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Ka-pi96 said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

I had that argument with a German teacher. She argued that the compulsory military service was the pinnacle of democracy, I said that compulsory voting would be it since voting is your highest right and might in a democracy. She didn't agree and went on why she thought the military service was more democratic.

I broke her bubble by pointing out that with compulsory voting, Hitler would have had zero chances of getting elected, while with the reintroduction of the military service, he was able to start both a world war and a genocide.

She was unable to answer anything after that for about 10 minutes...

I'd argue that both are the antithesis of democracy.

The freedom not to vote should be just as much a part of democracy as the freedom to vote. And the freedom not to be forced into murder/death is just common sense.

Personally, if anybody is trying to force that kind of shit on me I'd consider them an enemy unequivocally. ie. I'd rather become a "terrorist" than accept it.

Do you feel the same way about other laws?



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I guess this is relevant.

EXCLUSIVE: Police bodycam footage shows moment-by-moment arrest of George Floyd for the first time



Hunting Season is done...

Policemen being so insecure that they have to use excessive force against unarmed people sure are sad. I hope they slip on a banana peel.

Just to note police brutality is yet another non political issue. It's a civil an human rights issue. The only way it could be political is if there are politicians against those rights.

Last edited by vivster - on 04 August 2020

If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Ka-pi96 said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

I had that argument with a German teacher. She argued that the compulsory military service was the pinnacle of democracy, I said that compulsory voting would be it since voting is your highest right and might in a democracy. She didn't agree and went on why she thought the military service was more democratic.

I broke her bubble by pointing out that with compulsory voting, Hitler would have had zero chances of getting elected, while with the reintroduction of the military service, he was able to start both a world war and a genocide.

She was unable to answer anything after that for about 10 minutes...

I'd argue that both are the antithesis of democracy.

The freedom not to vote should be just as much a part of democracy as the freedom to vote. And the freedom not to be forced into murder/death is just common sense.

Personally, if anybody is trying to force that kind of shit on me I'd consider them an enemy unequivocally. ie. I'd rather become a "terrorist" than accept it.

You can perfectly well give them an empty sheet, you just need to go there, nothing more.



Ka-pi96 said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

You can perfectly well give them an empty sheet, you just need to go there, nothing more.

I'd rather they come to my place. They should know that I wouldn't go down without a fight though...

Although to be perfectly honest if they did try and force that shit I'd probably just vote for the worst party there is. Like, literally the worst. Rather than exercise my right to self-defence against their violent goons.

Something that might give you some relief: Nobody got fined in ages for not turning up to vote.

Also, it's only for people with the Luxembourgish nationality aged 18-65. Considering that we only account for about half the population in the country (and even less if we wouldn't count naturalized people), that leaves out a big chunk of the population either way.



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Ka-pi96 said:
sundin13 said:

Do you feel the same way about other laws?

What other laws force people to do things? None. Let alone laws that force people to murder.

Not even tax is technically compulsory since it's possible to avoid doing anything that would be taxed. It would be a sucky life, but it's a possible one. Although taxes aren't even bad when they're used for good things.

I'm also against laws that force people not to do things (that don't even harm anybody else), eg. anti-drug laws. But I don't personally use any drugs other than alcohol so no government has yet sent their goons after me for that.

It is functionally impossible to live a life where your actions are not in some part dictated by the law.

If you wish to drive a car, you have to wear your seatbelt, have your car inspected, follow the speed limit and follow traffic signs. Alternately, you could walk, but there are laws which dictate where you can walk and when you cross the street, and laws which dictate how you have to be dressed and which restrict you from doing multiple things from drinking alcohol and carrying firearms to playing music too loudly and spitting on the sidewalk. Now lets say you are walking and an officer comes up to you. There are laws which force you to comply with their lawful orders. Then you go into a store to buy some food and you are assaulted by dozens of laws about how you must conduct yourself...



Ka-pi96 said:
sundin13 said:

It is functionally impossible to live a life where your actions are not in some part dictated by the law.

If you wish to drive a car, you have to wear your seatbelt, have your car inspected, follow the speed limit and follow traffic signs. Alternately, you could walk, but there are laws which dictate where you can walk and when you cross the street, and laws which dictate how you have to be dressed and which restrict you from doing multiple things from drinking alcohol and carrying firearms to playing music too loudly and spitting on the sidewalk. Now lets say you are walking and an officer comes up to you. There are laws which force you to comply with their lawful orders. Then you go into a store to buy some food and you are assaulted by dozens of laws about how you must conduct yourself...

How many of those things are they going to put a gun to your head and force you to do?

They're not gonna send their goon squad to break into your house, bundle you into a car and throw you into jail, or even kill you, because you didn't wear a seatbelt. They will if you refuse to join their "army" though.

If you are breaking the law in public, consequences aren't unlikely and these consequences aren't tremendously distinct from consequences for failing to vote, for example. The penalty for spitting on the sidewalk in Massachusetts is $20. The penalty for failing to vote in Australia is $20.

No one is going to be shot over not voting.

As for compulsory military service, I do not agree with it, however your objections are both ridiculous and hyperbolic. In many countries with compulsory military service, there are ways to opt out based on religion, or you can choose to instead do civil service or serve in a unarmed role. The penalty for failure to do any of these options is one year in prison in Finland, however, their police force tends to kill one or fewer people per year so worrying about roving assassination squads is fairly hilarious, especially when you consider that Americans are killed at about 40times that rate (by population).

Actually, one other example of the law forcing you to do something, is our education system in the US. Truancy is illegal in most states and often come with fines, which, if left unpaid, will result in jail time for the parents. The child can also be sentenced to house arrest, compulsory community service, or a revoked driver's license.



Have you seen the AXIOS interview with Donald Trump? Really a sight to be believed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaaTZkqsaxY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywa1fqPVp9o

Trump really showed his complete ineptitude to everybody here.



coolbeans said:
Ka-pi96 said:

A "choice" between being forced into the murder squad or slave labour isn't really a choice.

Guess I can add Finland onto my list of countries never to live in alongside Korea.

Speaking as someone who's just "passing through" this argument, I think you're taking the most hyperbolic route for an otherwise understandable sentiment.  There's an interesting thought exercise here: regardless of whether it's $1 or $1000, why does a legislative body get to punish you for an action you personally decided to exercise of your own free will?  And what other contexts could this apply?  But it's not really productive to ramp up the parallels between some arguably unjust laws in Finland to a totalitarian regime like North Korea.

My thoughts exactly. I agree that compulsory military service should not be a thing, while compulsory voting I am fairly neutral towards (I am against it in theory, but in practice it would protect against efforts to disenfranchise voters which I'd say is a bigger problem), but this dude's arguments are ridiculous haha



Bofferbrauer2 said:

Have you seen the AXIOS interview with Donald Trump? Really a sight to be believed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaaTZkqsaxY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywa1fqPVp9o

Trump really showed his complete ineptitude to everybody here.

Damn, and I thought the Chris Wallace interview was bad.