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Forums - Politics Discussion - Muslim parents in UK protest school children's storybook featuring same gender parents

Pemalite said:
Machiavellian said:

Well lets put it this way, from my experience just telling a child someone loves each other isn't the end of the discussion as you stated.  That is only the beginning and from there you have to define exactly what love is.  Is it love between 2 friends, a family member like sister and brother or the love between a mom and dad.  You made the statement that all you need to say they love each other and that's it, the child is satisfied with the answer and never want the details or the context.

You are an Adult... Make it the end of a discussion. Children don't get to control or dictate terms to you.

You are delving into slippery slope arguments, which is a logical fallacy, you need to recognize that and recognize that your line of thinking is highly erroneous due to that very fact.
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/162/Slippery-Slopehttps://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

The fact of the matter is... Whenever someone has used me as an example of teaching their children about Homosexuality, they left it as "They love each other". - The kids were satisfied with that answer.

I am telling you that you cannot make it the end of the discussion.  Have you listened to a word that I stated.  As the parent if you are not teaching your child someone else will.  If you are not filling in the gap in their knowledge someone else will.  If you are not treating your child with respect to their curiosity and question someone else will.  Just because YOU decide to end the conversation does not mean to the child its ended.  They will seek understanding whether you provide it or not.  The only thing I hear from you is that you tell the kids about homosexuality and that's the end but in reality its the end for you not the parent or the child.  Its only the beginning as any simplistic answer will only satisfy the now not the future.

Machiavellian said:

Not sure what you mean.  I am stating you cannot leave out context or just leave gaps in the subject hoping the the child will not come back for more answers or for that matter not come back at all but get their info from somewhere else.  There is no slippery slope in my argument because I am stating that once you open up a topic you have to be prepared to talk about everything, not just the parts you feel you can handle.  Its great that you are a person some parents can come to to open up the subject but are you the person they come back to to fill in the gaps.  Do you believe that just saying we love each other the child will not seek context to what that means.  At the end of the day, most parents do not have you for context in these talks but instead rely on their own experience and what they either know or think they know or how they feel about the subject.  Its a subject that will constantly come back as the child gets more info on the topic.

If you think that talking about two adults showing love and affection to children is suddenly going to turn into a discussion about how individuals fuck each other.. Then you are probably going about it the wrong way, kids don't need to know details like how I went and had sex with 7 different guys at a gay sauna with my partner last weekend... But telling them I love my partner as I hug him after dealing with casualties at a car accident is all that is needed.

It is literally no different talking to a child about how their mum and dad loves each other, there is no further discussion that delves into questionable aspects like you so eloquently describe, it just doesn't happen... It's baseless fear mongering.

If the parents don't have appropriate experience, information or context like you say... Then that just places a larger emphasis on the need of teaching kids about LGBTQI issues in the curriculum does it not? You said it yourself that parents are failing in this area.

This is where I believe you have no experience in this subject.  Yes, telling a child that 2 adults love each other like mom and dad can lead to a discussion about sex.  Since I have had this conversation I know exactly what I am talking about.  Do you believe that children do not get information about sex before their teen years.  I know as a child I knew about sex at 6 years old but did not understand fully.  In today's world there are girls in middle school doing knob jobs on their little boys. Hell, there was an HBO special about the whole thing. I remember hunching a young girl at 7 years old thinking I was having sex.  I am telling you that as a parent, you deal with this stuff all the time or you don't and the child will get their info somewhere else and do experiments with their friends.  This still comes back to what I am saying that this book doesn't do enough and it doesn't fill in the gap thus it's a half measure at a young age.   This doesn't help at all but instead give a chance to have bias introduced before the child reach an age of understanding.

Machiavellian said:

Raising their children in what way because as a parent, you deal with a thousand things you need to do to raise your child.  What exactly does that mean.  What this does is at this early age is force a conversation on the topic earlier then I believe the LGBT community would want.  Instead of teaching a child early about different relationships it brings up the conversation so bias can be introduced at an early age and enforced before the child has a chance to develop their own opinions.  

The majority of parents would never even have such conversations with their kids and for most they would see nothing wrong or different if they see Dad and Dad or Mom and Mom because there is no bias within a child so young.  What this does is now the child will look for context to what is taught in school and they will ask their parents to fill the gap.  If you are ok that the happy path will not always be the result then so be it but I do not believe this closes the gap.  I believe this opens the door for bias and indoctrination during the very early development stage of a child and will not accomplish the learning you wish for but instead give parents who do not look favorable towards the LGBT community to instill their bias to the child.

 

LGBT people are here to stay, they are in the community. Kids are going to see two men holding hands, showing affection and ask questions... Telling a child that it's because those two people love each other isn't the end of the world.

Kids understand the concept of love, apparently than allot of Adults... It's not some dirty, unthinkable topic that should be avoided, LGBT people are part of the real world, they have always existed, will always exist and it's time that some people embraced that very fact and got over it.

As for indoctrination... I think you should be a little more concerned about religion on that front than education on LGBT issues/culture. I mean.. Shit.

The thing is for the world to accept the LGBT community as a whole, you cannot force anything but instead people need to move on from their prejudice.

At BOLD:  This is exactly what you want.  You want them to see it naturally as if this is no different than walking down the street.  What you do not want is it taught as something different or unique where it then can be portrayed as outside the norm.

Actually, I would say that kids do not understand the concept of love instead they understand the feeling of love.  Love to a child is about how they feel not exactly what true love is and love in itself is very complex emotionally.  

I can tell you when I was growing up, I did not get exposed to any homosexual group until my teens but I know for a fact if I was exposed to content like that book while I was 5 years old and went to my mom or dad for context it would not be good.  Their bias on that issue is very set and even today, they are not very open minded on the subject.

Basically what I am saying is that there is a 2 edged sword to this type of material at this young age and there isn't always going to be the happy path where there is understanding and acceptance.  



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SpokenTruth said:
DonFerrari said:

I disagree on it being a slippery slope, but there isn't a point in us discussing it =]

No it isn't significantly worse. I would the point is that when you prompt situations to kids they will be curious about it, so you don't need to be pointing things that aren't necessary for them to discover before they are curious by themselves.

In Brazil and most of western world government is also elected, doesn't mean they won't make bad laws, steal money and a lot of other bad stuff. Not sure why you are pointing that. A political power may lose power, but how many laws in your country have been passed to diminish the government power versus expanding it.

Yes, sure. I'm racist because I don't agree with you. That may have been inherited from 3/4 of black african slaves ancestry that I have.

1) Childs have preferences and prejudices even before being influenced on those.

2) My niece since about 2 years old liked me more than my brother and reasoned that it was due to the skin being the same tone as her.

3) Childs mock one another all the time, even among friends and from very early age.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6355-babies-prefer-to-gaze-upon-beautiful-faces/

1). Not to the degree of fear and confusion. Which is the whole premise here. Go back and read my Point 2 above.

2). Sure, but is your niece fearful and confused regarding your brother?  Again, go back and read my Point 2 above.

3). Babies preferring pretty faces has to do with our psychological inclination towards facial symmetry. Further, that's not mocking the non-pretty faces.  It's more of an indifference. Again, Point 2 above.

1) Sure it is not to a degree of fear, but thanks for acknowledging that prejudice is already part of them. Prejudice isn't fear and confusion.

2) No, but still she already had preferences to which was closer to how she was before adult influencing her.

3) Prejudice have to do with our instinct of survival and is ingrained in human being. Mocking is also part of human being and it can come from anything that a child see that is different tham him or herself.



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DonFerrari said:
Pemalite said:

It is a slippery slope logical fallacy.
If someone claims one thing... And then suddenly the argument expands and runs away from that claim... It's a slippery slope argument... Which is exactly what is occurring.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/162/Slippery-Slopehttps://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

I am claiming that you can keep the response simple and tactful... And the slippery slope is where it will spiral out of control due to a childs curiosity, you cannot get a better example of a slippery slope argument than that.

Whether the kids are curious or not is ultimately irrelevant though, Kids will be curious about sexual intercourse regardless if the people are Homosexual or not... But suddenly because we are talking about LGBTQI people it's somehow significantly worse? I don't get it, double standards.

I disagree on it being a slippery slope, but there isn't a point in us discussing it =]

No it isn't significantly worse. I would the point is that when you prompt situations to kids they will be curious about it, so you don't need to be pointing things that aren't necessary for them to discover before they are curious by themselves.

It is a logical fallacy. I have provided the necessary evidence and framework to show you that it is.

The kids will be curious once they see two men holding hands or hugging, unless you are suggesting such actions should be forbade in public?

LadyJasmine said:
I sort of find it odd that people on the left bash all Christians non stop and many famous comedians and talk show hosts made a living on that.

However they would not touch this with a ten-foot pole as any critique of Islam = you are racist.

Islam is derived from the same historical context as what the Christians and Jews believe, it's all the same God in the end... There is a reason why the Bible is strictly against Pork like the Quran and Torah.
What the left is generally proposing is for all the middle eastern religions to be treated as equals in all aspects, of course to those who hold extreme prejudices against Islam will see it as some kind of favoritism depending on perspective.

Being anti-religious is inherently non-racist anyway, where the racism generally comes into play is how a certain religion is often associated with a certain racial demographic... Like those of Middle Eastern descent, the far left needs to stop playing the racism card, no doubt.

Either way, it's pretty much irrelevant, we aren't going to change the ideals of either the left or right at the end of the day, so feel free to come join me in the Center. :P

Machiavellian said:

At BOLD:  This is exactly what you want.  You want them to see it naturally as if this is no different than walking down the street.  What you do not want is it taught as something different or unique where it then can be portrayed as outside the norm.

Yes I do. Do you disagree?

Machiavellian said:

Actually, I would say that kids do not understand the concept of love instead they understand the feeling of love.  Love to a child is about how they feel not exactly what true love is and love in itself is very complex emotionally.  

A child understands true love, they love their parents, their friends, their family.
Either way... A childs ability to understand the extent of love is not the issue... A child understands that "love" can be like a really strong friendship.

Machiavellian said:

I can tell you when I was growing up, I did not get exposed to any homosexual group until my teens but I know for a fact if I was exposed to content like that book while I was 5 years old and went to my mom or dad for context it would not be good.  Their bias on that issue is very set and even today, they are not very open minded on the subject.

Basically what I am saying is that there is a 2 edged sword to this type of material at this young age and there isn't always going to be the happy path where there is understanding and acceptance.  

Sorry to hear that.
Homosexuality though is here to stay and children should be taught about LGBT culture and issues... Not so that they don't offend LGBT people, but so if they ever come to terms with their sexuality at a later date they can feel confident that they are allowed to be themselves openly and not shunned away in a closet...

Plus you have the safety issue, the LGBT community isn't all rainbows, lollipops and sunshine, education helps in this aspect as well.

Clearly I am all for it, you aren't, we both have valid reasoning's for our stance.








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DonFerrari said:
vivster said:

The government is certainly smarter than the average parent. Because they're backed by science while parents are backed by anti-vax facebook groups.

Sorry, but considering private companies are much better managed than government ones I would say individual people are more qualified than government

Private companies aren't better managed. They're just ruthless. It's not that the government is necessarily better at what they are doing but what they do is within certain boundaries and has to adhere to strict rules. Rules that do not apply to moron parents and cutthroat private companies.

If it's about caring for children I will always prefer a regulated service over a private entity that will destroy my child for selfish and ideological reasons.

"Government = bad" is a moronic sentiment perpetuated by idiots and corporations for their own gain.



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Pemalite said:
DonFerrari said:

I disagree on it being a slippery slope, but there isn't a point in us discussing it =]

No it isn't significantly worse. I would the point is that when you prompt situations to kids they will be curious about it, so you don't need to be pointing things that aren't necessary for them to discover before they are curious by themselves.

It is a logical fallacy. I have provided the necessary evidence and framework to show you that it is.

The kids will be curious once they see two men holding hands or hugging, unless you are suggesting such actions should be forbade in public?

LadyJasmine said:
I sort of find it odd that people on the left bash all Christians non stop and many famous comedians and talk show hosts made a living on that.

However they would not touch this with a ten-foot pole as any critique of Islam = you are racist.

Islam is derived from the same historical context as what the Christians and Jews believe, it's all the same God in the end... There is a reason why the Bible is strictly against Pork like the Quran and Torah.
What the left is generally proposing is for all the middle eastern religions to be treated as equals in all aspects, of course to those who hold extreme prejudices against Islam will see it as some kind of favoritism depending on perspective.

Being anti-religious is inherently non-racist anyway, where the racism generally comes into play is how a certain religion is often associated with a certain racial demographic... Like those of Middle Eastern descent, the far left needs to stop playing the racism card, no doubt.

Either way, it's pretty much irrelevant, we aren't going to change the ideals of either the left or right at the end of the day, so feel free to come join me in the Center. :P

Machiavellian said:

At BOLD:  This is exactly what you want.  You want them to see it naturally as if this is no different than walking down the street.  What you do not want is it taught as something different or unique where it then can be portrayed as outside the norm.

Yes I do. Do you disagree?

Machiavellian said:

Actually, I would say that kids do not understand the concept of love instead they understand the feeling of love.  Love to a child is about how they feel not exactly what true love is and love in itself is very complex emotionally.  

A child understands true love, they love their parents, their friends, their family.
Either way... A childs ability to understand the extent of love is not the issue... A child understands that "love" can be like a really strong friendship.

Machiavellian said:

I can tell you when I was growing up, I did not get exposed to any homosexual group until my teens but I know for a fact if I was exposed to content like that book while I was 5 years old and went to my mom or dad for context it would not be good.  Their bias on that issue is very set and even today, they are not very open minded on the subject.

Basically what I am saying is that there is a 2 edged sword to this type of material at this young age and there isn't always going to be the happy path where there is understanding and acceptance.  

Sorry to hear that.
Homosexuality though is here to stay and children should be taught about LGBT culture and issues... Not so that they don't offend LGBT people, but so if they ever come to terms with their sexuality at a later date they can feel confident that they are allowed to be themselves openly and not shunned away in a closet...

Plus you have the safety issue, the LGBT community isn't all rainbows, lollipops and sunshine, education helps in this aspect as well.

Clearly I am all for it, you aren't, we both have valid reasoning's for our stance.






holding hands and hugging I think it's very valid. Kissing and above I don't think is appropriate for any couple in public, even though we can't really stop teenagers from doing it. And no need to put that as part of educacional program.

vivster said:
DonFerrari said:

Sorry, but considering private companies are much better managed than government ones I would say individual people are more qualified than government

Private companies aren't better managed. They're just ruthless. It's not that the government is necessarily better at what they are doing but what they do is within certain boundaries and has to adhere to strict rules. Rules that do not apply to moron parents and cutthroat private companies.

If it's about caring for children I will always prefer a regulated service over a private entity that will destroy my child for selfish and ideological reasons.

"Government = bad" is a moronic sentiment perpetuated by idiots and corporations for their own gain.

Companies are held to much more rules, you often will see prosecution against private companies but public companies being less likely to be persecuted.

There is no free service, it is covered by taxes and the lack of need of profit makes them less motivated. Usually you pay through taxes for a worse service with a government overhead.

Government and personal also have selfish and ideological reasons.

Shall I understand that you are calling me idiot?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

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Backwards people, just like some of the Christians in the US. Good thing they don't represent the majority in any case though.



Pemalite said:
Machiavellian said:

At BOLD:  This is exactly what you want.  You want them to see it naturally as if this is no different than walking down the street.  What you do not want is it taught as something different or unique where it then can be portrayed as outside the norm.

Yes I do. Do you disagree?

Why would you want a child to see your relationship as different, unique or outside of the norm then any other relationship.  What purpose would that have if you are looking for parity.  If you want to be treated as equals or the same then your relationship is nothing special or different its another relationship.

Machiavellian said:

Actually, I would say that kids do not understand the concept of love instead they understand the feeling of love.  Love to a child is about how they feel not exactly what true love is and love in itself is very complex emotionally.  

A child understands true love, they love their parents, their friends, their family.
Either way... A childs ability to understand the extent of love is not the issue... A child understands that "love" can be like a really strong friendship.

Well we will disagree with that.  True love is understanding that it's not all about your emotions and at a child young age everything is about their emotions.  If love was binary then I would agree with what you say but love and explaining the different types between 2 different people isn't some simplistic message.

Machiavellian said:

I can tell you when I was growing up, I did not get exposed to any homosexual group until my teens but I know for a fact if I was exposed to content like that book while I was 5 years old and went to my mom or dad for context it would not be good.  Their bias on that issue is very set and even today, they are not very open minded on the subject.

Basically what I am saying is that there is a 2 edged sword to this type of material at this young age and there isn't always going to be the happy path where there is understanding and acceptance.  

Sorry to hear that.
Homosexuality though is here to stay and children should be taught about LGBT culture and issues... Not so that they don't offend LGBT people, but so if they ever come to terms with their sexuality at a later date they can feel confident that they are allowed to be themselves openly and not shunned away in a closet...

Plus you have the safety issue, the LGBT community isn't all rainbows, lollipops and sunshine, education helps in this aspect as well.

Clearly I am all for it, you aren't, we both have valid reasoning's for our stance.


Not sure what you are sorry for.  I am perfectly happy with my upbringing and my parents but just like any person, you are your own person.

Homesexuality has been here since time started, not sure if you have to tell me that it's here to stay.  I will say that no child needs to be taught about LGBT culture unless they want to learn about it.  It's not something that needs to be forced then any other culture and its definitely no different or special then any other culture.  I will definitely say I have a different stance but that's because I do not see the LGBT community any different than any other community.

If my children want to learn about LGBT community and culture more power to then but it will be their decision not someone else making it for them. 







SpokenTruth said:
5 year old: Daddy, what are those 2 people doing?
Dad: Getting married.
5 year old: Why?
Dad: Because they love each other.
5 year old: Oh. Ok.

Old Post, but we're talking about a main staple of the Islamic religion. Homosexuality is a hard no for them, and mocking them for their Islamic belief is islamophobia, isn't it?

Last edited by Azuren - on 06 June 2019

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SpokenTruth said:
Azuren said:

Old Post, but we're talking about a main staple of the Islamic religion. Homosexuality is a hard no for them, and moving them for their Islamic belief is islamophobia, isn't it?

Anybody and everybody. Muslim, Christian, agnostic, homophobe, etc...

Some people project their own prejudice, hate, fear, confusion and bigotry onto 5 year olds.

And both the LGBT and Islamic communities are opposed to one another. One attempts to teach the other's children values that go against their religion, and they respond by claiming those values are evil.

The question I was trying to get across its which side do you take? The islamaphobic side attempting to affect the other side's religious beliefs, or the side who believes homosexuality is a son and doesn't want it taught to their children? Either way, you'll be oppressing a community that is marginalized in the UK.



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DonFerrari said:
Pemalite said:

vivster said:

Companies are held to much more rules, you often will see prosecution against private companies but public companies being less likely to be persecuted.

There is no free service, it is covered by taxes and the lack of need of profit makes them less motivated. Usually you pay through taxes for a worse service with a government overhead.

Government and personal also have selfish and ideological reasons.

Shall I understand that you are calling me idiot?

Nonsense. There are more highly educated employees and greater job satisfaction in the public sector compared to the private sector. The most productive country in the world, Norway, has over 40% working in the public sector. China has 50% and it does nothing to slow down is growth. Wherever there is a systematic issue with productivity on the public sector, the same is often happening in the private sector.

Not to mention that, by definition, one could be biased to look at the very top of sucessful enterprises as examples of the private sector as more efficient, rather than the myriad of failed ones, or when they are failing, out of the spotlight. For even the very large private companies have a lifespan of less than 50 years, on average... hardly the kind of people you would want to manage continuing issues such as national security or education on the long term.

But this is going way, way off-topic.