Yeah I just plain do not understand this 'well this person did some good so they're not bad' mentality. Like, whatever happened to all those times black folks got shot in the back for having marijuana despite being otherwise good people? I mean, it seems pretty biased, to me.

Or bipartisan.

Or willfully ignorant.

Either way, Donating to a cause or two to offset all the bad you've said and done isn't a good deed, it's good PR. IT's like the argument my sister and I had ages ago about PewDiePie and whether or not he was a good person or not because he 'donated to charity a lot'. My sister's stance was that since he did in fact donate to charity, his existence was a net positive gain to the world, while I said that the only reason he did that was to make up for all the shitty things he said and did. his charitable donations aren't an act of altruism but a PR stunt to make the 'Death to all Jews' joke backlash go away.

If I go around punching puppies all afternoon but give 20 bucks to a homeless man, I'm still a shitty puppy puncher. If Rush Limbaugh was a racist, ignorant piece of shit for the majority of his life and used his considerable wealth and power to dehumanize and indirectly harm entire groups of minorities and sow the seeds of doubt concerning the health risks of smoking but donated to a few charities, he's still a bigot using his power for evil and an ignorant moron using his power to set progress back.

I, for one, do celebrate his death. I don't condone violence or murder or anything, but the world is an objectively better place without him in it.

Oh I have no doubt that the plan is to get to 60 votes, the question is how long.  How long are you willing to wait for that 60 votes.  If the Dems do not keep control in 2022, what then, are you willing to wait until 2024.  So if the plan is not to get those 60 votes through compromise or even move the needle forward, then basically you are saying its either all or nothing.

So you believe so much in this plan because its not like anything from your links just happened yesterday, this has been going on for decades so why would anything change overnight compared to before.  You act as if Bernie only now just stepped onto the scene, so why would anything change now compared to before.  You seem to act as if advertising about inequality has only been raised now but its been raised for decades, what has changed now compared to the past.  I am still not seeing why you believe change is going to happen suddenly just because Bernie wills it.  Hell, Obama preached that same "Change is coming" then got into the White House and found out just how tough it is to get anything done.  

I just do not see, it.  I do not see the change now compared to the past that would get you 60 votes for progressive policies if your stance is all or nothing.  You had 74 million people vote to keep things exactly the same.  The Dems lost 10 seats in the house and barely gained majority in the Senate.  Hell if Trump actually didn't peddle the whole fraud case, its highly unlikely that Georgia would have gone blue.  Actually you should send Trump a thank you note for Dems, Republican and independent turnout because if not for him, the chance of Bernie glorious plan would be even more far fetched.

Either way, I believe we have ran this discussion to the ground.  As I have stated, action and results matter more than rhetoric.  I await to see the change this plan will reap in 2 years.  A lot can happen so lets see how America, especially conservative America really is ready for a more progressive plan.  If any of the conservatives who I know are any indication, Texas would need to freeze for the next 3 years before you see them budge.

Not to forget that he left his dog home alone during their trip to Cancun...

It's as if now that Trump is gone Mitch and Ted are having a contest to regain the "worst human" title.

No I wouldn't(But I'm not a progressive Senator), that's actually a very good outcome, but I suspect the Progressives could/would make a separate bill soon after to push for the $15, always keeping the pressure on, not just leaving it as a done deal, they educate, they chip away, they try different tactics, they invite the people to have a say, and they don't respect party lines.. I guess with the way the Dems have historically been is to make a compromised deal then walk away happy they made a deal and move on, maybe for decades, not a good strategy, it hasn't worked for those that need change, which are most of us   

I am not the all seeing eye, neither are you or anyone, situations can call for different strategies at different times, but the one strategy that has failed consistently is "we just compromise on every issue and walk away strategy", it has failed, we just have to look at the US now and it's shocking issues, the US has failed in so many indicators for the working people... by looking at bringing the people back in from the cold to take back control from Rich Cynical Senators (Dems and Reps) is all the progressive's are trying to do, we should be more open to developing those ideas, not blocking      

Then let me kindly ask: What the fuck are we arguing about?

This is literally what I said, like, 10 pages ago. We should fight to gain all the ground we can, take that ground and then get right back to fighting and guess what? That bill that is the product of fighting to gain all the ground we can, is fundamentally a compromise bill.

So what the fuck are we doing here? You've spent the last week calling me a moderate for holding this exact position and now you reveal that it is the same exact position you hold. I'm glad that we can come to a consensus, but I feel like it just highlights how inane the whole Anti-Compromise stance you've been arguing truly is... Compromise is necessary. That doesn't mean we stop fighting once we get the bill out the door, it just means that this isn't an all-or-nothing thing. We move in steps. 

Quite a few things to unpack there

This is a long term process that will facilitate rapid progressive change, much like moving a steam train, you have to slowly break the inertia, once moving the speed will pick up dramatically and constant positive change will be the eventual outcome

Those links do show the issues that have existed for decades in huge part due to the ineptitude of the Est. Dems and Reps, business as usual wont work, we have already tested it, in a lab it would been thrown out by now  

The Progressives aren't about "all or nothing", they are just not about "Done and Done", they will involve the people to take back control from Rich Cynical Senators (Dems and Reps) who have done compromised deals and walked away happy for themselves and no one else, the abysmal state of the US for the working people is proof of that   

Yes Bernie has been at it for years, decades, he has been mostly alone and quite powerless outside his own state, it's his unrelating consistent message of decency around peoples lives that has finally caught on as the way it should have been done all along, as the Est. system of policy development has now proven over decades to be a complete failure, and it's really only catching on with those that suffer the most, the Est. Rich/Powerful (Dem and Rep) have shown only distain up until now for Bernie    

As for Texas, now that the Rep Media and Politicians have been exposed as liars on what happened to the power in that state and Sen. Cruz's disregard for the optics of him moving to warmer climes, people are getting really angry at what's going on, interestingly some of the focus is moving to the US's poorly adapted infrastructure to Climate Change, this situation is an open invitation to not just play a war of words and point score which only alienates people, but start a serious long term progressive education campaign in that state, times are a changing     

I'm happy to leave it here, as you have said we have thrashed it out :)

We all have common ground, its hard to express that in posts when emotions get involved

The Est. "Moderate" Dems make compromises the corner stone of everything they do, and they make bad ones, the example of the compromise you presented was so far off what has happened in the past that it looked really good lol  

But its really how the Est Dems have compromised that make them bad ones, we basically haven't agreed on the strategy on how to govern and influence, it's been about how the Est. Dems haven't involved the people and just make the decisions and heavy compromises for them, the Est. play this game cynically by not involving the people, if the people were to be involved as the progressive plan try's to do, then the results and "compromises" could be very different in favour of the working people, not dead in the water deals the Est. Dems are use to producing  

The Est. Dems have never really pushed any agenda affecting the working people, they sit down, do deals then move on, no one outside their Elite group get a real say, this "business as usual" model has resulted in these poor outcomes for the US, Progressives are far less likely to let bad compromises go and move on because they are always talking to the people, they have a different way and it doesn't involve just talk amongst the Elites    

Interesting development with Neera Tanden's nomination to run the Office of Management and Budget (Biden's Pick), Progressive's don't respect her and don't what her in that roll because of her right leaning views, but the irony is a far right Dem. Joe Manchin is rejecting her for being a progressive, this is sweet irony :)

What a clown fiesta. How is Manchin the only vote against her? He should be the last person to vote against her, yet here we are.