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Slimebeast said:

Please don't put words in my mouth when we're discussing a sensitive topic. I never said I don't want people in my country purely based on race. Race in itself is not important, it's the factors that are tied to race. White people in the US as well as in Sweden have cultural elements and motivations and interestes in life that may or may not differ from foreigners and/or minorities. The factual reality of immigration means that white people are becoming a minority.

Racist is not the same as being race aware. And America is very aware of race right now.

About white people to Asia, no, I wouldn't want Japanese or any other Asian people to become a minority in its own country, if for some reason there was a huge migrant pressure by whites wanting to go to Asia. Why is this racism according to you?

The most important political topics for voters are measured and ranked regularily by pollsters in Sweden. In recent years, immigration and crime has both been in the top three most imprtant subjects most of the time. Sometimes health care is in the very top but when it comes to media coverage and public discourse, clearly crime and immigration or more covered than healthcare (until the covid crisis). 

"I'm not racist! Please don't put those racist words in my mouth!"

*Proceeds to spout every racist's talking point in quick succession as things to consider*



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Hiku said:

I'm a Swede, and I don't know how you quantify those two subjects as the top political topics?
I know you're a fan of the party that was founded by white supremacists, Sverige Democraterna, so of course your news feed is going to be filled with those two topics.

Keep
Sweden
Swedish

They claimed to have 'severed ties' with their white supremacist past, but that's obviously BS to get votes from normal people.

That picture is from the 80's or early 90's. The Sweden Democrats have changed quite a bit since then.

But even if that was a message for today, I don't understand how it's automatically wrong to want to keep Sweden Swedish? "Swedish" doesn't automatically refer to race and whiteness. It also covers culture and customs and everything that makes a particular country unique.

I absolutely want to keep Sweden Swedish. I don't want Sweden to become un-Swedish. Why on earth would I want that? Could you explain that, and also explain why your position is better or more justified than mine?



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Runa216 said:
Slimebeast said:

Please don't put words in my mouth when we're discussing a sensitive topic. I never said I don't want people in my country purely based on race. Race in itself is not important, it's the factors that are tied to race. White people in the US as well as in Sweden have cultural elements and motivations and interestes in life that may or may not differ from foreigners and/or minorities. The factual reality of immigration means that white people are becoming a minority.

Racist is not the same as being race aware. And America is very aware of race right now.

About white people to Asia, no, I wouldn't want Japanese or any other Asian people to become a minority in its own country, if for some reason there was a huge migrant pressure by whites wanting to go to Asia. Why is this racism according to you?

The most important political topics for voters are measured and ranked regularily by pollsters in Sweden. In recent years, immigration and crime has both been in the top three most imprtant subjects most of the time. Sometimes health care is in the very top but when it comes to media coverage and public discourse, clearly crime and immigration or more covered than healthcare (until the covid crisis). 

"I'm not racist! Please don't put those racist words in my mouth!"

*Proceeds to spout every racist's talking point in quick succession as things to consider*

Do you have an actual argument? Can you point to anything specific I said that is racist? It's not a rhetorical question, I would like an explanation.

What definition of racism are you using btw?



Slimebeast said:
Hiku said:

I'm a Swede, and I don't know how you quantify those two subjects as the top political topics?
I know you're a fan of the party that was founded by white supremacists, Sverige Democraterna, so of course your news feed is going to be filled with those two topics.

Keep
Sweden
Swedish

They claimed to have 'severed ties' with their white supremacist past, but that's obviously BS to get votes from normal people.

That picture is from the 80's or early 90's. The Sweden Democrats have changed quite a bit since then.

But even if that was a message for today, I don't understand how it's automatically wrong to want to keep Sweden Swedish? "Swedish" doesn't automatically refer to race and whiteness. It also covers culture and customs and everything that makes a particular country unique.

I absolutely want to keep Sweden Swedish. I don't want Sweden to become un-Swedish. Why on earth would I want that? Could you explain that, and also explain why your position is better or more justified than mine?

People tend to speak about culture like it has never changed before and it has always been a static thing for their country but immigration has been a thing for a long time and that aint the root of the problem.

Culture now was different 20 years ago ,40 years ago,60 years ago but will also be different 20 years from now. The Sweden of now is not the Sweden of yesterday OR tomorrow.



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Slimebeast said:
Hiku said:

I'm a Swede, and I don't know how you quantify those two subjects as the top political topics?
I know you're a fan of the party that was founded by white supremacists, Sverige Democraterna, so of course your news feed is going to be filled with those two topics.

Keep
Sweden
Swedish

They claimed to have 'severed ties' with their white supremacist past, but that's obviously BS to get votes from normal people.

That picture is from the 80's or early 90's. The Sweden Democrats have changed quite a bit since then.

But even if that was a message for today, I don't understand how it's automatically wrong to want to keep Sweden Swedish? "Swedish" doesn't automatically refer to race and whiteness. It also covers culture and customs and everything that makes a particular country unique.

I absolutely want to keep Sweden Swedish. I don't want Sweden to become un-Swedish. Why on earth would I want that? Could you explain that, and also explain why your position is better or more justified than mine?

Sweden isnt the same Sweden from 200 years ago or 500 years ago, like all of human history cultures evolve and change, hanging onto the past is not possible or sustainable in the long run  



Immersiveunreality said:
Slimebeast said:

That picture is from the 80's or early 90's. The Sweden Democrats have changed quite a bit since then.

But even if that was a message for today, I don't understand how it's automatically wrong to want to keep Sweden Swedish? "Swedish" doesn't automatically refer to race and whiteness. It also covers culture and customs and everything that makes a particular country unique.

I absolutely want to keep Sweden Swedish. I don't want Sweden to become un-Swedish. Why on earth would I want that? Could you explain that, and also explain why your position is better or more justified than mine?

People tend to speak about culture like it has never changed before and it has always been a static thing for their country but immigration has been a thing for a long time and that aint the root of the problem.

Culture now was different 20 years ago ,40 years ago,60 years ago but will also be different 20 years from now. The Sweden of now is not the Sweden of yesterday OR tomorrow.

That's a pretty standard response. That cultures change and immigration is natural and nothing to worry about.

Of course cultures change, they constantly change. Nobody is denying that. But I believe in preserving culture. To some extent. It's a philosophical question how much a person values conservation versus change. And it obviously depends on if the culture is good or bad. There's no denying that immigration can change cultures.



Rab said:
Slimebeast said:

That picture is from the 80's or early 90's. The Sweden Democrats have changed quite a bit since then.

But even if that was a message for today, I don't understand how it's automatically wrong to want to keep Sweden Swedish? "Swedish" doesn't automatically refer to race and whiteness. It also covers culture and customs and everything that makes a particular country unique.

I absolutely want to keep Sweden Swedish. I don't want Sweden to become un-Swedish. Why on earth would I want that? Could you explain that, and also explain why your position is better or more justified than mine?

Sweden isnt the same Sweden from 200 years ago or 500 years ago, like all of human history cultures evolve and change, hanging onto the past is not possible or sustainable in the long run  

Have you heard about conservatism? It's a political philosophy that strives for and values slow and stable change in a society and culture. It values traditions, customs and history, among other things.

There's no external, natural law that determines the rate of change of a culture. I believe the destiny of a nation lies in the hands of the people. And I actively promote a conservatve attitude to societal change and I can also point to specific nations around the world to use as role models for my own country to follow.



Fear mongering about white people becoming a minority is racist. Full stop.

Arguing that it isn't about race, but instead about culture does little to dig yourself out of that hole, when it is also racist. American culture is not inherently white. People of all races contribute to American culture. The contributions to America and American culture of citizens and immigrants alike are valuable. White people becoming a minority does not indicate our doom or the decline of our culture and civilization. It is not emblematic of a slow suicide, nor is it emblematic of a decline in the American-ness of America.



Slimebeast said:
vivster said:
Those political debates are just as stupid as "debates" of pundits on Fox News. It's all false equivalency. As if if one party is exactly as valid as the other and trying to debate from the same standpoint, which couldn't be further from the truth. All this does is give legitimacy to bottom feeders and loud minorities. As if being a racist is just as bad as being old. As if giving money to corporations is just as valid as giving money to the homeless.

The US is being ruled by a minority doing everything in their power to seem like a majority.

No, it's not false equivalency. It's called democracy.

You're not just questioning the legitimacy of right wing policies, you are implying that matching the two sides in a debate against each other and allow them to compete on an equal footing is unfair. You're implying that it somehow should be moderated from the top and that Trump should be shamed from the very start.

And you're not the only one. This is the problem of many in the radical left, how they believe they have the universal truth. To question the legitimacy of the mere existence of the other side. You can always oppress and accuse the opposition in the name of the greater good. The arc of history bends towards justice, and whoever opposes that is a racist, sexist or homophobe. If they could, they would even stop us from openly debating many topics.

The left, or at least the extreme left, regards immigration as a human right. It's a human right for anybody to move into the US and other Western nations. 

We give and give and give but all the other side does is demand even more. It never ends. White Americans are already a minority in the biggest states of the US, but it still wasn't enough for the left. We're now on path for white people to make up less than half the population in a generation or so, but conservatives are still being accused of being racist. 22% of public school students today in California are non-hispanic whites. This happened in only two generations. And yet the extreme left demands more. And the pressure is stronger and crazier than ever, with demands for racial justice, demands for equity, accusations of the US being systemically racist and white supremacist, obligatory racial sensitivity training being imposed in schools and public institutions.

I think it's totally surreal.

What's in it for us? Nothing. We are committing a slow suicide. This is why the right needs to wake up and realize that we can't give in to unreasonable demands all the time.

In what way is Trump racist? It's a ridiculous accusation. He is actually too soft like most of the Republican party. Future generations will ask, how on earth could our forebears allow us to become this tiny minority? For what? Nobody even thanked us. The only thing we heard was endless accusations of being racist. At least Trump acknowledges there is a problem. Appeasement doesn't work. You cannot give an inch without offering a fight, in every area. This will be one of Trump's biggest legacy, and he will show the way for future conservative leaders.

You come from Germany, Vivster. And Germany is in a similar situation as Sweden. Swedes are one of the most tolerant people on earth but our number one political topic nowadays is immigration and crime. The number one is crime, the number two is about cutting immigration. Even naive Swedes are starting to realize how we are losing our nation in front of our own eyes, how we are going from a once homogenous and peaceful nation and becoming a multicultural and divided nation like the US.

Democracy is not giving anti-democratic people the same power as democratic people. One core value of democracy is to stamp out anti-democrats. I am from Germany and when we detect anti-democratic people we jail them. To preserve democracy. Turns out being anti-democratic in a democracy is a one of the highest crimes.

Of course that won't work in the US because the US is not a democracy.

In the US you elect people by a minority.

In the US you give states with less population more voting power than others.

In the US you give some states no voting power at all. (taxation without representation anyone?)

In the US you prevent eligible people from voting.

In the US you give people with more money more voting power by making it legal to buy politicians.

In the US a politician can be openly corrupt without any repercussions.

In the US a president can break the constitution without any repercussions.

Don't you ever have the audacity to talk about democracy when you talk about the US. A country run by anti-democrats cannot be a democracy by definition.

Trump is an anti democrat. He doesn't belong on a podium in a democratic debate. He belongs in jail. And he would be if he lived in a democracy.

Last edited by vivster - on 01 October 2020

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