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Pemalite said:
ConservagameR said:

The US also wants everyone else to be better. Not everyone is good at everything. Who's the best most correct nation in the world?

Like Japan should do better with their gun laws. Look at what just happened there because of how lax they are. Or are they?

I never asserted that everyone is good at everything. But the USA doesn't rank number 1 in any social aspects.

Japan had a casualty from their extremely strict gun laws, yes, it was also a higher profile target that ended up making the news.
But the fact is, their gun control works and still works... They have one of the worlds lowest rates of gun-related crime in the world.

Grasping as straws? The US isn't number 1 in any and all social aspects? Not very specific especially to the original points made.

Also, why does being number 1 matter? Are all nations who are number 2 or less, horrible, terrible, try to do better nations?

Are social aspects only of importance or are they just higher priority vs everything else? Is there anything that's top priority across time?

High profile death means little to nothing. A gun death is a gun death. It's not like Abe was destined to be targeted and killed by a gunman.

What does making the news matter? If it didn't make the news, would it no longer be a concern or less of a concern perhaps?

If it works, then can I assume that any nation that ever reduce(d)(s) gun deaths has a working formula? If not, how much and for how long?

Pemalite said:
ConservagameR said:

The US has 125 years on Australia as a nation, as to my prior point about different country history. Before that time, yes, much more similar.

How much of the world consumes or depends on America vs Australia? Which country worldwide has the most immigrants?

There is no too different point being made, just that everything is different and unique in it's own way. It's a big part of America's troubled past.

The Greek and Roman systems led to other great, better systems, and the British or Euro system has led to the same as it branched out, yes.

Dependence of a nation isn't really a sensible approach.
Australia is a resource rich nation that underpins the entire planets manufacturing.

Culturally, historically, ethically we are similar nations. Not the same. Similar.
And regardless of how similar or different we are, doesn't erode the fact that a functional healthcare system and gun control is more than possible in any country, it seems you are grasping at straws now to find *any* reason not to support those policies.

Grasping at straws? What does Australia being resource rich have anything to do with the original points made?

How similar? Is Australia an irredeemably racist nation? Are most problems said to be partially, or mostly due to past or present racism? Does the media proclaim that to the world on a daily basis? Would it be true? What if it wasn't?

I agree better healthcare and gun control is possible in any nation. How and when that happens I don't agree is as simple as you purpose.

Pemalite said:
ConservagameR said:

Maybe not all the problems that exist in America exist in Australia, and maybe those problems are in the way or a distraction from other problems.

I think it's safe to say the US people are more alike to each other than Americans are to Australians, yet with common ancestry.

Not all problems that exist in Australia, exist in America. What's your point?

My neighbor is a doctor, from the USA, she is very much one of us and we are of you, our culture, language, history have similar beginnings.

Maybe it's not as easy to fix the problems when you have other problems in the way, sometimes put in the way, consistently.

We have similar pasts, and while gaps widened once nations, they are becoming more alike again. Though more American as you stated earlier. Still doesn't change the fact that the nations and cultures as a whole still are relatively different, which is why such differences exist today. It's not simply just a problem of time.

Everybody has their problems, and not all exist right now. If for example China ever get's the same military mindset as America, which they're working their way towards, Taiwan may have to take her defense more serious than she does now, and even then, if the time ever came where China could seriously be a concern, they'd almost certainly have to call on America if it ever came down to it, and not in the hysterically laughable way it has been dealt with as to Ukraine. I'm sure that American bloodthirst would be condemned worldwide if it took place to save Taiwan, and then the world would totally back off America's homeland gun and violence issues for a while afterwards while she attempted to tame herself once more. I'm sure that won't be how it's seen and treated that is.

Pemalite said:
ConservagameR said:

That being so, how is America going to come together in an Australian manner if they can't get along and agree between themselves as Americans?

You don't need to be an Australian to have Gun control and a functional healthcare system and a high standard of living.
Plenty of other nations with different cultures and languages have achieved parity in many of those areas.

You seem to think that if Australia can do it by now, so can the US, but you also seem to agree there are differences between the nations, as small as you might think they are. Well people nor nations are all the same, or change to become the same, or make that happen in the exact same manner in the exact same amount of time. Every person or nation does things differently because it has different levels of priority along with different levels of corruption.

Plenty of other nations would've been doomed decades ago if it wasn't for the US war machine and love for weapons like guns, and the same still holds true today. That doesn't seem true due to the present Ukraine situation, but that's simply due to American leadership at present. There's a very clear reason why Ukraine wasn't messed with in the prior administration, and it's not because Russia wasn't quite ready or Ukraine itself wasn't prime for invasion.

If America having comparable heath care and gun deaths to Australia led to more and more Ukraine situations, likely worse, would that be better if that's how it ended up turning out? Maybe, maybe not, but if it did, then what?



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ConservagameR said:

Grasping as straws? The US isn't number 1 in any and all social aspects? 

Also, why does being number 1 matter? Are all nations who are number 2 or less, horrible, terrible, try to do better nations?

Are social aspects only of importance or are they just higher priority vs everything else? Is there anything that's top priority across time?

What does making the news matter? If it didn't make the news, would it no longer be a concern or less of a concern perhaps?

If it works, then can I assume that any nation that ever reduce(d)(s) gun deaths has a working formula? If not, how much and for how long?

Grasping at straws? What does Australia being resource rich have anything to do with the original points made?

How similar? Is Australia an irredeemably racist nation? Are most problems said to be partially, or mostly due to past or present racism? Does the media proclaim that to the world on a daily basis? Would it be true? What if it wasn't?

If America having comparable heath care and gun deaths to Australia led to more and more Ukraine situations, likely worse, would that be better if that's how it ended up turning out? Maybe, maybe not, but if it did, then what?

Are you familiar with the term 'sealioning'?



ConservagameR said:
sundin13 said:

You're going to have to explain what your point is here, because I have a lot to say about what I think you're saying, but I want to be sure first.

You're going to have to explain first what exactly you need explained further and how in depth, and to an acceptable degree. I'm not going to lay out every single thing every other nation than America does worse or simply doesn't do good enough.

Why are the actions of other nations relevant? Should we not strive for improvement instead of just saying "Eh, everybody sucks somewhere so let's just keep sucking"?

Also, what is your point regarding Japan? Is the insinuation that their gun laws are a failure, or that the US shouldn't institute similar gun laws because a firearm related homicide occurred recently?



ConservagameR said:

Grasping as straws? The US isn't number 1 in any and all social aspects? Not very specific especially to the original points made.

It's very specific.
Health care, quality of care, standard of living, welfare, life expectancy, human development index, education... And more all fall under that banner.
And guess what? The USA often doesn't even rank in the top 10.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_of_life_index_by_country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_quality_of_healthcare

I rest my case on that point.

The USA is numero number 1 when it comes to incarceration rates though... And your gun crime is a serious issue.

Not great.

So is that grasping at straws? Hell no.

ConservagameR said:

Also, why does being number 1 matter? Are all nations who are number 2 or less, horrible, terrible, try to do better nations?

You see, the USA likes to spruce "capitalism" and "competition" as bonuses in contrast to socialist/communist ideas and markets.. But in various indexes, the USA still falls short.

I want the nation to strive to be better, I want them to compete... That just benefits everyone, especially the American people.

ConservagameR said:

Are social aspects only of importance or are they just higher priority vs everything else? Is there anything that's top priority across time?

If a country with a population of almost 330~ million and a GDP of 20~ trillion can only focus on one issue... Then I am afraid you have some big issues.

Why does anything have to come at the expense of something else? We haven't given up on welfare in favor of healthcare. Why not do both?

ConservagameR said:

High profile death means little to nothing. A gun death is a gun death. It's not like Abe was destined to be targeted and killed by a gunman.

What does making the news matter? If it didn't make the news, would it no longer be a concern or less of a concern perhaps?

If it works, then can I assume that any nation that ever reduce(d)(s) gun deaths has a working formula? If not, how much and for how long?

You will not get any argument from me there. I see death daily. We all end up with a foot in the grave at some point... Doesn't matter what race, gender, age, sexuality, wealth or more.

Japan and Australia's gun control has been effective for decades, even if Australia gets a mass shooting tomorrow, Gun control still worked and it was worth the lives it has saved.

How much do you value a life? Have you ever put your life on the line to save another? Where do you draw your line of empathy?

ConservagameR said:

Grasping at straws? What does Australia being resource rich have anything to do with the original points made?

You are running yourself around in circles.
You posited the original question, I replied, now you find the reply not acceptable?

ConservagameR said:

How similar? Is Australia an irredeemably racist nation? Are most problems said to be partially, or mostly due to past or present racism? Does the media proclaim that to the world on a daily basis? Would it be true? What if it wasn't?

There is racism in every country.
Australia is very... And I mean very, multi-cultural.

We have strict border controls too.

But I am not entirely sure what you are trying to achieve with this point?

ConservagameR said:

I agree better healthcare and gun control is possible in any nation. How and when that happens I don't agree is as simple as you purpose.

It is very simple. Just get on with it.

You see... Australia had a "trigger event" which was the Port Arthur gun massacre, after that horrific event there was a massive social, political and national push to make a change to make our country safer, better and do our best to prevent that from occurring again.
Prior to that we were having a gun massacre frequently. (relative to our population)

We haven't had one since.

The issue the USA has is the gun lobby and the pro-gun supporters which are holding the country back from making positive, constructive and forward-thinking changes.
It's not the 1920's anymore.

ConservagameR said:

Maybe it's not as easy to fix the problems when you have other problems in the way, sometimes put in the way, consistently.

You are just reinforcing my prior and original points that the USA has systemic issues and falls short of being successful in many areas of society.

ConservagameR said:

We have similar pasts, and while gaps widened once nations, they are becoming more alike again. Though more American as you stated earlier. Still doesn't change the fact that the nations and cultures as a whole still are relatively different, which is why such differences exist today. It's not simply just a problem of time.

You are missing the point that it does NOT matter how different or similar a country is, you can have gun control and universal healthcare.

ConservagameR said:

Everybody has their problems, and not all exist right now. If for example China ever get's the same military mindset as America, which they're working their way towards, Taiwan may have to take her defense more serious than she does now, and even then, if the time ever came where China could seriously be a concern, they'd almost certainly have to call on America if it ever came down to it, and not in the hysterically laughable way it has been dealt with as to Ukraine. I'm sure that American bloodthirst would be condemned worldwide if it took place to save Taiwan, and then the world would totally back off America's homeland gun and violence issues for a while afterwards while she attempted to tame herself once more. I'm sure that won't be how it's seen and treated that is.

The USA is not the worlds police, China has more resources, population, greater growth, manufacturing and sheer potential to overtake the USA. It's just a matter of when.
Trump didn't do much to halt that, like he promised.

However, it also doesn't matter if China becomes more powerful than the USA.

The British solidified the "western world" as an allied force even before the USA gained prominence as a super power during WW2.

And that is the key word "Allied". - No one goes it alone, China still falls short of the UK, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, United States and many Latin America/African nations... Combined.

As for Ukraine... That writing was on the wall before Biden even came along... Or is your memory so short when Russia downed flight MH17 over Ukraine in 2014? This isn't a new conflict, it's just a new and different phase.

ConservagameR said:

You seem to think that if Australia can do it by now, so can the US, but you also seem to agree there are differences between the nations, as small as you might think they are. Well people nor nations are all the same, or change to become the same, or make that happen in the exact same manner in the exact same amount of time. Every person or nation does things differently because it has different levels of priority along with different levels of corruption.

Plenty of other nations would've been doomed decades ago if it wasn't for the US war machine and love for weapons like guns, and the same still holds true today. That doesn't seem true due to the present Ukraine situation, but that's simply due to American leadership at present. There's a very clear reason why Ukraine wasn't messed with in the prior administration, and it's not because Russia wasn't quite ready or Ukraine itself wasn't prime for invasion.

If America having comparable heath care and gun deaths to Australia led to more and more Ukraine situations, likely worse, would that be better if that's how it ended up turning out? Maybe, maybe not, but if it did, then what?


Yes. If Australia can do it, so can the USA. Differences or not are irrelevant, you have already taken note of that. (Japan v Australia.)

Yes, the USA has done some great good for many nations... But also done the opposite, more recently in the Middle East.

Nor is anyone asking the USA to give up it's military prowess in order to get better healthcare or gun control, you CAN do all three at the same time, nothing is stopping you except for irrelevant excuses.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Siding with criminals over workers? Is the left seeking to rid us of our right to self defense?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnmO5OD__BM



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KLAMarine said:

Siding with criminals over workers? Is the left seeking to rid us of our right to self defense?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnmO5OD__BM

Where was the "left" mentioned in the video, was the "left" associated in anyway with the first decision in some other source or is it just you assuming?

This is the first time I hear about this story and there's not much info.

The arrest may still be warranted if for instance the aggressor was stabbed an outrageous amount of time suggesting the defendant was at some point no more acting in self defense. Same if the aggressor attempted to flee at some point and still got stabbed. 



EpicRandy said:
KLAMarine said:

Siding with criminals over workers? Is the left seeking to rid us of our right to self defense?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnmO5OD__BM

Where was the "left" mentioned in the video, was the "left" associated in anyway with the first decision in some other source or is it just you assuming?

This is the first time I hear about this story and there's not much info.

The arrest may still be warranted if for instance the aggressor was stabbed an outrageous amount of time suggesting the defendant was at some point no more acting in self defense. Same if the aggressor attempted to flee at some point and still got stabbed. 

As you can see its going to be marketed as a Left, Woke or some other BS as we see with Klamarine post because its fits whatever narrative he is trying to build.  If you cannot find anything to get upset about then manufacturing something is always a go to move.



Yeah that news clip doesn't provide much information. There's plenty of possible reasons for murder charges but without the full story it's just speculation. I do wonder why would something like this be a right vs left thing though. Surely even Right should agree you aren't automatically allowed to kill anyone who threatens or pushes you?



KiigelHeart said:

Surely even Right should agree you aren't automatically allowed to kill anyone who threatens or pushes you?

The popularity of Stand Your Ground/Castle Doctrine in red states suggests otherwise.



EpicRandy said:
KLAMarine said:

Siding with criminals over workers? Is the left seeking to rid us of our right to self defense?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnmO5OD__BM

Where was the "left" mentioned in the video, was the "left" associated in anyway with the first decision in some other source or is it just you assuming?

This is the first time I hear about this story and there's not much info.

The arrest may still be warranted if for instance the aggressor was stabbed an outrageous amount of time suggesting the defendant was at some point no more acting in self defense. Same if the aggressor attempted to flee at some point and still got stabbed. 

District Attorney Alvin Bragg's political affiliation is with the Democratic party.

Alvin Bragg Jr. - Ballotpedia

Alvin Bragg - Wikipedia