Forums - Politics Discussion - At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

Encouraging prepubescent gender transformation is...

A good thing. Not child abuse. 10 14.93%
 
A bad thing. Child abuse. 40 59.70%
 
Depends on the situation. (In comments) 17 25.37%
 
Total:67

First bolded:I should not have typed "we" and should have typed what i personally thought about it but im pretty sure the OP his intention of this thread was not saying children shouldn't be supported but more children shouldn't be abused and i know you like to transform that because of the examples but his intention stays.(The examples are no proof of support OR abuse so to use those the transform the argument in this thread being against support is really silly)

Second bolded: If you say there is a sizable chance that someone with concerns gets shut down then you can also agree that there is a chance someone that should have no concerns can be pushed toward a wrong identity no?And what about childhood shizophrenia,have you thought about that?Or kids with autism that are socially confused?

And no your link to that research did not include children that are pushed into it so it is worthless to bring it up as argument.

Can you just understand that it is just not totally safe yet to assume ALL kids are better off with another gender when they ask for it?

Also the thread is totally not about children being supported, but that is just another assumption of you and that makes it very hard to get anything through to you and through the wall of ideology.I can say i kick my dog to support it but that doesnt make it actual support.

In the very first post he said:

"At what point is pushing (or even considering) a prepubescent child to question there gender considerd child abuse? For example Charlize theorn..."

it's right there "pushing (or even considering)". And then he uses two examples where there is no pushing evident just parents taking their kid's words for it and asks if this is child abuse. That's what I'm arguing against. This idea that a kid is just too young to think about these things and (because I assume anything more than this would be deemed considering) their questions should be ignored. I'm saying that age appropriate support should be provided based on psychological community consensus. That means allowing your kid to dress how they like for a while, then puberty blockers with the help of psychological professionals if that's what the child wants, then hormone therapy, then sex reassignment. 

Here are the situations I see:

situation 1: 
Child insists they are male or female
Parent insists they are the opposite of what the child claims (whether that means parents pushing kids to be trans or to be cis)

situation 2:
Child insists they are male or female
Parent works with the child to figure out this question doing their best to not push them one way or another but instead allow them to figure it out themselves. 

I'm in favor of situation 2 and against situation 1 regardless of if that results in someone being mistakenly thought of as Cis or trans. I'm never in favor of the parent pushing what they think the kid's gender identity should be on them. 

The research is indicating that if your child is trans you should be supportive and that leads to the best psychological outcomes, the thing I've been saying throughout this entire fucking thread. Not push them one way or another, be supportive. Every time we go through this you say "well what if the kids are pushed towards being trans" and I tell you again that I'm not in favor of that. Kids should be supported in working through these questions regardless of the answer they end up at. That seems to give the best outcomes for the child. If they decide they are trans, great, and if not that's great too. And obviously if one is considering the possibility that their child is trans they should see a professional before things get beyond letting them dress however they like. That should help with your questions of if the child has other psychological conditions that could confuse the situation. 

And again, you equate a parent helping a child work through their gender questions with physical abuse. Can you come up with an example that isn't obviously biased? 

Lastly, if we both agree that the kids should be supported in working through their gender identity then we agree. You say it's hard to get through to me, but I'm ready and waiting to agree with you. Just seems like every time I say "a kid should be supported through working out their gender" you say "well some kids are pushed towards being trans" and I say "yeah that's bad, they should be supported, not pushed" and we go round and around again. 

Last edited by Torillian - on 25 April 2019

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True story here.  My daughter is currently 8 years old.  Recounting events in chronological order in her short life thus far:

1) She wanted to marry daddy.

2) She wanted to marry her then best friend Neely (girl).

3) She claimed Trevor (boy) was going to marry her NUMEROUS of times.

Currently, she now cringes every time she sees affection such as two people kissing on television whether it's live action or animated.  Let me be clear that these are NOT phases she was going through.  She was just expressing herself as a developing kid.  In regards to relationships, she's seen straight, gay and lesbian relationships on screen.  We once had a lesbian couple that lived across from us with a daughter in which we always gotten along width.  In a nutshell, I'm teaching her that not everyone is going to agree on everything, and you live your life as the best person you can while appreciating others as you want to be appreciated.  And if others cannot look past what they don't agree with, that's their problem, not hers.

With all that said, Charlize Theron is a NUT.  I wouldn't call her actions (or lack there of) child abuse, but I would say that it's idiocy at best and parental neglect at worst (which that is arguably child abuse).  Even thought there are some men who are more feminine and some women more masculine, we have to accept the scientific biological fact that men and women are inherently different due to hormonal factors produced by organs that are specifically in men and women.  And then there's DNA.  Women are women and men are men. But how you express your sexuality is all your doing.  To borrow a cliche "Kids will say the darned things." But Charlize's son is a boy.  There is no room for argument, and no need for justification.  Now, if he prefers to play Barbie over Hot Wheels, that's a different scenario.  As a parent, you teach your children what's fact and what's opinion.  And then you allow your child a certain extent of moderated freedom to develop and mature that doesn't cross the line of chaos. Then you have to acknowledge that this will vary from household to household.  But for a parent to allow a child to determine his or her sex is undermining the authority of a parent and sets up a precedence of poor parental judgment as the child continues to voice and make more decisions as he or she develops.

Last edited by LivingMetal - on 26 April 2019

vivster said:
sundin13 said:
Your OP kind of frames the debate by using some loaded language that isn't really present in the examples. You claim that these parents are pushing their children, however in both examples you provided, it appears that the children are the ones who are being allowed to lead and express their own identities in the way they see fit. In my opinion, the only way to see such a thing as child abuse is if your own biases lead you to believe that Transgender identity is wrong in some way.

The parents pushed a gender on their child the moment they bought gendered toys and clothes.

So do we need a separate section at retailers for "gender less" items such as clothes, book and toys?  Who is to determine what those items are?  And specifically what sort of items do you suggest that should be marketed?



This child was adopted and its impossible to know whats going on without looking deeper into his history. One assumes the she has both the resources and time to seek the best in mental care for her son. I'm not a big fan of gender assignments in the first place. Just the other day, I was watching Cartoon Network, and I saw the advertisements they had clearly aimed at Girls/Boys and I found both to be a bit more than contrived. It made me realize that advertisers shoehorn children based solely on their sex. They teach us what a boy is and should like and what a girl is and what should want. The purpose of doing this is to make it easier to segment them into the most basic of categories.

Kids don't come out all acting or wanting the same thing. Isn't it child abuse to shoehorn children into categories that we define for them? To a certain extent, I think it is.
My boyfriend for example, is clearly a man, but is very effeminate in some of his actions, like and desires. He says to me sometimes that he gets depressed because he was told that he is an abomination by members of a certain church. I told him he is fine the way he is and to ignore the outside voices that want to control the way his life on such a personal level.

I have never sought to exert control over someone's opinion of their sexuality or gender identification. Why would that even be in my purview? Why are so many people concerned with making people do or act the way they see fit? You are wasting you time. Work on yourself! Live your life!



CosmicSex said:
This child was adopted and its impossible to know whats going on without looking deeper into his history. One assumes the she has both the resources and time to seek the best in mental care for her son. I'm not a big fan of gender assignments in the first place. Just the other day, I was watching Cartoon Network, and I saw the advertisements they had clearly aimed at Girls/Boys and I found both to be a bit more than contrived. It made me realize that advertisers shoehorn children based solely on their sex. They teach us what a boy is and should like and what a girl is and what should want. The purpose of doing this is to make it easier to segment them into the most basic of categories.

Kids don't come out all acting or wanting the same thing. Isn't it child abuse to shoehorn children into categories that we define for them? To a certain extent, I think it is.
My boyfriend for example, is clearly a man, but is very effeminate in some of his actions, like and desires. He says to me sometimes that he gets depressed because he was told that he is an abomination by members of a certain church. I told him he is fine the way he is and to ignore the outside voices that want to control the way his life on such a personal level.

I have never sought to exert control over someone's opinion of their sexuality or gender identification. Why would that even be in my purview? Why are so many people concerned with making people do or act the way they see fit? You are wasting you time. Work on yourself! Live your life!

are you a supporter of feminism?



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I always find it amusing when people assert that their opinion is correct over experts in a given field.

Expert: Here are thousands of studies, tests, trials, reports, papers, experience, etc....
Novice: You guys are all wrong because it goes against my cognitive bias.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

SpokenTruth said:
I always find it amusing when people assert that their opinion is correct over experts in a given field.

Expert: Here are thousands of studies, tests, trials, reports, papers, experience, etc....
Novice: You guys are all wrong because it goes against my cognitive bias.

you think being able to distinguish between men and women is something that needs to be validated by an expert?

my question is how can you be a feminist when your perception of what a woman is boils down to whether the person in question tells you they are a woman or not... in case you didn't know that's what the "experts" supporting this nonsense are claiming



o_O.Q said:
SpokenTruth said:
I always find it amusing when people assert that their opinion is correct over experts in a given field.

Expert: Here are thousands of studies, tests, trials, reports, papers, experience, etc....
Novice: You guys are all wrong because it goes against my cognitive bias.

1). you think being able to distinguish between men and women is something that needs to be validated by an expert?

2). my question is how can you be a feminist when your perception of what a woman is boils down to whether the person in question tells you they are a woman or not... in case you didn't know that's what the "experts" supporting this nonsense are claiming

1). When our simplistic delineation is incapable of adequately addressing the concept of biological sex, yes.

2). You are conflating biological sex with gender. You just proved why we need experts.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

1). you think being able to distinguish between men and women is something that needs to be validated by an expert?

2). my question is how can you be a feminist when your perception of what a woman is boils down to whether the person in question tells you they are a woman or not... in case you didn't know that's what the "experts" supporting this nonsense are claiming

1). When our simplistic delineation is incapable of adequately addressing the concept of biological sex, yes.

2). You are conflating biological sex with gender. You just proved why we need experts.

" When our simplistic delineation is incapable of adequately addressing the concept of biological sex"

and you think its incapable because exceptions such as intersex people exist? even though its understood that categorisations are not perfect, which is why we still hold human's as being bipedal even though people with 8 limbs are born?

"You are conflating biological sex with gender."

i did not, i stated exactly what the standards for identification are under this idiotic ideology

it is ironically you know do not understand this

since you disagree with me how would you differentiate between a man and a woman then?

Last edited by o_O.Q - on 17 May 2019

o_O.Q said:
SpokenTruth said:

1). When our simplistic delineation is incapable of adequately addressing the concept of biological sex, yes.

2). You are conflating biological sex with gender. You just proved why we need experts.

" When our simplistic delineation is incapable of adequately addressing the concept of biological sex"

1). and you think its incapable because exceptions such as intersex people exist? even though its understood that categorisations are not perfect, which is why we still hold human's as being bipedal even though people with 8 limbs are born?

"You are conflating biological sex with gender."

2). i did not, i stated exactly what the standards for identification are under this idiotic ideology

it is ironically you know do not understand this

since you disagree with me how would you differentiate between a man and a woman then?

1). People born with extra limbs are still bipedal.  They do not ambulate on their extra appendages.

Clinically speaking, there are 6 sexes (technically more but they don't reach full fetal development). X, XX, XXY, XY, XYY and XXXY.

2). You absolutely conflated sex with gender.  Feminism is about the gender, not the sex.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."