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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Why did Pokemon even jump to 3D?

 

If going back to 2D pokemon games would guarantee the National Dex, would you be fine with it?

Yes, the artstyle is neve... 14 34.15%
 
No, Pokemon needs to adva... 27 65.85%
 
Total:41
Barkley said:
RolStoppable said:

Is your post supposed to be taken seriously? It comes across as a demand that the number of creatures should scale with the sales.

The amount of effort/work and budget should scale with sales. If a game that makes $20m in revenue can manage to have 240 high quality animated creatures than a game that makes $900m+ in revenue can manage much more. Pokemon has never appeared to have a large budget while being one of the biggest earners in gaming.

Not with sales but time, delaying the game with more or all pokemon would be a 'better' game but cost more time to do so.  At this point they should have said they will bring more or all on a later date it would probably have been a better effect because you can alteast forward to the pokemon being added.   This reminds me all of GT on PS3 that would have lesser cars and people were upset so they put the PS2 cars in the game with PS2 graphics and people were pissed.






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konnichiwa said:
Barkley said:

The amount of effort/work and budget should scale with sales. If a game that makes $20m in revenue can manage to have 240 high quality animated creatures than a game that makes $900m+ in revenue can manage much more. Pokemon has never appeared to have a large budget while being one of the biggest earners in gaming.

Not with sales but time, delaying the game with more or all pokemon would be a 'better' game but cost more time to do so.  At this point they should have said they will bring more or all on a later date it would probably have been a better effect because you can alteast forward to the pokemon being added.   This reminds me all of GT on PS3 that would have lesser cars and people were upset so they put the PS2 cars in the game with PS2 graphics and people were pissed.

You don't necessarily need more time, more developers would work too. Cyber Punk has over 400 developers for instance. Game Freak employs a total of 143 people, some of those developers working on Town. Over the last decade Pokemon RPG's have sold over 100m copies. 

In the same time that Pokemon sold 100m copies, PlatinumGames sold roughly 15m games... yet employ 211 people. I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a company that has such a proportionally low employment compared to sales as Game Freak. Which is fine until you do something fans don't like because it'd be too much work, especially with the price increasing from $40 to $60 with the Switch.

And honestly the Pokemon X/Y models shown rendered at 1080p in Citra are good enough, they could do with higher resolution textures but other then that. I think most people that want a full national dex would be fine with the X/Y models, rather than not having them at all. Cars are more complicated and detailed shapes/textures than pokemon so Gran Turismo was a bit different, especially when you can compare it to Forza 3, which with DLC had 500 high quality cars while GT5 had just 211 "premium cars".



Darwinianevolution said:

So I've been thinking about the debacle that is the Sword & Shield lack of a National Dex. Looking at Game Freak's record in the past couple of years, it seems that from X/Y, GF has been pumping out Pokemon games almost yearly: X/Y in 2013, ORAS in 2014, SunMoon in 2016, USUM in 2017, Let's Go P/E in 2018, and Sw/Sh in 2019. And with their refusal to either reduce their output, focus on a product at a time (why are they doing Town alongside Pokemon, and not after??), increase their workforce or just delay the game, it seems that the series is going to go through a quick process of annualization that will affect its quality considerably. And while I do think that this mostly due to GF and The Pokemon Company's change of priorities towards the mobile market (Pokemon Go earned wayyyyy more money that any singular pokemon game, or even whole generation, ever did), I also would like to point out another possible problem that might have been hurting the series: its jump to 3D.

Now before saying anything, let me clarify that I mean the mainline title's jump. The series is in 3D since the N64, but after XY, the main series became a 3D game. And considering this jump was made decades after Super Mario 64 and Zelda Ocarina of Time, this should have been fine. And for the most part it was, but it also came alongside major corner cuts: many, many features of the previous games would either be replaced for inferior versions, or just outright taken out. XY were considered mediocre pokemon games after the huge acclaim of Black/White, Sun and Moon were even less well regarded (and USUM were practically carbon copies of those, making them the most pointless of the 3rd version out there), while Let's Go were another Kanto retread that was accepted by most people as just the apetizer before Sword/Shield. And then we heard the news. Sword Shield is going to represent the biggest example of this corner cutting, not only taking features from the previous gens, but also taking battle modes and even Pokemon themselves. I don't think this is a coincidence. The 2D style, while limiting in some ways, allowed a lot of flexibility to add more stuff. It was easier to design the world, characters, interactions, movements, enviromental effects... all while keeping a decent artstyle. Considering sprite-based games like Octopath Traveller look gorgeous, the artistic integrity and the presentation aren't necessarily affected for being 2D, while many elements of the current 3D pokemon games seem underdeveloped. Again, I don't think this is the main issue, but I do think this is an issue.

What do you think? Do you think jumping into 3D was a mistake, or do you think this would have happened regardless or 2D/3D? And, if going back to 2D guaranteed the integrity of the National Dex, would you accept reverting to sprites?

You’re making a couple of big assumptions here.

1. You’re making the assumption that 2D has more flexibility and is easier than 3D. On top of this, you’re making the assumption that 3D artists and modellers can do 2D art easier. That 2D animation is easier.

2. The assumption that a 2D world offers more possibilities than a 3D world.

2. The assumption that the resources being used to make the game Town would also have the skill sets required to build this “national dex” thing.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Jumpin said:
Darwinianevolution said:

So I've been thinking about the debacle that is the Sword & Shield lack of a National Dex. Looking at Game Freak's record in the past couple of years, it seems that from X/Y, GF has been pumping out Pokemon games almost yearly: X/Y in 2013, ORAS in 2014, SunMoon in 2016, USUM in 2017, Let's Go P/E in 2018, and Sw/Sh in 2019. And with their refusal to either reduce their output, focus on a product at a time (why are they doing Town alongside Pokemon, and not after??), increase their workforce or just delay the game, it seems that the series is going to go through a quick process of annualization that will affect its quality considerably. And while I do think that this mostly due to GF and The Pokemon Company's change of priorities towards the mobile market (Pokemon Go earned wayyyyy more money that any singular pokemon game, or even whole generation, ever did), I also would like to point out another possible problem that might have been hurting the series: its jump to 3D.

Now before saying anything, let me clarify that I mean the mainline title's jump. The series is in 3D since the N64, but after XY, the main series became a 3D game. And considering this jump was made decades after Super Mario 64 and Zelda Ocarina of Time, this should have been fine. And for the most part it was, but it also came alongside major corner cuts: many, many features of the previous games would either be replaced for inferior versions, or just outright taken out. XY were considered mediocre pokemon games after the huge acclaim of Black/White, Sun and Moon were even less well regarded (and USUM were practically carbon copies of those, making them the most pointless of the 3rd version out there), while Let's Go were another Kanto retread that was accepted by most people as just the apetizer before Sword/Shield. And then we heard the news. Sword Shield is going to represent the biggest example of this corner cutting, not only taking features from the previous gens, but also taking battle modes and even Pokemon themselves. I don't think this is a coincidence. The 2D style, while limiting in some ways, allowed a lot of flexibility to add more stuff. It was easier to design the world, characters, interactions, movements, enviromental effects... all while keeping a decent artstyle. Considering sprite-based games like Octopath Traveller look gorgeous, the artistic integrity and the presentation aren't necessarily affected for being 2D, while many elements of the current 3D pokemon games seem underdeveloped. Again, I don't think this is the main issue, but I do think this is an issue.

What do you think? Do you think jumping into 3D was a mistake, or do you think this would have happened regardless or 2D/3D? And, if going back to 2D guaranteed the integrity of the National Dex, would you accept reverting to sprites?

You’re making a couple of big assumptions here.

1. You’re making the assumption that 2D has more flexibility and is easier than 3D. On top of this, you’re making the assumption that 3D artists and modellers can do 2D art easier. That 2D animation is easier.

2. The assumption that a 2D world offers more possibilities than a 3D world.

2. The assumption that the resources being used to make the game Town would also have the skill sets required to build this “national dex” thing.

While I agree that I may have overestimate the power difference between 2D and 3D design, I'm also using it because, at least in my eyes, the problems with the series began in earnest with the jump to 3D. And while correlation is not causation, I wanted to explore this line of thinking. Most of the games GF have been 2D, so it would not be difficult to assume they would have more difficulties realizing their vision on 3D rather than the tried and tested 2D. And I also wanted to know whether people would accept a complete game on 2D rather than one with missing features on 3D.

Regardless of 2D or 3D, this lack of features cannot, and should not, be just merrily accepted. This is just going to get worse and worse if we don't make a clear stance against it.

Also, no shit the resources for Town would be better used on Pokemon. Even if they didn't fix the National Dex, there's also things like Triple/Rotational battles, Mega Evolutions, Z moves... And all of the fan requested features that probably won't come such as the Battle Frontier, Contests, multiple regions... If the people in charge of Town can't do none of this things, I wouldn't trust them with Town as a decent RPG either.



You know it deserves the GOTY.

Come join The 2018 Obscure Game Monthly Review Thread.

Gamefreak make Pokemon games the market wants, more of the same. The series has been selling an incredible 15-17 million copies per major entry for nearly 20 years. This is why they are the biggest entertainment franchise on the planet.

They won't make any drastic changes to Pokemon unless sales suffer, don't fix it ain't broke.



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mZuzek said:
p0isonparadise said:
Gamefreak make Pokemon games the market wants, more of the same. The series has been selling an incredible 15-17 million copies per major entry for nearly 20 years. This is why they are the biggest entertainment franchise on the planet.

They won't make any drastic changes to Pokemon unless sales suffer, don't fix it ain't broke.

Having the national Pokédex available in every game wasn't broke, though. Pretty sure this is a case of them, quite clearly, breaking it.

Ruby/Sapphire didn't have a national dex as you could not transfer older Pokemon into the game until FireRed/LeafGreen came out. I expect the same thing for Sword/Shield to happen next year when the Diamond/Pearl remakes are released. 

Either way sales for Sword/Shield will prove if the majority care or not, or it was just a vocal minority. 



p0isonparadise said:
mZuzek said:

Having the national Pokédex available in every game wasn't broke, though. Pretty sure this is a case of them, quite clearly, breaking it.

Ruby/Sapphire didn't have a national dex as you could not transfer older Pokemon into the game until FireRed/LeafGreen came out. I expect the same thing for Sword/Shield to happen next year when the Diamond/Pearl remakes are released. 

Either way sales for Sword/Shield will prove if the majority care or not, or it was just a vocal minority. 

That doesn't work that way. The fact you could send pokemon unavailable in R/S from Fr/Lg/Em/Col/XD/Channel means that the National Dex was there. Whether it was implemented well enough in a time without online trading is another thing entirely. Sword/Shield won't even reach that because the Pokemon won't be coded in, meaning they not only don't exist, they can't exist in any way, shape or form.



You know it deserves the GOTY.

Come join The 2018 Obscure Game Monthly Review Thread.

p0isonparadise said:
mZuzek said:

Having the national Pokédex available in every game wasn't broke, though. Pretty sure this is a case of them, quite clearly, breaking it.

Ruby/Sapphire didn't have a national dex as you could not transfer older Pokemon into the game until FireRed/LeafGreen came out. I expect the same thing for Sword/Shield to happen next year when the Diamond/Pearl remakes are released. 

Either way sales for Sword/Shield will prove if the majority care or not, or it was just a vocal minority. 

Ruby/Sapphire wasn't patched to add National Dex. It always had it. You just couldn't trade between GBA and the original Gameboy games. That's not the case this time, they have a "pokebank", a paid service, the entire purpose of which is to store your pokemon and load them into the games.

And no sales won't prove anything, because most people who do care will still buy the thing anyway.



Barkley said:
p0isonparadise said:

Ruby/Sapphire didn't have a national dex as you could not transfer older Pokemon into the game until FireRed/LeafGreen came out. I expect the same thing for Sword/Shield to happen next year when the Diamond/Pearl remakes are released. 

Either way sales for Sword/Shield will prove if the majority care or not, or it was just a vocal minority. 

And no sales won't prove anything, because most people who do care will still buy the thing anyway.

Ah, so they have no one to blame but themselves. They must be the same people who bitch about Nintendo's Online service yet still pay for it. Worms for brains.

Vote with your wallet, folks. 



Natural progression: 2d -> 3d