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Came across a great analogy for the racial wealth gap today, particularly relevant to a gaming forum, lol:

The vid it came from is also a great breakdown of systemic racism in the country.



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coolbeans said:

What are you talking about? The status of each party 'in the moment' is fundamentally crucial in determining fault.  You don't just get to arbitrarily determine intent when video evidence contradicts your preconceived notions.  He was literally running TOWARDS authorities and away from those who were physically and/or verbally threatening his well-being & life.  I have yet to see any video evidence that supports this half-effort narrative of him like you're painting, unless your perspective of open-carry is terribly skewed.  Your confidence in that final sentence is only going to sting more when several of these charges are dropped (EDIT: or found not guilty if pros. locks these in all the way to court).

This is so monumentally skewed I'm genuinely unsure you've done anything but watch whatever John Oliver vid has covered this.  For someone who's done the smarmy "do u know law?" comment, I'm genuinely curious what you know about open-carry in WI.  Because unless you have video evidence of him actually waving it like some kind of loon before being chased by Rosenbaum, using that kind of language for someone who open-carried & held it like you normally do is just sperging out over the sight of a big gun.  Even if you stick him with breaking various laws beforehand Rittenhouse does not forfeit his right to self-defense, especially since he committed to de-escalating this situation both times.  So, you can't even wax poetic about how Stand Your Ground laws have poisoned our thinking and yada yada.  

I'll break it down for you as to why: the unedited footage was thrust on me and I pursued that versus relying on third-party filters with pre-fabricated responses.  Try it.

Let me pose you this hypothetical:

You are in a public space. You hear a gunshot and see someone with a gun running away from someone who had just been shot in the head. You think that this is an active shooting scenario, and the context clues lead you to assume that their is reasonable danger to yourself and others in the vicinity. As such, you attempt to neutralize the threat of this individual.

Do they then have the right to murder you?

If so, I believe that the self-defense laws are fundamentally broken. A key to self-defense law is not only that you must reasonably believe that an individual will do you harm, but that this harm is "unlawful". This is why provocation clauses exist. In circumstances like this, it is logical to assume that the harm that is being done to a shooter fleeing the scene of a crime through a crowd is in itself an act of self-defense. I saw nothing in the video after that initial shooting which leads me to believe that any of the victims did anything that fell outside of the bounds of self-defense. Similarly, I believe that a reasonable individual would see fleeing from the scene of a shooting with a gun as being a situation in which individuals would feel the need to lawfully intervene. As such, I do not consider it reasonable to murder someone who was reasonably acting out their legal right to self-defense. 

That is also ignoring the fact that an individual may only use lethal force in situations where there is a reasonably belief of again, not simply harm, but death or great bodily harm. I do not believe that this belief is reasonable in this situation. It is simply not a reasonable belief that someone running at, or attempting to disarm a shooter will kill you or do great bodily harm without additional input which then grants them the legal right to utilize a higher level of force in self-defense.

I believed that the extent of Rittenhouse's stupidity was so great that while he may have been acting out of the fear he sincerely held, he was not acting as a reasonable individual in this instance and as such, he loses his right to self-defense in all shootings following the initial shooting. 

Last edited by sundin13 - on 03 September 2020

Runa216 said:
Some of y'all need to watch John Oliver. Apparently, according to I think politifact or something (I need to find my source), those who watch John Oliver's show are the best educated on modern matters. Yeah, he's a comedian, but so was John Stewart and his show got equal praise.

Seriously, check out his youtube, it'll give a pretty thorough explanation of what's going on. Yes it's a liberal show, but it is very good about showing the facts and focusing on that.

Just watched a portion (7:06 to 13:30). I'm not terribly impressed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBu0BRTx2x8

Cherry-picking are words that come to mind...

I think I'd rather watch lawyers actually go through footage and the like when evaluating these things, not comedians.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ6b-7_9K4w

Last edited by KLAMarine - on 04 September 2020

the-pi-guy said:

coolbeans said:

What are you talking about? The status of each party 'in the moment' is fundamentally crucial in determining fault.  You don't just get to arbitrarily determine intent when video evidence contradicts your preconceived notions.  He was literally running TOWARDS authorities and away from those who were physically and/or verbally threatening his well-being & life.  I have yet to see any video evidence that supports this half-effort narrative of him like you're painting, unless your perspective of open-carry is terribly skewed.  Your confidence in that final sentence is only going to sting more when several of these charges are dropped (EDIT: or found not guilty if pros. locks these in all the way to court).

1.) He wasn't legally allowed to be open carrying in the first place.  And he was open carrying before the shootings.

2.) Premeditation still matters.  If you go into a situation with the intent to kill someone, you don't get a free pass if that person decides to defend themselves  

3.)  Even with self defense on the table, he was still trying to be an underaged vigilante with an illegal gun, trying to be the hero.  Which isn't legal.  Which you seemingly admit here:

coolbeans said:

This is so monumentally skewed I'm genuinely unsure you've done anything but watch whatever John Oliver vid has covered this.  For someone who's done the smarmy "do u know law?" comment, I'm genuinely curious what you know about open-carry in WI.  Because unless you have video evidence of him actually waving it like some kind of loon before being chased by Rosenbaum, using that kind of language for someone who open-carried & held it like you normally do is just sperging out over the sight of a big gun.  Even if you stick him with breaking various laws beforehand Rittenhouse does not forfeit his right to self-defense, especially since he committed to de-escalating this situation both times.  So, you can't even wax poetic about how Stand Your Ground laws have poisoned our thinking and yada yada.  

> de-escalating this situation both times

Frankly I haven't seen any de-escalation.  We're talking about 3 seconds between when he shot #2 and #3.  During those few seconds, most of that he's pointing at #3.  For the moments that he seemingly lowered his weapon, he was for some reason focused on his gun.  #3 clearly didn't pull a fake out.  He backed off for a second following the first gun shot.  

Additionally take your self defense link:

>The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.

So unless he reasonably believed that he was going to die or greatly injured, which feels like a stretch considering the two people he killed only had a skateboard and a plastic bag as a weapon, he can't use self defense for the two people he killed.  

So here:

coolbeans said:

Whatever should be considered that lead up to Rosenbaum chasing a minor like that is just conjecture until I see video evidence that really changes the narrative.  Until then, Rosenbaum's inciting incident just looks like a Darwin Award clip; though I'm open the evidence.  For the 2nd & 3rd "victims"?  Sk8tr boi and biceps got what was coming to them.  No question.

You can't kill someone because they hit you with a skateboard.  

Additionally, with this kind of defense, you run into the issue that mass shooters could kill someone, and then they could legally kill anyone that tried taking their gun away from them.  Because it's self defense.  

coolbeans said:

[Another Edit: And as far as this meme-logic by him 'traveling' to Kenosha with a gun therefore you're always at fault?  The story seems pretty clear-cut: since he works there or near there, he accepted a local's request to help ensure a certain business wouldn't be looted, got a rifle (I think his friend's), and...yeah.  Like, I'm genuinely curious how many of you even know the background as to how he wound up there, so I think you need to catch up.

It's not meme logic.  It suggest pre-meditation.  

Secondly, some of us disagree with the idea that protecting private property means you can take away someone else's life.  

"If you go into a situation with the intent to kill someone"

>How are we establishing intent here?



sundin13 said:

Let me pose you this hypothetical:

You are in a public space. You hear a gunshot and see someone with a gun running away from someone who had just been shot in the head. You think that this is an active shooting scenario, and the context clues lead you to assume that their is reasonable danger to yourself and others in the vicinity. As such, you attempt to neutralize the threat of this individual.

Do they then have the right to murder you?

But it's a bit problematic to judge Rittenhouse's actions based on how this other guy may have seen the situation. Had this other guy injured or killed Rittenhouse because he thought he's protecting himself and others, then this would be something to consider. Rittenhouse's right to use deadly force to protect himself comes from his perception of the situation.

the-pi-guy said:

You can't kill someone because they hit you with a skateboard.  

Additionally, with this kind of defense, you run into the issue that mass shooters could kill someone, and then they could legally kill anyone that tried taking their gun away from them.  Because it's self defense.  

There's more to the circumstances here than just a hit with a skateboard. 

And you don't really run into such issue. Active mass murdered is the aggressor and committing a felony, so he/she can't claim self-defence, obviously. Let me ask you this, if Rittenhouse illegally carrying a gun means he can't use it to defend himself, does that mean that someone without a licence to carry should go to jail if he finds a weapon on the scene and shoots an active mass murderer?

Also I've seen you and others claim Rittenhouse was there with intent to kill. Can you actually back this up with something, because the prosecutor certainly needs to. If he indeed had that intent, then I see him going to jail for life.



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JWeinCom said:
vivster said:

Then that law needs to be abolished unless they have a guarantee that your mail ballot counts.

Not really.

To my knowledge there is no convincing evidence that votes won't be counted. Not sure how they would prove that they are not.

But, if you are not convinced that mail in voting will be counted, then there is already a solution to that problem. In person voting. Doing both is an attempt at fraud that makes for longer waits and higher costs for everyone.

To expand upon this, according to the attorney general, North Carolina actually has an app to track your ballot once it is submitted. Which seems about as good of a method as we can get for ensuring your vote is counted I think. If anyone else doesn't think that's good enough, then their solution is to not vote by mail.



Someone share this with protesters



Two Blue Lives Matter supporters traveling from Missouri to Kenosha, Wisconsin were arrested with an arsenal of weapons including an AR-15, a shotgun, two handguns and more under suspicion that they planned to use them on protestors. The two men had prior convictions that prevented them from possessing such weapons. The FBI made the arrest after receiving a tip about the men and their intentions.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/blue-lives-matter-supporters-arrested-031650651.html

To me this is similar to the Rittenhouse case. Out of state agitators bringing their guns to enforce vigilante justice. I wonder if they would claim self defense as well if they discharged their weapons in front of angry protestors. Thankfully this was thwarted before anyone got seriously hurt.

This is a sad time for US. So much polarization and hostility, add the wide availability of guns and this is a recipe for disaster.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1gWECYYOSo

Please Watch/Share this video so it gets shown in Hollywood.

KiigelHeart said:

sundin13 said:

Let me pose you this hypothetical:

You are in a public space. You hear a gunshot and see someone with a gun running away from someone who had just been shot in the head. You think that this is an active shooting scenario, and the context clues lead you to assume that their is reasonable danger to yourself and others in the vicinity. As such, you attempt to neutralize the threat of this individual.

Do they then have the right to murder you?

But it's a bit problematic to judge Rittenhouse's actions based on how this other guy may have seen the situation. Had this other guy injured or killed Rittenhouse because he thought he's protecting himself and others, then this would be something to consider. Rittenhouse's right to use deadly force to protect himself comes from his perception of the situation.

To clarify, Rittenhouse's right to use deadly force to protect himself comes from a reasonable person's perception of the situation.

No matter how sincerely Rittenhouse believed that he was in danger, it doesn't really matter. The question is "would a reasonable person see it that way". As previously stated, I believe that a reasonable person would see an individual fleeing from shooting someone in the head would be considered a risk and disarming that individual would not be considered unlawful. As such, Rittenhouse would not have the legal right to use self-defense in that situation (unless the situation took a turn which it did not take).

I believe it is incredibly important to protect the right of people to act in self-defense and in defense of others, so we cannot allow individuals to infringe on that right such as Rittenhouse, who assaulted and killed people who were reasonably exercising that right. He should have understood that fleeing the scene of a homicide through a crowd with a gun was in and of itself an act of provocation and by failing to understand that, he put himself and everybody around him in danger. As previously stated, the extent of his stupidity was so great that he surrendered his right to self-defense. 



KLAMarine said:

Someone share this with protesters

While they're at it, compare Covid to killings by protesters, considering how much of a bigger deal is being made about destroyed property than hundreds of thousands of deaths.