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Now that is out of he way, there are still the criminal charges that Trump will answer for, you can not just incite a riot



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Expert: Biden Can Eliminate ALL Student Debt By Executive Order, he has the power, he can avoid the senate all together, he could change the lives of people for generations, but will he? 

Last edited by Rab - on 13 February 2021

I'm a bit torn between wanting to 1) see Trump imprisoned for the short remainder of his life and 2) seeing him start a new party and destroying the GOP in the process. Of course option 3 is that neither happens, which I don't relish. He'll probably be convicted of some lesser crimes that he won't serve time for and whether the GOP can bribe him enough to stick with them will be a coin toss.



RolStoppable said:
sundin13 said:

Impeachment is over. Seven Republican senators voted to convict leaving the President, making the final vote 43-57. As this falls short of the two-thirds threshold, Trump has been found "Not Guilty". That said, the fact that seven members of his own party voted to convict is very much significant.

Now we can move on to Covid relief in full force.

Good stuff. I am looking forward to Trump running again in 2024.

I really hope he does run in 2024 because that would be absolutly great.  Nothing motivate people more than Trump and that is both sides of the isle.  I still do not believe he will actually run but probably at least pretend to get some of that sweet campaign money but it should be interesting and a lot can happen in 4 years.



Rab said:
Machiavellian said:

Lol, I actually would say that Sundin makes a very good case and example then I when it comes to something like M4A because after going to a lot of right wing sites, it really is how you ask the question.  What I found is that the majority of Republicans absolutely are against a system where the government is the only option which as Sundin stated is not very popular but what is popular is something along Bidens plan where you have an option to keep what you have or go with the government option.  There is support for a single payer option but even amoung Dems its not M4A that is the popular health plan.

What I find funny is that you continue to state that no movement is just as bad as nothing at all because that is pretty much what you are advocating for.  Nothing that you have given gets you anything done now.  Actually, nothing that you have stated gets you anything done period if you ask me because hoping on some campaign that will suddenly make Republican constituents start to vote Democrate or suddenly have GOP elected officials start to advocate Bernie plans is the ultimate in wishful thinking.  Anyway, nothing will be decided anytime soon so lets see what happens in 2 years.  If the GOP take either the house or Senate back, we will see how much progressive they will be especially with a Dem president.  It would be Obama presidency all over again with you hoping for some movement but nothing happens because no one knows how to get something done but retreat to their partisan bubble.

Again you say nothing but deliberate deflection

Sundin has a "moderate" agenda like yourself, "How you ask the Question" is a BS false flag that is used to undermine how popular M4A is as a basic idea

When you have a great base for an idea to grow then you have a platform, that's the whole point of ad campaigns and canvasing, you educate people, and if the base idea is popular you have a great chance of success... education is the key people, not hard to understand really

Still haven't addressed the fact that the "Moderate" Dem compromises have resulted in little benefit to the working poor for decades, even gun control has seen virtually no progress after decades in the spotlight even when the majority of voters want to see gun control, ""Moderate" Senators and their compromises have achieved next to nothing and lives of thousands have been lost 

Go ahead and deflect again, I'm waiting  

    

And still you seem to avoid the basic question.  You still have nothing for getting anything done now when people are in need but you believe that the Dems can just wait until some pie in the sky political campaign change Republican constituents.

I am perfectly find with the Dems growing M4A but its not the only option and its definitely not the one that will get done within the next 2 years or better.  The Biden plan has way more chance since it gives an option which has more support from all sides not just the Progressives.  You are basically saying its either what I think is best or nothing at all and in your world, nothing at all is all you will see.  You rather go for the long ball hoping for the hail Mary instead of taking the short option and driving down to score points.  

As for the Moderate Dems, I believe you just do not get it.  It doesn't matter what the moderate Dems compromise has done or not done.  What matter is that you have NO choice but to deal with them or nothing gets done.  You need 60 votes, and you still avoid this very simple very plain situation in the Senate which you have no answer for besides some advertising in those Senator states like that doesn't get done ever election.

The person who is deflecting is you because we still have the same question and the same problem.  How do you get to 60 votes. How do you get any Republican to vote on Progressive policies.  How do you get the moderate Dems to vote when they are in right leaning states.  You have this huge hope in some poll you read as if that's the only qualification to change voters minds to support any particular bill or policy.  Lets see how far M4A gets with the current Senate since you believe in this poll so much. Lets see how far the minimum wage increase gets if the Dems do not deal with Joe.  We can argue these points forever but only results count.

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 13 February 2021

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Not surprised Trump was acquitted again. I didn't see a possibility where 17 of the Republicans would vote to convict him.

Anyway, I think the only thing that needs to be left out of the Democratic COVID-19 bill is the minimum wage increase part. Although a minimum wage increase should be done at some point, I think it needs to be separate from the bill because it doesn't really have anything to do with the pandemic. Also, all of the Democrats are needed to get the bill passed through budget reconciliation. If one of them votes no to it, then it's screwed.



Machiavellian said:
Rab said:

Again you say nothing but deliberate deflection

Sundin has a "moderate" agenda like yourself, "How you ask the Question" is a BS false flag that is used to undermine how popular M4A is as a basic idea

When you have a great base for an idea to grow then you have a platform, that's the whole point of ad campaigns and canvasing, you educate people, and if the base idea is popular you have a great chance of success... education is the key people, not hard to understand really

Still haven't addressed the fact that the "Moderate" Dem compromises have resulted in little benefit to the working poor for decades, even gun control has seen virtually no progress after decades in the spotlight even when the majority of voters want to see gun control, ""Moderate" Senators and their compromises have achieved next to nothing and lives of thousands have been lost 

Go ahead and deflect again, I'm waiting  

    

And still you seem to avoid the basic question.  You still have nothing for getting anything done now when people are in need but you believe that the Dems can just wait until some pie in the sky political campaign change Republican constituents.

I am perfectly find with the Dems growing M4A but its not the only option and its definitely not the one that will get done within the next 2 years or better.  The Biden plan has way more chance since it gives an option which has more support from all sides not just the Progressives.  You are basically saying its either what I think is best or nothing at all and in your world, nothing at all is all you will see.  You rather go for the long ball hoping for the hail Mary instead of taking the short option and driving down to score points.  

As for the Moderate Dems, I believe you just do not get it.  It doesn't matter what the moderate Dems compromise has done or not done.  What matter is that you have NO choice but to deal with them or nothing gets done.  You need 60 votes, and you still avoid this very simple very plain situation in the Senate which you have no answer for besides some advertising in those Senator states like that doesn't get done ever election.

The person who is deflecting is you because we still have the same question and the same problem.  How do you get to 60 votes. How do you get any Republican to vote on Progressive policies.  How do you get the moderate Dems to vote when they are in right leaning states.  You have this huge hope in some poll you read as if that's the only qualification to change voters minds to support any particular bill or policy.  Lets see how far M4A gets with the current Senate since you believe in this poll so much. Lets see how far the minimum wage increase gets if the Dems do not deal with Joe.  We can argue these points forever but only results count.

Deflection again.. no surprise ;)

I have given you Bernie's strategy for a stalemate situation of convincing the electorate to change a senators mind instead (not going to repeat the details a 5th time), but instead of trying something new you think a "moderate" Dem strategy of compromise that has achieved next to nothing in decades for the working poor will suddenly work now, dream on :/  

And yes it does matter what the moderate Dems compromise has done or not done, what a cop out, it matters when you already know the non-result of trying to do the same again, basic logic

Obviously your not personally desperate enough to give a damn if your happy to wait further decades even for gun control let alone M4A, it obviously does not affect you personally  

Waiting on your next deflection 

Last edited by Rab - on 14 February 2021

Trumpstyle said:

Kyrsten Sinema also seems to be against minimun wage increase, so not only Joe Manchin

"What’s important is whether or not it’s directly related to short-term Covid relief. And if it’s not, then I am not going to support it in this legislation,” Sinema said in a telephone interview this week. “The minimum wage provision is not appropriate for the reconciliation process. It is not a budget item. And it shouldn’t be in there."

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/02/12/kyrsten-sinema-democrats-468768

...

sundin13 said:

Impeachment is over. Seven Republican senators voted to convict leaving the President, making the final vote 43-57. As this falls short of the two-thirds threshold, Trump has been found "Not Guilty". That said, the fact that seven members of his own party voted to convict is very much significant.

...

Man, fuck this on both counts! That's all I can say.



Alright, I ought to highlight that those GOP members who refused to acquit were also "in safe zones" since they were either just voted in or will be retiring. To get a real feel of the situation, you need to look at those whose constituents might vote them out against their will: all of them sided with Trump, even endorsing his claims at some point.

I think it's clear the GOP is officially his party now.

Also, for perspective, my list of US Presidents from best to worse.

1. Grover Cleveland (no interventionism unless it was to prevent a shooting war)
2. Abraham Lincoln (opposed the annexation of Mexican territory and saved the Union while freeing the slaves)
3. Franklin D Roosevelt (Good Neighbor policy + WPA + Marshall Plan
4. Bill Clinton (despite the Lewinsky scandal, he was fairly good... his wife... err, just look at Argentina to get an idea about the quality drop)
5. John F Kennedy (this man wanted to destroy the CIA. Lord save this man!)
6. Jimmy Carter (since he ruled over a period of relative calm, he gets my vote)
7. Warren G Harding (distaste for war again gets you several points in my book)
8. Donald Trump (sending more death machines to Yemen sucked and the Israel and Iran shenanigans were worse, but this guy stands out for opening no wars compared to every predecessor before him)
9. George W Bush (Dubya deserves prison time way more than 45th.
10. Ronald "I would've loved to strangle this guy to death" Reagan. (No he didn't kill the USSR, nationalism (irony) did. This guy just ruined social policy for every president afterwards, doomed millennials and beyond in the US and mined the harbor of a country that didn't like him and didn't pay a penny for it. F*** Ronald Reagan and every American who likes him (even if this means telling the whole of America "f*** you"))
...
46. Dwight D Eisenhower... also known as "Latin America started poor and poor they must stay! I wouldn't have minded trying out medieval torture methods on this man... or John McCain... Or the Dulles Brothers... or Pavlavi... or any . UFC/Dole exec prior to 1999... or every crackpot dictator to have ever received an American thumbs up. I can't stress this enough. FUCK THIS GUY IN HELL!



TallSilhouette said:

I'm a bit torn between wanting to 1) see Trump imprisoned for the short remainder of his life and 2) seeing him start a new party and destroying the GOP in the process. Of course option 3 is that neither happens, which I don't relish. He'll probably be convicted of some lesser crimes that he won't serve time for and whether the GOP can bribe him enough to stick with them will be a coin toss.

You can have both. Throw him in prison and see a new party emerge that just wants to elect a president to pardon him. Of course all members and voters of that party are morons and don't realize that splitting the vote won't get them elected. It's a win win.



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