By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - At what point is this child abuse? Trans kids.

 

Encouraging prepubescent gender transformation is...

A good thing. Not child abuse. 10 14.93%
 
A bad thing. Child abuse. 40 59.70%
 
Depends on the situation. (In comments) 17 25.37%
 
Total:67
cycycychris said:

Graphical comparisons video.

SpokenTruth said:
JWeinCom said:

1). I think in general we should try to limit gender reassignment surgery as much as possible.  Not on any kind of moral grounds or anything, but simply on the basis that we always want to use the least extreme medical intervention as possible, and surgery is a pretty extreme option.  If a doctor/psychiatrist decides it's truly the best option, then I'm for it, but if there is a way to make trans people feel comfortable with themselves without surgery, I think that would be preferable.  

2). As for feeling trapped in a body, I just don't get that.  As a male, I really have no concept of what being a man means beyond physical factors and in most, but definitely not all, circumstances being more in line with societal expectations for a man than a woman.  I don't know what "feeling like a man" inside would mean beyond acting in line with societal expectations of a man. Maybe it's just one of those things you can't get unless you experience it.

1). But gender reassignment surgery is only undertaken if medically cleared.  I'll copy my text I posted earlier.

"You cannot just walk into a facility and get reassigned just because you want to. You have to pass a battery of prerequisites to qualify as a candidate. For most centers, you must be officially diagnosed with gender dysphoria, be recommended by 2 or more mental health specialists in the field, begin hormone treatment for at least 1 year, have a documented "living the life" test completed (proving you actually live as your claimed gender), are declared emotionally stable, are medically healthy, and (optionally, depending on facility) have the support of friends and family."

2). You are correct at the end. You and I will never likely experience that psychology and emotions. I'm cis male and cannot imagine what it must feel like to be in the wrong sex or gender but I can fully sympathize with those that do go through that because I understand the psychology behind it.

One does not need to have cancer to analyze it.

I'm not saying the surgery is wrong, I'm saying that it should be done as rarely as possible.  Like, I take antidepressants because I need them, but my goal with my psychiatrist is eventually get to the point where I don't need one.  Because any medication or surgery carries risks and downsides.  It's good we have safeguards in place to make sure it's only used when appropriately, but don't you agree it would be better if trans people could feel comfortable with themselves without needing it?

I can sympathize with people who have it because I get that they're going through something.  I understand psychological distress, even if I don't know their particular brand.  But sympathizing and understanding are two different things.



Around the Network
SpokenTruth said:
JWeinCom said:

I'm not saying the surgery is wrong, I'm saying that it should be done as rarely as possible.  Like, I take antidepressants because I need them, but my goal with my psychiatrist is eventually get to the point where I don't need one.  Because any medication or surgery carries risks and downsides.  It's good we have safeguards in place to make sure it's only used when appropriately, but don't you agree it would be better if trans people could feel comfortable with themselves without needing it?

I can sympathize with people who have it because I get that they're going through something.  I understand psychological distress, even if I don't know their particular brand.  But sympathizing and understanding are two different things.

Can I just say how much I really appreciate the unintentional inclusion of Xenoblade Chronicles into this thread.  It needed a touch of levity.

They always identified as anime characters.  Now they can live their truth.



Pemalite said:
JWeinCom said:

I think in general we should try to limit gender reassignment surgery as much as possible.  Not on any kind of moral grounds or anything, but simply on the basis that we always want to use the least extreme medical intervention as possible, and surgery is a pretty extreme option.  If a doctor/psychiatrist decides it's truly the best option, then I'm for it, but if there is a way to make trans people feel comfortable with themselves without surgery, I think that would be preferable.  

As for feeling trapped in a body, I just don't get that.  As a male, I really have no concept of what being a man means beyond physical factors and in most, but definitely not all, circumstances being more in line with societal expectations for a man than a woman.  I don't know what "feeling like a man" inside would mean beyond acting in line with societal expectations of a man. And I'm, not sure the gym example is comparable.  Like, do you feel that you want to be more muscular or fit than you are?  I get that.  But do you feel like you somehow really are that fit and muscular on the inside and it's just somehow not showing?  That I don't really get.  And from my understanding, being trans is less about wanting to be the other gender, but more of feeling that you already are.  

Maybe it's just one of those things you have to experience, and because I identify with the gender I was born as, I haven't ever really had to question it.  But it's still something I can't really wrap my head around.

I can't speak for other countries... But surgery is certainly a "last resort" here in Australia pretty much.
You need to actually have multiple evaluations, see a psychiatrist and more before you can attempt it from what I have been told by the Trans people in my life.

Then you have the cost... It cost my mate 10 thousand dollars for just the top surgery. (Removal of breasts.)
And bottom surgery is going to be more significant from a cost perspective... Something like 30 grand. - So it's not just a walk in the park by any stretch of the imagination.

Yes I feel less fit and muscular on the inside, or rather I don't feel I am what I should be physically, although other people will see my muscular definition and be pretty envious... It's difficult to explain, it's a dysphoria though.

It's good that it's a last resort.  But I think there are changes we could make to society in general to make it less necessary.  The cost honestly seems kind of reasonable.  Assuming you're using AUSD.  I mean, I had to pay 2000 for a root canal.  About three times that much for major surgery seems about right.  But maybe that's just from my perspective.

As for the rest of it... I guess I just still don't get it.  I get having a goal and feeling like you haven't reached it.  But that seems to be different than what you're trying to explain.



When i was 7 years old I wanted to be a Smurf. Would a judge force my parents to tatoo my skin in blue if i lived my childhood on this day and age?



I was actually going to bump this thread today. Seems a lot has been happening (EDIT) in the case where the father claimed that the mother was forcing their child to identify as transgendered (/EDIT).

Earlier this month, a jury ruled in favor of the mother, providing her with sole custody 11-1, however, earlier today, a judge overruled that decision, instead granting joint custody (and providing the father a say in medical decisions). I personally disagree with this ruling, and it is disgusting to see how both conservative media and conservative politicians have exploited this case and smeared the mother despite how transparently false the father's claims were. This will undoubtedly be very difficult and damaging for the child and her family.

EDIT:https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-right-weaponized-a-7-year-old-trans-child?source=articles&via=rss

Last edited by sundin13 - on 24 October 2019

Around the Network
sundin13 said:

I was actually going to bump this thread today. Seems a lot has been happening.

Earlier this month, a jury ruled in favor of the mother, providing her with sole custody 11-1, however, earlier today, a judge overruled that decision, instead granting joint custody (and providing the father a say in medical decisions). I personally disagree with this ruling, and it is disgusting to see how both conservative media and conservative politicians have exploited this case and smeared the mother despite how transparently false the father's claims were. This will undoubtedly be very difficult and damaging for the child and her family.

Would help if you were to name the case.



KLAMarine said:
sundin13 said:

I was actually going to bump this thread today. Seems a lot has been happening.

Earlier this month, a jury ruled in favor of the mother, providing her with sole custody 11-1, however, earlier today, a judge overruled that decision, instead granting joint custody (and providing the father a say in medical decisions). I personally disagree with this ruling, and it is disgusting to see how both conservative media and conservative politicians have exploited this case and smeared the mother despite how transparently false the father's claims were. This will undoubtedly be very difficult and damaging for the child and her family.

Would help if you were to name the case.

Oh, sorry, I think I got this mixed up with the newer version of this thread (which appears to have been closed?).

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-right-weaponized-a-7-year-old-trans-child?source=articles&via=rss

tldr: Father claims that mother is forcing child to be transgendered. Story gets picked up by a lot of (primarily conservative) news outlets, basically parroting the father's talking points that the child isn't truly transgendered. Turns out the father was basically lying about significant portions of his story.

Heres the video from the other thread which goes into a lot of detail on what happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvjHn6QEgh4&



sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

Would help if you were to name the case.

Oh, sorry, I think I got this mixed up with the newer version of this thread (which appears to have been closed?).

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-right-weaponized-a-7-year-old-trans-child?source=articles&via=rss

tldr: Father claims that mother is forcing child to be transgendered. Story gets picked up by a lot of (primarily conservative) news outlets, basically parroting the father's talking points that the child isn't truly transgendered. Turns out the father was basically lying about significant portions of his story.

Heres the video from the other thread which goes into a lot of detail on what happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvjHn6QEgh4&

What in particular was the father lying about?



KLAMarine said:
sundin13 said:

Oh, sorry, I think I got this mixed up with the newer version of this thread (which appears to have been closed?).

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-the-right-weaponized-a-7-year-old-trans-child?source=articles&via=rss

tldr: Father claims that mother is forcing child to be transgendered. Story gets picked up by a lot of (primarily conservative) news outlets, basically parroting the father's talking points that the child isn't truly transgendered. Turns out the father was basically lying about significant portions of his story.

Heres the video from the other thread which goes into a lot of detail on what happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvjHn6QEgh4&

What in particular was the father lying about?

One example is that he repeatedly made the claim that he provided the child the opportunity to decide for themselves what type of clothing they wanted to wear when speaking to the media. However, in court documents, he admitted that he did not actually have any female clothing in his house. This is basically an admission that his entire assertion that it was the child's choice to not identify as a female when with the father was false.

He was also lying about the impact his religion had on his beliefs about his child's gender identity and I believe there were several false statements regarding the psychological evaluations of the child.

There is a lot of info in the video I posted earlier if you are interested including readings from the court transcripts which I haven't seen any print media discuss.