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Not sure what is worse, the U.S. abandoning the Kurds, or countries worldwide and their people who think the Kurds deserve protection regardless, yet won't put their money/military where their mouth is.

What is more valuable, your own soldiers health/life, another soldiers health/life, money, or maybe public/worldwide relations?



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So what other allies should also be helping out with this Kurd ordeal? I get the issue of us backing out after we were already there, but surely the US isn't the only Ally of the Kurds.

Are these other nations providing soldiers as well? Or are they just complaining that we are no longer providing our soldiers but providing none of their own?



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Baalzamon said:
So what other allies should also be helping out with this Kurd ordeal? I get the issue of us backing out after we were already there, but surely the US isn't the only Ally of the Kurds.

Are these other nations providing soldiers as well? Or are they just complaining that we are no longer providing our soldiers but providing none of their own?

Plenty of other allies from the international coalition helped but in the end a small symbolic force stayed. 

The issue is not the backing out but how Trump did it. Would it have been hard to discuss this with other countries like three months ago and find a solution together?  Small symbolic forces from Usa/France/Uk/Germany/Nertherlands/Belgium/Italy/Sweden etc, that could switch around.

The number of refugees has surpassed 275k in less than a week.






We're now a week into the Turkish invasion of SDF territory. The United Nations estimates that more than 160,000 (including some 70,000 children) have now been displaced. Over the weekend, the Trump Administration ordered the withdrawal of remaining U.S. troops from Northern Syria and on yesterday fabricated a claim that Kurdish forces had released 10,000 ISIS prisoners as justification; a claim that was immediately contradicted by another member of his own White House.

So far the U.S. government has taken essentially no action against Turkey in response to this operation. That includes the supposedly angered U.S. Congress, which has yet to vote on economic sanctions against Turkey despite its rhetorical condemnations. It's notable that the Congressional Republicans and military personnel seem to be angrier about our betrayal of the Kurds than do the Democrats writ large. I'm just pointing it out.

In response to the inaction of the United States, the SDF over the weekend struck a replacement protection deal with Bashir Al Assad's government that saw Syrian central government troops re-enter key Kurdish towns yet to be captured by Turkey to scenes of local jubilation.

(Regular updates can be found here.)

Turkey's stated aim is create a "safe zone" in northern Syria to send somewhere between 2 and 3 million Syrian refugees currently located in Turkey. The key thing to understand about that is that the current total Kurdish population in the "safe zone" that's being created is 2 million. In other words, this appears to the Kurds as an exercise in organized, systematic population replacement, which lends itself to fears of impending genocidal action against them by Turkish forces.

There are a multitude of ways that all of these developments could have been prevented. For example, had we simply done what the Kurds asked of us all along, which was to sell them not only small arms, but also tanks and planes for their fight against ISIS (since ISIS had captured plenty of those implements from the Syrian government) they might not remain so dependent on foreign military support at this point. Likewise, had our government not persuaded the SDF to abandon key defensive positions along the border with Turkey in order to appease the latter in vain over this last summer (the positions were handed over to U.S. forces, which were ordered to stand down last week by President Trump), there might have been a more potent resistance available. Or had we just simply remained until the SDF had built up sufficient armed forces of their own, this also most likely would never have happened. Following the onset of the Turkish invasion, we might have swiftly imposed economic sanctions on Turkey and imposed the no-fly zone over SDF-held territory in northern Syria as requested by the Kurdish military leaders. We chose to do none of those things. And at this point I say "we" because at this point, looking at the total inaction of Congress to date as well, it's no longer just the Trump White House that is implicated in this betrayal, it's America that is responsible.

Any action that our government may take against Turkey and/or in defense of the Kurds at this point is too little too late. We have already sold them out. The damage is done and the relationship cannot be repaired. Nor should it be, frankly. They're clearly better off without us.



EricHiggin said:

Not sure what is worse, the U.S. abandoning the Kurds, or countries worldwide and their people who think the Kurds deserve protection regardless, yet won't put their money/military where their mouth is.

What is more valuable, your own soldiers health/life, another soldiers health/life, money, or maybe public/worldwide relations?

I will tell you what is worst.  When you pull out your troops knowing the massacre that awaits your once allies, that is worst.  Who cares what other nations or other people would, should or could have done.  Did the US ever consult those other nations.  Did the US provide a timeline to their allies when they were going to pull out or give them a stable footing before leaving.  The only thing you are doing is trying to find someone else to blame to diffuse the bone headed action of the current President.



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The US's cowardly retreat from Syria, abandoning the Kurds to death, is the death knell of the US as an international superpower.



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Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

Not sure what is worse, the U.S. abandoning the Kurds, or countries worldwide and their people who think the Kurds deserve protection regardless, yet won't put their money/military where their mouth is.

What is more valuable, your own soldiers health/life, another soldiers health/life, money, or maybe public/worldwide relations?

I will tell you what is worst.  When you pull out your troops knowing the massacre that awaits your once allies, that is worst.  Who cares what other nations or other people would, should or could have done.  Did the US ever consult those other nations.  Did the US provide a timeline to their allies when they were going to pull out or give them a stable footing before leaving.  The only thing you are doing is trying to find someone else to blame to diffuse the bone headed action of the current President.

Maybe they did inform them, and maybe they didn't. It's not exactly the type of thing you would expect to see reporting or leaks on as it would just be asking to make the situation much worse by giving the Turks an advanced heads up as well. Like when Biden decided the prosecutor had to go, their allies were on board, which is fairly typical when the U.S. put's it's foot down, so it's not crazy to think America's allies just went along with it this time. On the other hand, Trump can make last minute decisions at times and just roll with it, and since he's the type of person who very well could make you pay if you don't play ball, maybe America's allies folded because they feared repercussions later on if they didn't follow suit.

If nobody else cares, then no other capable nation, or anyone from another capable nation should have anything to say other than the U.S. shouldn't just cut and run. If you feel for the Kurds in anyway, and have the financial or military capability to at the very least help them, then you should, otherwise it doesn't look good on you either. If you or your country aren't in a position to help, then pray away without guilt. I'm sure the Kurds wouldn't mind a few more helpful allies at a time like this.

The only thing I was trying to do was pose a question about which was worse. Neither looks good, which is why I posed the question the way I did.

Appreciate your point of view with a clear perspective on your stance about this issue, based on my initial question.



PS1   - ! - We must build a console that can alert our enemies.

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PRO  -%-We must build a console that's VR ready, checkerboard upscales, and sells but a fraction of the money printer.

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PRO  -&- We must build a console that Super Res upscales and continues the cost increases.

EricHiggin said:
Machiavellian said:

I will tell you what is worst.  When you pull out your troops knowing the massacre that awaits your once allies, that is worst.  Who cares what other nations or other people would, should or could have done.  Did the US ever consult those other nations.  Did the US provide a timeline to their allies when they were going to pull out or give them a stable footing before leaving.  The only thing you are doing is trying to find someone else to blame to diffuse the bone headed action of the current President.

Maybe they did inform them, and maybe they didn't. It's not exactly the type of thing you would expect to see reporting or leaks on as it would just be asking to make the situation much worse by giving the Turks an advanced heads up as well. Like when Biden decided the prosecutor had to go, their allies were on board, which is fairly typical when the U.S. put's it's foot down, so it's not crazy to think America's allies just went along with it this time. On the other hand, Trump can make last minute decisions at times and just roll with it, and since he's the type of person who very well could make you pay if you don't play ball, maybe America's allies folded because they feared repercussions later on if they didn't follow suit.

If nobody else cares, then no other capable nation, or anyone from another capable nation should have anything to say other than the U.S. shouldn't just cut and run. If you feel for the Kurds in anyway, and have the financial or military capability to at the very least help them, then you should, otherwise it doesn't look good on you either. If you or your country aren't in a position to help, then pray away without guilt. I'm sure the Kurds wouldn't mind a few more helpful allies at a time like this.

The only thing I was trying to do was pose a question about which was worse. Neither looks good, which is why I posed the question the way I did.

Appreciate your point of view with a clear perspective on your stance about this issue, based on my initial question.

Its very evident that Turkey knew the time and moment when the US troops were pulling out since they were already mobilizing on exactly that moment.  The problem with Trump making last minute decisions that causes a massacre is something that probably should have been well thought out but as we have seen multiple times with this administration, well thought out decisions isn't one of it's strong points.  We will see how much Trump can make people pay because lately the only thing he has done is make everyone pay for his blunders.

As to your second paragraph, the situation still stands, are the kurds our allies or not.  This ideal you can throw blame somewhere else is a fallacy. The simple situation is that the US forces were on the ground in this area.  It was the US who made allies out of the Kurds which helped us and our President claim victory over an enemy and take all the credit.  What I feel for the Kurds is pretty simple.  If they are our allies, then we protect them like they are our allies, not stab them in the back the moment we get the opportunity.  Who cares about any other nation since it was our troops that held the ground from this event from happening.  It was a world class blunder that has cost and will cost countless lives and as an American, I see no reason to seek to share the blame or find some way to include anyone else because its very evident that none of that was done.



This is how pathetic the situation has gotten. I'll just quote this article's title for everyone, as I think it's sufficient to communicate the absurdity of the situation President Trump has put us in vis-a-vis Syria:

US troops bombed their own anti-ISIS headquarters as Turkey-backed fighters closed in during Trump's hasty retreat

That's right: we're reduced to blowing up our own bases now. So so SO much winning.



Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

Maybe they did inform them, and maybe they didn't. It's not exactly the type of thing you would expect to see reporting or leaks on as it would just be asking to make the situation much worse by giving the Turks an advanced heads up as well. Like when Biden decided the prosecutor had to go, their allies were on board, which is fairly typical when the U.S. put's it's foot down, so it's not crazy to think America's allies just went along with it this time. On the other hand, Trump can make last minute decisions at times and just roll with it, and since he's the type of person who very well could make you pay if you don't play ball, maybe America's allies folded because they feared repercussions later on if they didn't follow suit.

If nobody else cares, then no other capable nation, or anyone from another capable nation should have anything to say other than the U.S. shouldn't just cut and run. If you feel for the Kurds in anyway, and have the financial or military capability to at the very least help them, then you should, otherwise it doesn't look good on you either. If you or your country aren't in a position to help, then pray away without guilt. I'm sure the Kurds wouldn't mind a few more helpful allies at a time like this.

The only thing I was trying to do was pose a question about which was worse. Neither looks good, which is why I posed the question the way I did.

Appreciate your point of view with a clear perspective on your stance about this issue, based on my initial question.

Its very evident that Turkey knew the time and moment when the US troops were pulling out since they were already mobilizing on exactly that moment.  The problem with Trump making last minute decisions that causes a massacre is something that probably should have been well thought out but as we have seen multiple times with this administration, well thought out decisions isn't one of it's strong points.  We will see how much Trump can make people pay because lately the only thing he has done is make everyone pay for his blunders.

As to your second paragraph, the situation still stands, are the kurds our allies or not.  This ideal you can throw blame somewhere else is a fallacy. The simple situation is that the US forces were on the ground in this area.  It was the US who made allies out of the Kurds which helped us and our President claim victory over an enemy and take all the credit.  What I feel for the Kurds is pretty simple.  If they are our allies, then we protect them like they are our allies, not stab them in the back the moment we get the opportunity.  Who cares about any other nation since it was our troops that held the ground from this event from happening.  It was a world class blunder that has cost and will cost countless lives and as an American, I see no reason to seek to share the blame or find some way to include anyone else because its very evident that none of that was done.

Well that seems to make me think the decision was being talked about and made ahead of time, because if Trump made the decisions last minute, how did the Turks know how to mobilize for that exact time? It could also mean there was a leak, which shouldn't have happened, but based on America's intelligence branches and there leaks over the last couple of years, well. If a leak did come from American intelligence to make the problem much worse, then considering who's been doing the majority of the leaking, and who it typically impacts, I'd say both sides are partially to blame.

If what other countries do or say doesn't matter, then who cares about anything related to Russia? They're just sticking their noses into America's business, so who cares? Russia sticking it's nose into America's election impacted the outcome you say? Well you know what would impact the outcome of the Kurd/Turk conflict right now? Another country who's capable, getting involved and helping solve the problem. Does one matter, yet the other doesn't, even though they both effect America?

Lastly, let's say you help a newly acquired friend financially who was slightly in debt, partially because nobody else will even though their capable, and because it will likely lead to a positive outcome for both of you. Now what if that friend get's kidnapped and held for a costly ransom like a month afterwards? If you don't pay that ransom to get them released, does that make you a terrible person, considering you tried to help a little in the first place? What about this friends parents, siblings, cousins, friends, etc, who all don't want this unfortunate soul to face the consequences? Do they factor into this at all? If they decide not to help out, does the finger get pointed solely at you, because you're the newest ally who decided to help a little bit?

Last edited by EricHiggin - on 16 October 2019

PS1   - ! - We must build a console that can alert our enemies.

PS2  - @- We must build a console that offers online living room gaming.

PS3   - #- We must build a console that’s powerful, social, costs and does everything.

PS4   - $- We must build a console that’s affordable, charges for services, and pumps out exclusives.

PRO  -%-We must build a console that's VR ready, checkerboard upscales, and sells but a fraction of the money printer.

PS5   - ^ -We must build a console that’s a generational cross product, with RT lighting, and price hiking.

PRO  -&- We must build a console that Super Res upscales and continues the cost increases.