Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Why did Pokemon even jump to 3D?

If going back to 2D pokemon games would guarantee the National Dex, would you be fine with it?

Yes, the artstyle is neve... 14 34.15%
 
No, Pokemon needs to adva... 27 65.85%
 
Total:41
NightlyPoe said:
vivster said:
It's downright insulting to even propose that people need to choose. It's 2019 and we're talking about a multi billion dollar company that refuses to make a few more low detail models because they're afraid their multi billions could become multi billions minus 2 dollars. This isn't Sophie's choice. We're not talking about anything impossible here. We're talking about spoiled brats that rather motivate their fanbase to fight for their right to be lazy than to do actual work.

This thread is enabling bad behavior. Bad behavior of a company that already heavily profits from keeping expectations as low as possible.

Again, the game looks fine to me.

Sorry, not interested in joining this internet mob.

By calling people who just point out terrible behavior of a company an "internet mob" you have already joined this fight. You could've been neutral but apparently you already chose a side.



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vivster said:
NightlyPoe said:

Again, the game looks fine to me.

Sorry, not interested in joining this internet mob.

By calling people who just point out terrible behavior of a company an "internet mob" you have already joined this fight. You could've been neutral but apparently you already chose a side.

Nope, just calling out the actual bad behavior.  I tend to do that.  For example, I didn't like the last season of Game of Thrones.  It didn't stop me from calling out people that took it to excess.  Trust me, I had people screaming at me for weeks over that one.

Nice try though.

Now please calm down and think about how silly it is that you're referring to a company not including a perk you want "terrible behavior".



Digimon Cyber Sleuth, a game that sold... 500k? Maybe less? Had 240 Digimon.

Pokemon Sword & Shield, a game that will sell 15-20m: Will probably have 300-450 Pokemon. "Oh no it's too much work!" Not only will it sell 15-20m but they'll release a third version to milk the same work for at least another 5-10m.

So we have a game probably making roughly $20m in revenue vs a game making at least $900m in revenue... and if you're lucky S&S will have twice as many creatures. Nice. We're not going to do more work, but we will make more money than we know what to do with.

I would very much like to see what the budget for Sword and Shield is.

Where did the $2.5 Billion + money from Pokemon Go disappear to?

Last edited by Barkley - on 01 July 2019

LTD: PS4 - 125m, Switch - 110m, XBO - 51m

2020: PS4 - 9m, Switch - 22.5m, XBO - 2.5m, PS5 - 4.5m, XBX - 2.8m

Barkley said:

Digimon Cyber Sleuth, a game that sold... 500k? Maybe less? Had 240 Digimon.

Pokemon Sword & Shield, a game that will sell 15-20m: Will probably have 300-450 Pokemon. "Oh no it's too much work!" Not only will it sell 15-20m but they'll release a third version to milk the same work for at least another 5-10m.

So we have a game probably making roughly $20m in revenue vs a game making at least $900m in revenue... and if you're lucky S&S will have twice as many creatures. Nice. We're not going to do more work, but we will make more money than we know what to do with.

I would very much like to see what the budget for Sword and Shield is.

Where did the $2.5 Billion + money from Pokemon Go disappear to?

Is your post supposed to be taken seriously? It comes across as a demand that the number of creatures should scale with the sales.



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RolStoppable said:
Barkley said:

Digimon Cyber Sleuth, a game that sold... 500k? Maybe less? Had 240 Digimon.

Pokemon Sword & Shield, a game that will sell 15-20m: Will probably have 300-450 Pokemon. "Oh no it's too much work!" Not only will it sell 15-20m but they'll release a third version to milk the same work for at least another 5-10m.

So we have a game probably making roughly $20m in revenue vs a game making at least $900m in revenue... and if you're lucky S&S will have twice as many creatures. Nice. We're not going to do more work, but we will make more money than we know what to do with.

I would very much like to see what the budget for Sword and Shield is.

Where did the $2.5 Billion + money from Pokemon Go disappear to?

Is your post supposed to be taken seriously? It comes across as a demand that the number of creatures should scale with the sales.

The amount of effort/work and budget should scale with sales. If a game that makes $20m in revenue can manage to have 240 high quality animated creatures than a game that makes $900m+ in revenue can manage much more. Pokemon has never appeared to have a large budget while being one of the biggest earners in gaming.



LTD: PS4 - 125m, Switch - 110m, XBO - 51m

2020: PS4 - 9m, Switch - 22.5m, XBO - 2.5m, PS5 - 4.5m, XBX - 2.8m

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From my understanding Sword/Shield is decked up to have over 800 Pokemon. I do not understand how this is a small number. I can't fathom wanting to catch more than a hundred or two.



Barkley said:
RolStoppable said:

Is your post supposed to be taken seriously? It comes across as a demand that the number of creatures should scale with the sales.

The amount of effort/work and budget should scale with sales. If a game that makes $20m in revenue can manage to have 240 high quality animated creatures than a game that makes $900m+ in revenue can manage much more. Pokemon has never appeared to have a large budget while being one of the biggest earners in gaming.

Not with sales but time, delaying the game with more or all pokemon would be a 'better' game but cost more time to do so.  At this point they should have said they will bring more or all on a later date it would probably have been a better effect because you can alteast forward to the pokemon being added.   This reminds me all of GT on PS3 that would have lesser cars and people were upset so they put the PS2 cars in the game with PS2 graphics and people were pissed.






konnichiwa said:
Barkley said:

The amount of effort/work and budget should scale with sales. If a game that makes $20m in revenue can manage to have 240 high quality animated creatures than a game that makes $900m+ in revenue can manage much more. Pokemon has never appeared to have a large budget while being one of the biggest earners in gaming.

Not with sales but time, delaying the game with more or all pokemon would be a 'better' game but cost more time to do so.  At this point they should have said they will bring more or all on a later date it would probably have been a better effect because you can alteast forward to the pokemon being added.   This reminds me all of GT on PS3 that would have lesser cars and people were upset so they put the PS2 cars in the game with PS2 graphics and people were pissed.

You don't necessarily need more time, more developers would work too. Cyber Punk has over 400 developers for instance. Game Freak employs a total of 143 people, some of those developers working on Town. Over the last decade Pokemon RPG's have sold over 100m copies. 

In the same time that Pokemon sold 100m copies, PlatinumGames sold roughly 15m games... yet employ 211 people. I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a company that has such a proportionally low employment compared to sales as Game Freak. Which is fine until you do something fans don't like because it'd be too much work, especially with the price increasing from $40 to $60 with the Switch.

And honestly the Pokemon X/Y models shown rendered at 1080p in Citra are good enough, they could do with higher resolution textures but other then that. I think most people that want a full national dex would be fine with the X/Y models, rather than not having them at all. Cars are more complicated and detailed shapes/textures than pokemon so Gran Turismo was a bit different, especially when you can compare it to Forza 3, which with DLC had 500 high quality cars while GT5 had just 211 "premium cars".



LTD: PS4 - 125m, Switch - 110m, XBO - 51m

2020: PS4 - 9m, Switch - 22.5m, XBO - 2.5m, PS5 - 4.5m, XBX - 2.8m

Darwinianevolution said:

So I've been thinking about the debacle that is the Sword & Shield lack of a National Dex. Looking at Game Freak's record in the past couple of years, it seems that from X/Y, GF has been pumping out Pokemon games almost yearly: X/Y in 2013, ORAS in 2014, SunMoon in 2016, USUM in 2017, Let's Go P/E in 2018, and Sw/Sh in 2019. And with their refusal to either reduce their output, focus on a product at a time (why are they doing Town alongside Pokemon, and not after??), increase their workforce or just delay the game, it seems that the series is going to go through a quick process of annualization that will affect its quality considerably. And while I do think that this mostly due to GF and The Pokemon Company's change of priorities towards the mobile market (Pokemon Go earned wayyyyy more money that any singular pokemon game, or even whole generation, ever did), I also would like to point out another possible problem that might have been hurting the series: its jump to 3D.

Now before saying anything, let me clarify that I mean the mainline title's jump. The series is in 3D since the N64, but after XY, the main series became a 3D game. And considering this jump was made decades after Super Mario 64 and Zelda Ocarina of Time, this should have been fine. And for the most part it was, but it also came alongside major corner cuts: many, many features of the previous games would either be replaced for inferior versions, or just outright taken out. XY were considered mediocre pokemon games after the huge acclaim of Black/White, Sun and Moon were even less well regarded (and USUM were practically carbon copies of those, making them the most pointless of the 3rd version out there), while Let's Go were another Kanto retread that was accepted by most people as just the apetizer before Sword/Shield. And then we heard the news. Sword Shield is going to represent the biggest example of this corner cutting, not only taking features from the previous gens, but also taking battle modes and even Pokemon themselves. I don't think this is a coincidence. The 2D style, while limiting in some ways, allowed a lot of flexibility to add more stuff. It was easier to design the world, characters, interactions, movements, enviromental effects... all while keeping a decent artstyle. Considering sprite-based games like Octopath Traveller look gorgeous, the artistic integrity and the presentation aren't necessarily affected for being 2D, while many elements of the current 3D pokemon games seem underdeveloped. Again, I don't think this is the main issue, but I do think this is an issue.

What do you think? Do you think jumping into 3D was a mistake, or do you think this would have happened regardless or 2D/3D? And, if going back to 2D guaranteed the integrity of the National Dex, would you accept reverting to sprites?

You’re making a couple of big assumptions here.

1. You’re making the assumption that 2D has more flexibility and is easier than 3D. On top of this, you’re making the assumption that 3D artists and modellers can do 2D art easier. That 2D animation is easier.

2. The assumption that a 2D world offers more possibilities than a 3D world.

2. The assumption that the resources being used to make the game Town would also have the skill sets required to build this “national dex” thing.



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Jumpin said:
Darwinianevolution said:

So I've been thinking about the debacle that is the Sword & Shield lack of a National Dex. Looking at Game Freak's record in the past couple of years, it seems that from X/Y, GF has been pumping out Pokemon games almost yearly: X/Y in 2013, ORAS in 2014, SunMoon in 2016, USUM in 2017, Let's Go P/E in 2018, and Sw/Sh in 2019. And with their refusal to either reduce their output, focus on a product at a time (why are they doing Town alongside Pokemon, and not after??), increase their workforce or just delay the game, it seems that the series is going to go through a quick process of annualization that will affect its quality considerably. And while I do think that this mostly due to GF and The Pokemon Company's change of priorities towards the mobile market (Pokemon Go earned wayyyyy more money that any singular pokemon game, or even whole generation, ever did), I also would like to point out another possible problem that might have been hurting the series: its jump to 3D.

Now before saying anything, let me clarify that I mean the mainline title's jump. The series is in 3D since the N64, but after XY, the main series became a 3D game. And considering this jump was made decades after Super Mario 64 and Zelda Ocarina of Time, this should have been fine. And for the most part it was, but it also came alongside major corner cuts: many, many features of the previous games would either be replaced for inferior versions, or just outright taken out. XY were considered mediocre pokemon games after the huge acclaim of Black/White, Sun and Moon were even less well regarded (and USUM were practically carbon copies of those, making them the most pointless of the 3rd version out there), while Let's Go were another Kanto retread that was accepted by most people as just the apetizer before Sword/Shield. And then we heard the news. Sword Shield is going to represent the biggest example of this corner cutting, not only taking features from the previous gens, but also taking battle modes and even Pokemon themselves. I don't think this is a coincidence. The 2D style, while limiting in some ways, allowed a lot of flexibility to add more stuff. It was easier to design the world, characters, interactions, movements, enviromental effects... all while keeping a decent artstyle. Considering sprite-based games like Octopath Traveller look gorgeous, the artistic integrity and the presentation aren't necessarily affected for being 2D, while many elements of the current 3D pokemon games seem underdeveloped. Again, I don't think this is the main issue, but I do think this is an issue.

What do you think? Do you think jumping into 3D was a mistake, or do you think this would have happened regardless or 2D/3D? And, if going back to 2D guaranteed the integrity of the National Dex, would you accept reverting to sprites?

You’re making a couple of big assumptions here.

1. You’re making the assumption that 2D has more flexibility and is easier than 3D. On top of this, you’re making the assumption that 3D artists and modellers can do 2D art easier. That 2D animation is easier.

2. The assumption that a 2D world offers more possibilities than a 3D world.

2. The assumption that the resources being used to make the game Town would also have the skill sets required to build this “national dex” thing.

While I agree that I may have overestimate the power difference between 2D and 3D design, I'm also using it because, at least in my eyes, the problems with the series began in earnest with the jump to 3D. And while correlation is not causation, I wanted to explore this line of thinking. Most of the games GF have been 2D, so it would not be difficult to assume they would have more difficulties realizing their vision on 3D rather than the tried and tested 2D. And I also wanted to know whether people would accept a complete game on 2D rather than one with missing features on 3D.

Regardless of 2D or 3D, this lack of features cannot, and should not, be just merrily accepted. This is just going to get worse and worse if we don't make a clear stance against it.

Also, no shit the resources for Town would be better used on Pokemon. Even if they didn't fix the National Dex, there's also things like Triple/Rotational battles, Mega Evolutions, Z moves... And all of the fan requested features that probably won't come such as the Battle Frontier, Contests, multiple regions... If the people in charge of Town can't do none of this things, I wouldn't trust them with Town as a decent RPG either.



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