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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official Thread: The Impeachment of President Donald Trump

JRPGfan said:
Locknuts said:

The difference between a murder case and this is that corruption by US Officials (Biden) is Trump's business. His base believe he was just doing his job. We need someone to testify to his intentions.

The latest data show that Americans have started to reject impeachment:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/public_approval_of_the_impeachment_and_removal_of_president_trump-6957.html

If nobody can testify that Trump wanted Biden investigated not because of corruption but because he is a rival, then Trump looks like the victorious underdog in this whole thing and wins 2020.

Thats mentall gymnastics and you know it.
"he believes he was doing his job" 

No he doesnt.... this is a excuse, that apparently people buy into, because they feel it justifies him breaking laws.
Apparently the american people dont care if a president follows laws or not.

You misquoted me. I don't know Trump's intentions, but 'His base believe he was just doing his job'. That's pretty clear.



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Machiavellian said:
Locknuts said:

It's not his only job obviously, but it's not outside the scope of his duties. How he went about it though...yeah that's dodgy. Not necessarily illegal, but suspicious.

No its not illegal but it sure makes it very hard to believe this was not for personal intent when you use your own lawyer, someone who cannot testify against you if you asked them to do something illegal or whatever.  When that same person represent your personal agenda, how can you make the case that this was for the US.  Like I said, Giuliani whole involvement is what throws out everything when people try to say Trump was acting on the US behast instead of a personal one. No one can rightfully explain Giuliani role in this whole affair because when they do, it only leads one place, to this being a personal agenda by the president.

No one is stupid.  The whole point of using Giuliani instead of official means is because everything is recorded during official means.  You side step those means so that you prevent those documents and records to become publicly available.  From there, Trump can say whatever he wants knowing that records of his operation are under Giuliani hands.

Yeah it was a huge mistake to get Guliani involved. I think he did it because he trusts Guliani and he doesn't trust most of the staff that have been there before his Presidency. It's not a justification though, it makes it look like he just does whatever he wants. But it also jeopardises his case for the reasons you said. It makes it look like he might try to claim Attorney/Client privilege. If he does claim that, we'll know he's guilty. But that's probably illegal in matters of state anyway and he'd be impeached straight away. Lol.

Last edited by Locknuts - on 22 December 2019

Why are all headlines saying Trump is impeached when he's not impeached at all and most likely never will be?



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vivster said:
Why are all headlines saying Trump is impeached when he's not impeached at all and most likely never will be?

If Pelosi ever gets around to submitting the paperwork to the Senate he will be. The media are just getting ahead of themselves. He won't be removed though because the Senate will reject it.



Locknuts said:
Machiavellian said:

No its not illegal but it sure makes it very hard to believe this was not for personal intent when you use your own lawyer, someone who cannot testify against you if you asked them to do something illegal or whatever.  When that same person represent your personal agenda, how can you make the case that this was for the US.  Like I said, Giuliani whole involvement is what throws out everything when people try to say Trump was acting on the US behast instead of a personal one. No one can rightfully explain Giuliani role in this whole affair because when they do, it only leads one place, to this being a personal agenda by the president.

No one is stupid.  The whole point of using Giuliani instead of official means is because everything is recorded during official means.  You side step those means so that you prevent those documents and records to become publicly available.  From there, Trump can say whatever he wants knowing that records of his operation are under Giuliani hands.

Yeah it was a huge mistake to get Guliani involved. I think he did it because he trusts Guliani and he doesn't trust most of the staff that have been there before his Presidency. It's not a justificaiton though, it makes it look like he just does whatever he wants.

That is the point, if he was doing things along the legal way, he would not need to TRUST someone.  If he was following the proper channels there really isn't a need for Giuliani.  I still believe Trump could have accomplish his goal without Guiliani but of course it would have taken a lot more effort because he would need to side step a lot of either illegal, immoral or both when conducting business.  Guiliani bypass all of that because he works directly for Trump.  Trump doesn't have to care when his administration tell him this is illegal, or this violates this or that.

When you take into account how Trump used his last lawyer, Guiliani makes total sense why Trump would use him in this scenario.  It's not because Trump trust Guiliani, its because this is how Trump has always handled gray area dealings.  Trump believes by using a lawyer it shields him from prosecution.  If dirty deeds are found, the lawyer takes the fall not him.  Trump tries to make sure there is no records of his dealings so when the Lawyer runs afoul of the law, then it's his words against Trump.  Its basic mafia type of stuff but it works pretty good on the government level as well.

The reason we are here is that Trump still thinks he can operate like he did as a private citizen, that he can still use the same tactics he used for shady business dealings.  Those tactics do not work the same as a public official and its the reason he fell into this obvious predicament.  The blessing for Trump is that the GOP will do whatever it takes to continue to protect him all the while they probably hate his guts.

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 22 December 2019

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Locknuts said:
vivster said:
Why are all headlines saying Trump is impeached when he's not impeached at all and most likely never will be?

If Pelosi ever gets around to submitting the paperwork to the Senate he will be. The media are just getting ahead of themselves. He won't be removed though because the Senate will reject it.

Looks like I completely misunderstood that word. So it actually means absolutely nothing and just is a fancy thing to say when a president was naughty.

So why is everyone talking about impeachment instead of removal of office? That's like constantly talking about going to the movies but never actually talking about the movies. This whole thing is a fucking circus. Which is quite fitting considering the president is a clown.



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Locknuts said:
SuaveSocialist said:

Then why are you talking to me?  You haven't even read the evidence yet.  By your own admission, you have not finished your reading.  Not only have you neglected to read Section 2, Section 1 directs you to the Endnotes over one thousand times, many such instances directing you to additional required reading, and by your own admission you haven't even consulted it yet. 

This hilariously debunks your claim that you "read the relevant parts".  To the contrary, it suggests you merely skimmed the document, (badly, I might add).  I see no evidence that you went any further than the second page of the Preface.  

Do your reading.  Then back to me.

You're being disingenuous. 

You got what you said you'd be happy to receive: "a link to some concrete stuff".  

Do your reading (I sure did).  Then get back to me.



Locknuts said:
JRPGfan said:

US Ambassador Gordon Sondland.

He testified that Rudy Giulani was acting as the "voice of the president" and he was just doing his job.
That Trump knew and wanted, a quid pro quo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDNcnlaKIhk  (this one is the one to watch)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Le5ZYMNbE

So he Guliani made him think a quid pro quo was what the Trump wanted, but then Trump directly told him 'no quid pro quo':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_c17vxrPWQ

This Sondland guy needs to get his story straight.

By then he knows it backfired..... so ofcourse he doesnt say it, then, when asked directly.
Trump knows well when he breaks the law, and how to get around it.



Locknuts said:
Machiavellian said:

No its not illegal but it sure makes it very hard to believe this was not for personal intent when you use your own lawyer, someone who cannot testify against you if you asked them to do something illegal or whatever.  When that same person represent your personal agenda, how can you make the case that this was for the US.  Like I said, Giuliani whole involvement is what throws out everything when people try to say Trump was acting on the US behast instead of a personal one. No one can rightfully explain Giuliani role in this whole affair because when they do, it only leads one place, to this being a personal agenda by the president.

No one is stupid.  The whole point of using Giuliani instead of official means is because everything is recorded during official means.  You side step those means so that you prevent those documents and records to become publicly available.  From there, Trump can say whatever he wants knowing that records of his operation are under Giuliani hands.

Yeah it was a huge mistake to get Guliani involved. I think he did it because he trusts Guliani and he doesn't trust most of the staff that have been there before his Presidency. It's not a justification though, it makes it look like he just does whatever he wants. But it also jeopardises his case for the reasons you said. It makes it look like he might try to claim Attorney/Client privilege. If he does claim that, we'll know he's guilty. But that's probably illegal in matters of state anyway and he'd be impeached straight away. Lol.

Supposedly Guliani doesnt have security clearance to do what he did either.
Trump trust him, to do whatever hes told, even if not legal.

Which is why when Guliani tells someone else what to do, as the voice of the president,
Its not because "he mis-understood trump" or "made up his own mind on behalf of the president" or such.

Trump is playing the system, clearly abuseing it and breaking the law, and knows how to get around it.

His "base" is either gulible enough to be lied too, or dont care.



vivster said:
Locknuts said:

If Pelosi ever gets around to submitting the paperwork to the Senate he will be. The media are just getting ahead of themselves. He won't be removed though because the Senate will reject it.

Looks like I completely misunderstood that word. So it actually means absolutely nothing and just is a fancy thing to say when a president was naughty.

So why is everyone talking about impeachment instead of removal of office? That's like constantly talking about going to the movies but never actually talking about the movies. This whole thing is a fucking circus. Which is quite fitting considering the president is a clown.

Well actually its not a fancy word but you can consider being Impeach as like having a grand jury decide that their is a case worthy to go to trial over.  Now its up to the Senate to do their jobs and try the case.  As we know, the GOP controls the Senate so the chance of the GOP ruling against Trump is slim UNLESS, there was a silent vote, then things could get very interesting.  

What I do not understand by your response is that you believe just because the chance is slim to remove Trump from office, this is a circus.  Actually what we get to see is how each side handles this situation.  Currently there have been a few GOP members who have come out publicly saying they will work with the President and his lawyers so he doesn't face prosecution.  Now if that were to happen in a real court of law, that person would instantly be removed from the proceedings.  There are Dems who state they would vote to prosecute before a trial even happen, the same goes for them as well.  The thing is, what we should see is the process work the way it suppose to be.  That the president goes on trial, evidence, sworn testimony, documents you name it is presented to the court and then a decision is made.  If one party or the other decides to not do their job, then they should face the consequences.

Things should become more interesting once things are push to the Senate.  We get to see how all the actors perform and then we can see if how the country response afterwards.

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 22 December 2019