself. Which is why the choice needs to be put in people's hands as much as possible, and not the Gov. If you've screwed yourself or others over which led to negative covid 19 consequences, that's on you for not being a decent citizen. If you choose to remain quarantined, to be extra safe or out of necessity, even if it means a lack of free market income, then that's also your choice as a citizen.

False. We have a representational democracy. - We elect officials to make the difficult choices on our behalf, using the most up to date, informed and accurate pieces of information backed by science and evidence that fits in with the legislative frameworks that have already been established.

The United States economy has already been impacted... And due to the rapid spread of COVID in the United States will mean that the economic impact will be a prolonged one, longer than ours.
We won, we beat the virus, the USA is still fumbling over it all, we were right in our approach, the USA was blatantly wrong.

When it comes to Pandemics, people need to be cohesive in their resolve, otherwise nothing will work.
Australia and New Zealand collectively and cohesively went into lockdown early, defeated the virus and returned to economic activity... The USA however, didn't. People went out and demanded "freedom", protested and more. - The virus continues to run rampant killing hundreds of thousands of people...

The United States has done nothing to keep anyone safe and healthy. It's response has been a disgusting joke.. And the issue there starts at the very top.

One person with the virus being selfish and ignorant could infect 100 other people in a day by not conforming to social distancing, hygiene and sanitation and staying home... And those people go on to infect more people.

It's selfish people that are the spreaders of disease, it's the American government not placing appropriate education, signage, alerts and policy that has failed to direct and lead the country that are a big problem.

Elect real leadership, start winning.

And we don't need to "predict the future". - When it comes to things like wild fires, pandemics, hurricanes and more... We have "all hazards approach" to planning which is a framework on how we prevent, prepare, respond and recover from any large incident such as COVID.
I probably have a little more understanding on this kind of thing than most considering I have done a diploma in emergency management.

EricHiggin said:

Some countries who didn't do much to stop the spread are also in reasonable shape. Some countries who've done less testing have better looking numbers. Who's undoubtedly doing it right and who's doing it wrong? I don't think there's any answer that can undeniably answer that, long term.

The countries who have done the right thing are the ones who have defeated the virus. (New Zealand.)

The countries who have done the wrong thing are the ones who are still fumbling and dealing with the virus. (United States.)

Couldn't be anymore black and white than that... Unless you are trying to assert that the United States has been successful?



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

jason1637 said:
61k new cases today in the US. Guess were a 2orld leader on what not to do during a pandemic.

Well, Trump said "America first", after all. Though probably his followers had something different in mind with that...



SpokenTruth said:
Chicho said:

Nobody gets their results "hours later" I know people who had to wait a week and people that waited longer than a week,i think the fastest is like 3 days.

There are a few factors that play into the return on results.  There are currently several tests in use.  The time period for results on them alone vary from several days to just 20 minutes. Then you have to consider where the actual test is performed.  You may have your sample collected at one location but it might get sent to a back logged state lab 200 miles away.  It's the delivery and wait time that contribute to the "longer than a week" time for results rather than the test itself.  Some places can collect your sample and give you a result in under an hour.

vivster said:

Dude, you talk as if the US had any kind of accountability. The narrative isn't silly, it's the US that is silly, where blatant and openly admitted fraud and corruption go unpunished.

Hell yes the US is fudging numbers, not necessarily at a national or state level, but they sure do and will continue to try their best to suppress numbers in any way possible.

Then what level is fudging the numbers and how? You say it's not federal or national level which suggests local level. How and why. Explain both.

Everybody that says they are fudging the numbers fails to provide a valid method on how they are doing it or why they are doing it.  In fact, most people say they are inflating their numbers, not suppressing them.

The People claiming inflated numbers are obviously right wing nut jobs sucking on Trump's teets. There is absolutely no benefit in inflating numbers, but there sure are benefits for suppressing them.

Florida is the best example as there we know of definite attempts to suppress numbers to make the state look better. It's also subtle things at the local level where tests on dead people aren't happening at all because nothing outside of hospitals counts. Some counties just don't want to look bad or just don't want to put in the effort. And when you think about the horrible situation with completely unqualified coroners around the country, there are bound to be overlooked deaths, unintentional or otherwise.

So we know there were attempts to suppress them on purpose, we know some cases are suppressed by incompetence and we know some cases are suppressed by an insufficient counting policy.

Just have a look at the CDC's page for excess deaths. There are tens of thousands of unaccounted deaths.

Last edited by vivster - on 09 July 2020

If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

Sure, but unless that faulty part is in every single vehicle, you don't force all people to stop driving their vehicles until the vehicles with issues are back to proper form. You single out the specific vehicle models, and the owners of those models have to deal with the inconvenience, not everyone. Unless that is how things are done there, which I don't believe is the case, correct?

All vehicles are never taken off the road at the same time... Even when we had that vehicle flaw in dozens of vehicle models a few years ago, the replacements occurred over a period of months.

If all vehicles are subject to the same flaw, then you need to get in touch with various outlets to book a time for that repair/replacement to occur, it's a logistics thing... The issue gets resolved over a period of time, not all at once.

Those who do not need to drive their vehicles, should minimize such use as much as practicable.

The same thing occurs with COVID, everyone needs to stay at home, unless you are an essential worker.

EricHiggin said:

Yes, the Gov does get involved at times, but they don't always have to. It's not as clear cut when you're talking about the entire world and all it's different types of medical systems, Gov run or not, but they don't necessarily have to be involved in everything, and yet things work quite well, though never perfect.

If you have a competent government, they should get involved.

EricHiggin said:

I'm not saying freedom or bust. I'm saying somewhat limited freedom is almost always better than as little freedom as possible. You don't kick everyone off the road because some drivers/cars are having deadly issues, just like you don't lock everyone inside when there's some people having deadly health issues. You do your best to take care of those who are having the problems, yet warn everyone else of the dangers and let them decide.

I am free to go to the pub.
I am free to go to the sauna.
I am free to go to the gym.
I am free to go to work.

Why? I gave up some freedom for a few weeks, went into lockdown and only did the "essentials".

And now I have a ton of freedom, almost like the Virus doesn't exist. (Because it doesn't here.)

What you are saying is good in theory... But it hasn't worked. The United States has failed. It's the laughing stock of the world in how not to handle a pandemic.

EricHiggin said:

How many people have heard that a certain vehicle had a recent recall for a major problem, yet got killed in an accident by being struck by that same recalled vehicle shortly after? Should they have been given the choice to drive or be a passenger? That may only be just one person in all of human history, but if every last equal life matters, then things needs to change drastically and quickly.

It was advertised in News Papers, Social Media, Radio, Television, Bill-boards and more.
It was everywhere.

If there is a major problem, the manufacturers of said vehicles have an obligation to get in touch and inform their customers of their rights and obligations in handling the "warranty issue". - Australia has some of the best warranty processes in the world.

Every life matters, this isn't even up for debate, I am a first responder... Anyone who downplays even a single life lost is not a decent individual in my eyes.

EricHiggin said:

The problem is we can't predict the future worth a damn. The further we look ahead, the more wrong we tend to be. For all we know, what we did to the economy will have worse implications than those directly related to the covid 19 illness itself. Which is why the choice needs to be put in people's hands as much as possible, and not the Gov. If you've screwed yourself or others over which led to negative covid 19 consequences, that's on you for not being a decent citizen. If you choose to remain quarantined, to be extra safe or out of necessity, even if it means a lack of free market income, then that's also your choice as a citizen.

False. We have a representational democracy. - We elect officials to make the difficult choices on our behalf, using the most up to date, informed and accurate pieces of information backed by science and evidence that fits in with the legislative frameworks that have already been established.

The United States economy has already been impacted... And due to the rapid spread of COVID in the United States will mean that the economic impact will be a prolonged one, longer than ours.
We won, we beat the virus, the USA is still fumbling over it all, we were right in our approach, the USA was blatantly wrong.

When it comes to Pandemics, people need to be cohesive in their resolve, otherwise nothing will work.
Australia and New Zealand collectively and cohesively went into lockdown early, defeated the virus and returned to economic activity... The USA however, didn't. People went out and demanded "freedom", protested and more. - The virus continues to run rampant killing hundreds of thousands of people...

The United States has done nothing to keep anyone safe and healthy. It's response has been a disgusting joke.. And the issue there starts at the very top.

One person with the virus being selfish and ignorant could infect 100 other people in a day by not conforming to social distancing, hygiene and sanitation and staying home... And those people go on to infect more people.

It's selfish people that are the spreaders of disease, it's the American government not placing appropriate education, signage, alerts and policy that has failed to direct and lead the country that are a big problem.

Elect real leadership, start winning.

And we don't need to "predict the future". - When it comes to things like wild fires, pandemics, hurricanes and more... We have "all hazards approach" to planning which is a framework on how we prevent, prepare, respond and recover from any large incident such as COVID.
I probably have a little more understanding on this kind of thing than most considering I have done a diploma in emergency management.

EricHiggin said:

Some countries who didn't do much to stop the spread are also in reasonable shape. Some countries who've done less testing have better looking numbers. Who's undoubtedly doing it right and who's doing it wrong? I don't think there's any answer that can undeniably answer that, long term.

The countries who have done the right thing are the ones who have defeated the virus. (New Zealand.)

The countries who have done the wrong thing are the ones who are still fumbling and dealing with the virus. (United States.)

Couldn't be anymore black and white than that... Unless you are trying to assert that the United States has been successful?

Can't agree with you more that this whole pandemic is kept going by selfish people.

It feels like a giant prisoner's dilemma experiment. If everyone (the world) worked together this virus wouldn't have stood a chance. Yet it's too tempting to be the one to grab the 'pot' not realizing you only make it worse in the long run for everyone. From house parties to security guards sleeping with quarantined guests... Humanity has failed this 'test' miserably. We should be very grateful the IFR is 1% or less and hopefully no real damaging long term effects show up.

Even if we defeat the virus now, we still have to deal with importing more cases and people not quarantining for 2 weeks like they are supposed to. The irony is that all those teenagers and 20 somethings are only damaging their own future by making the economic fallout much worse than it could have been. Plus who knows what long term effects the prolonged school closures and haphazard home schooling will have.

Time to head out for groceries again, week 16 since shit hit the fan here.



The situation around COVID is very concerning. When it first became clear that the virus was spreading and becoming a pandemic, my personal thoughts were that the only way this can end is with a vaccine or by letting it run it's course. It's nice to be able to work from home while my wife collects unemployment checks that are worth double what she actually made while working, but that's only short-term. The long-term is what worries me.

The politics around this issue are shitty. If a politician spoke out with similar thoughts to the ones I expressed in my previous paragraph, they would lose supporters. People want to hear that things are going to get better if they stay at home and wear masks, but with how relaxed the restrictions are here (USA), it's only going to curb the spread; the virus isn't disappearing. So the question is, how long, and at what cost, do we keep pretending that staying home is fixing the problem. The goal posts keep moving.

The fact of the matter is that making the virus spread stop completely requires the compliance of just about every single person in our nation (or the world) to take it seriously, and that can't happen when people are at the point of wanting to relax restrictions.

So yeah, be a good citizen, stay at home, wear a mask, etc, etc, but just know that some asshat is offsetting everyone else' efforts by going to the grocery store during peak hours and wearing his mask under his nose, and then coughing on the cashier, who is only doing her job because she's "essential". Just like GameStop is essential.