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Dark_Lord_2008 said:

I have been educated by Fox News and Alex Jones on Info Wars that give us the real facts.

Alex Jones and Info Wars is fake news. Convince me otherwise.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Americans must re-elect Trump to protect Americans and Keep America Great Again!

Well, no, Americans don't have to do anything, they can use the power of democratic free speech to elect whoever furthers their interests.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Trump is Making America Great Again. He has reduced unemployment rates and businesses are booming in the US and the stock market is reaching new record heights. Mr Trump is man of Strong confidence and the American Economy is stronger than ever!

That was happening without trump anyway as the USA was exiting a recession.

sundin13 said:

3) This point is changing the argument. The argument is about whether accidents should be discussed in relation to gun control laws. They should. End of story.

When it comes to gun control laws, all aspects should be discussed.

Gun control works though, which is something I hope the Americans realize one day.

jason1637 said:

1. My doubt is based on the fact that firearm suicides make up less than half of all suicides and that there are countries with strict gun laws that have high sucide rates. If someone wan'ts to off themselves they will find other methods.

Gun control isn't meant to stop all forms of suicides. - It is only meant to prevent suicide with guns.

Unless you are suggesting that unless we can stop all forms of violence that guns should be retained? Because that seems to be the argument you are clinging to.



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Pemalite said:
Dark_Lord_2008 said:

I have been educated by Fox News and Alex Jones on Info Wars that give us the real facts.

If what they say are real facts then we have 3 Mexicos.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Americans must re-elect Trump to protect Americans and Keep America Great Again!

Well, no, Americans don't have to do anything, they can use the power of democratic free speech to elect whoever furthers their interests.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Trump is Making America Great Again. He has reduced unemployment rates and businesses are booming in the US and the stock market is reaching new record heights. Mr Trump is man of Strong confidence and the American Economy is stronger than ever!

That was happening without trump anyway as the USA was exiting a recession.

And the economic sings are showing a weakening of the growth lately. It's quite possible that the trade wars are starting to take their toll on the economy.

@bolded: Well, they have to do one thing: Go Vote!



Gun control does not work. Gun parts can be imported. Criminals still get their guns and we have 3D printers that allow anyone to make guns that are untraceable. There are billions of guns in the USA and there is no way gun control laws work in a large country. Corrupt police officers and custom officers can get guns through because a good pile of cash to turn a blind eye is appealing. It is an Americans right to bear arms to defend his/her property. Guns do not kill people. People kill people. The NRA, Gun lobbyists, the Republicans and the majority of Americans oppose gun control laws. Good guys with guns will stop the bad guys with guns. More guns for good guys is needed to stop the bad guys with guns. Only Leftist/Socialist push gun control laws that can never be implemented in a  large country like USA, Russia or Germany, corrupt officials, public backlash and the growth of a black market of illegal arms dealers.



Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Gun control does not work. Gun parts can be imported. Criminals still get their guns and we have 3D printers that allow anyone to make guns that are untraceable. There are billions of guns in the USA and there is no way gun control laws work in a large country. Corrupt police officers and custom officers can get guns through because a good pile of cash to turn a blind eye is appealing. It is an Americans right to bear arms to defend his/her property. Guns do not kill people. People kill people. The NRA, Gun lobbyists, the Republicans and the majority of Americans oppose gun control laws. Good guys with guns will stop the bad guys with guns. More guns for good guys is needed to stop the bad guys with guns. Only Leftist/Socialist push gun control laws that can never be implemented in a  large country like USA, Russia or Germany, corrupt officials, public backlash and the growth of a black market of illegal arms dealers.

Yes criminals can always get weapons but those aren't the only ones that can use guns in a bad way,impulsive use when it is not needed is a huge risk and surely when people are not screened and without training on when to use and how to safely use it.

Bolded: ofcourse,and that is why not everyone and their dog should be able to have a gun.



Over the years America has had multiple mass shootings, gun violence, police shootings and gang shootings over narcotics and disputing territory are common in the US.
The gun lobby, NRA, Republicans oppose gun control laws regardless of what happens on the streets.

Small countries like Australia, New Zealand have implemented gun control laws that have been effective because the countries have small populations and manageable and there is no bill of rights that gives people the right to bear arms.

There were a number of factors that lead to the introduction of gun laws in Australia. Bikie gang shootings, serial killer Ivan Milat killing 7 victims and the tipping point was Martin Bryant's mass shooting of 35 victims in 1996, forced the Australian government to introduce gun control laws. An Australia born mass shooter in New Zealand, earlier this year has forced the NZ government to implement tight gun control laws.

It has been a God given right for Americans to own guns for 240 years and it is in the bill of rights of the American Constitution. Republicans, NRA, gun lobbyists are not going to allow any changes to the American Constitution.

There is not much Americans can do to change anything in the US because the Republicans, gun lobbyists, strong conservative media ensures that nothing changes. Americans have a great fear of Socialism/Communism and propaganda is spread to ensure that people vote for no changes and America stays the same. Only 50 to 60% of the American adults vote in Presidential elections ensures that nothing ever changes in America.



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Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Over the years America has had multiple mass shootings, gun violence, police shootings and gang shootings over narcotics and disputing territory are common in the US.
The gun lobby, NRA, Republicans oppose gun control laws regardless of what happens on the streets.

Small countries like Australia, New Zealand have implemented gun control laws that have been effective because the countries have small populations and manageable and there is no bill of rights that gives people the right to bear arms.

There were a number of factors that lead to the introduction of gun laws in Australia. Bikie gang shootings, serial killer Ivan Milat killing 7 victims and the tipping point was Martin Bryant's mass shooting of 35 victims in 1996, forced the Australian government to introduce gun control laws. An Australia born mass shooter in New Zealand, earlier this year has forced the NZ government to implement tight gun control laws.

It has been a God given right for Americans to own guns for 240 years and it is in the bill of rights of the American Constitution. Republicans, NRA, gun lobbyists are not going to allow any changes to the American Constitution.

There is not much Americans can do to change anything in the US because the Republicans, gun lobbyists, strong conservative media ensures that nothing changes. Americans have a great fear of Socialism/Communism and propaganda is spread to ensure that people vote for no changes and America stays the same. Only 50 to 60% of the American adults vote in Presidential elections ensures that nothing ever changes in America.

First bolded:But America has states that can behave as "small countries"

Second bolded:Alrighty, let me put my knights armor on and go on a crusade in the next village as it is my God given right as a european!



Immersiveunreality said:
Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Over the years America has had multiple mass shootings, gun violence, police shootings and gang shootings over narcotics and disputing territory are common in the US.
The gun lobby, NRA, Republicans oppose gun control laws regardless of what happens on the streets.

Small countries like Australia, New Zealand have implemented gun control laws that have been effective because the countries have small populations and manageable and there is no bill of rights that gives people the right to bear arms.

There were a number of factors that lead to the introduction of gun laws in Australia. Bikie gang shootings, serial killer Ivan Milat killing 7 victims and the tipping point was Martin Bryant's mass shooting of 35 victims in 1996, forced the Australian government to introduce gun control laws. An Australia born mass shooter in New Zealand, earlier this year has forced the NZ government to implement tight gun control laws.

It has been a God given right for Americans to own guns for 240 years and it is in the bill of rights of the American Constitution. Republicans, NRA, gun lobbyists are not going to allow any changes to the American Constitution.

There is not much Americans can do to change anything in the US because the Republicans, gun lobbyists, strong conservative media ensures that nothing changes. Americans have a great fear of Socialism/Communism and propaganda is spread to ensure that people vote for no changes and America stays the same. Only 50 to 60% of the American adults vote in Presidential elections ensures that nothing ever changes in America.

First bolded:But America has states that can behave as "small countries"

Second bolded:Alrighty, let me put my knights armor on and go on a crusade in the next village as it is my God given right as a european!

Send the Spanish inquisition against those Calvinist infidels! They'd never expect it!

Just to point out that the constitution says "weapon", not "gun". So in theory, nukes would be fair game, as would chemical weapons.



the-pi-guy said:

jason1637 said:

1. Guns are not the reason people want to commit sucide.

No one said that they were.  

jason1637 said:

1.If you take away the guns their emotions that make them want to end their lives are still there and since most suicides are not done with firearms these people would just find another way to commit suicides.

The two counterpoints:

-Guns are used so often because they are fast and reliable.  So people are more likely to use them.

-Guns are reliable.  Basically if people are more likely to use other methods, it is more likely they can be saved.  

jason1637 said:

If we take the UK for an example. In 1996/1997 they passed some gun control laws but sucide rate the following years had increased. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_Kingdom (you can see the chart when you click on the suicide rates thing under statistics). And Japan si another example of a country with strict gun laws and a high suicide rates. Guns are just one means people use to commit suicide. Take that away people will just find other ways.

One example doesn't make for a trend.  The number of suicides per year can fluctuate due to all kinds of reasons.  

Besides that, pointing to one example of gun control doesn't mean much, because not all gun controls laws are equal.  

jason1637 said:

2. You claimed that "Often it is because there either was a firearm present or they believed a firearm to be present." and I've never seen evidence of this that's why I asked for a source. The source you provided does not say anything about this.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2016/8/13/17938170/us-police-shootings-gun-violence-homicides

"One explanation for the disparity is that murder and gun violence are more common in the US, putting police in more situations in which the use of force is necessary"

"The research bears this out: More guns lead to more gun violence. And for police in particular, one study in the American Journal of Public Health found that every 10 percent increase in firearm ownership correlated with 10 additional officers killed at the state level over a 15-year period."

jason1637 said:

3. There will always be accidents for a lot of things. That's just people being careless. The primary focus of gun control laws are to prevent violent gun crimes so adding accidents to the equation isnt fair because they will still happen.

There is always a way to prevent carelessness.  

That could mean designing safer guns (that could be impossible for children to use), requiring higher standards for guns being locked up (that could mean requiring police to check houses to see how guns are stored), requiring some kind of training.  

jason1637 said:

4. The guy wanted to show that the issue of gun control is not as big as the media and some politicians make it to be. Yeah some of his evidence was a bit misleading because he said himself that he was not able to find full info and had to use info form past years. But even with more accurate stats you provided earlier the gun problem is not as big as the media makes it out to be,

How big does an issue need to be, to be worth the attention?  

1. The point I was making was that since Guns don't make people want to comitt sucide taking them alway does not solve that issue. Yeah guns are reliable but there are other reliable ways people can commit suicide. I used the example of the UK gun control to show that gun control does not necessarily lead to lower sucide rates.

2. That's an interesting correlation. But still does not prove that those killed were doing anything wrong. If a police officer shot someone who had a gun but the person shot wasnt doing anything criminal then the issue is that the officers lack training not that the victim had a gun.

3. Lock up laws are in some parts of the country but I agree that they should be nationwide. But letting cops search peoples homes would be a nightmare.

4.I'm not saying that it isn't worth attention just that the amount of attention it gets by the media should eb given to bigger issues that affect more people.



jason1637 said:

1. The point I was making was that since Guns don't make people want to comitt sucide taking them alway does not solve that issue. Yeah guns are reliable but there are other reliable ways people can commit suicide. I used the example of the UK gun control to show that gun control does not necessarily lead to lower sucide rates.

You are making several assumptions here that cannot be assumed with the given information. You assume that all individuals who attempt suicide with a firearm would attempt suicide without the firearm around and you assume that all individuals who do attempt suicide would use a method which is equally reliable.

Yes, there are methods that are equally reliable, however with these other methods you also have to ask how physically available and how psychologically available they are. Jumping out of a plane may be fairly reliable, but it tends to be physically unavailable. On the other hand, something like slitting your wrists would be something that would be considered highly psychologically unavailable because of the pain and emotional difficultly involved.

While an individual could likely find a way to commit suicide, it is unreasonable to assume that those who commit suicide with guns would still attempt suicide at a 100% rate, and that those who still attempt suicide would use a manner with as high of a success rate at a 100% rate.

To illustrate this point, the Washington Post did some math which applied typical methods to suicide attempts to the United States to determine how suicide rates would change if fewer attempts were performed with firearms. This math does not account for a possible decrease in attempts.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/wonkblog/suicide-rates/

Overall, by changing how individuals attempt suicide, the overall suicide rate could decline 20-38%. That is a very substantial figure (and again, it doesn't account for a likely decrease in attempts).

A similar correlative effect is seen when comparing states by household firearm ownership:

https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(18)32383-3/fulltext

Overall, with a 10% increase in household firearm ownership, youth suicide increases by about 26%.

This same trend has been reproduced in multiple studies. The following study examined the relation between firearm ownership and suicides at a city level instead of a state level:

https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/21/e1/e116.short

Again, the same trend was observed, with higher rates of firearm ownership being strongly associated with higher suicide rates.

Further studies introduced questions about firearm storage and strictness of gun control regulations into the above picture and again, found similar trends:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/sltb.12243

Availability of guns and gun readiness were associated with increases in suicide rates, while stricter gun regulations decreased suicide rates.

And here is an article which looks specifically at Handgun Purchase Delay regulations and again finds that it has an effect on suicide rates:

https://academic.oup.com/ej/article-abstract/128/616/3117/5251684

Overall, purchase delay laws alone were found to reduce firearm suicide rates by 2-5% with no associated increase in non-firearm suicides. Obviously, there are numerous things that can be done beyond this which would stack to further reduce suicide rates, but this is just one example.



Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Gun control does not work. Gun parts can be imported. Criminals still get their guns and we have 3D printers that allow anyone to make guns that are untraceable.

Gun control does work... Australia has proven it, the evidence is overwhelming, it shouldn't even be up for debate anymore.

The fact that guns can still be smuggled in, printed and abused by those in positions of power doesn't discredit the effectiveness gun control has had on Australia or other nations that have implemented Gun Control.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:

There are billions of guns in the USA and there is no way gun control laws work in a large country.

Sure there are, it will just be a larger logistical effort than other nations.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Corrupt police officers and custom officers can get guns through because a good pile of cash to turn a blind eye is appealing.

Then they need better and stricter border policies, that's not the fault of Gun Control.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:

It is an Americans right to bear arms to defend his/her property.

Sure. But what you forget is that Gun Control doesn't actually remove your right to bear arms anyway, making this argument extremely redundant.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Guns do not kill people. People kill people.

Guns allow for the death of people far quicker, easier and conveniently than other methods which tend to be more confrontational.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:

The NRA, Gun lobbyists, the Republicans and the majority of Americans oppose gun control laws.

And? Who cares? Plenty of people are supportive of gun control laws.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Good guys with guns will stop the bad guys with guns. More guns for good guys is needed to stop the bad guys with guns.

Not always. Sometimes the good guys get killed first.
Sometimes the good guys fuck up and kill other good guys.
Sometimes the good guys fuck up and leave their weapon of choice unsecured which can sometimes result in the death of a curious child, or stolen by someone with malicious intent.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Only Leftist/Socialist push gun control laws that can never be implemented in a  large country like USA, Russia or Germany, corrupt officials, public backlash and the growth of a black market of illegal arms dealers.

Fake news. Gun control was implemented by a right-wing government in Australia and has generally had bipartisan support ever since, it's only from the far-far-right or left political parties/loonies that oppose it.

Gun Control isn't leftist/socialist.

I find it hilarious when someone states that a nation that can land a man on the moon cannot implement Gun control, do you have any idea how silly your claim is?

Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Small countries like Australia, New Zealand have implemented gun control laws that have been effective because the countries have small populations and manageable and there is no bill of rights that gives people the right to bear arms.

The size of a country has nothing to do with it.
The bill of rights has nothing to do with it.

The right to bear arms isn't being destroyed, it's a false fear-campaign from the uneducated about gun control, you do NOT loose access to guns, you can still own guns in Australia and New Zealand and other nations.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:


It has been a God given right for Americans to own guns for 240 years and it is in the bill of rights of the American Constitution. Republicans, NRA, gun lobbyists are not going to allow any changes to the American Constitution.

No changes needed to the American Constitution.

Dark_Lord_2008 said:
There is not much Americans can do to change anything in the US because the Republicans, gun lobbyists, strong conservative media ensures that nothing changes. Americans have a great fear of Socialism/Communism and propaganda is spread to ensure that people vote for no changes and America stays the same. Only 50 to 60% of the American adults vote in Presidential elections ensures that nothing ever changes in America.

Maybe Americans might just stop supporting politicians who are getting paid off by lobbyists/lobby groups?



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