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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

Spike0503 on 08 April 2020
Moren said:
SpokenTruth said:

So who failed the people here?  Sanders or the Party?

If Sanders had done anything to even give the impression he wanted to reach people beyond his most ardent supporters post-Nevada, there is nothing the party could have done to stop him.

Instead, he wanted to win with his 30%.

What about the MSM who desperately wanted him out? Calling his supporters brown shirts and saying they expected to see people murdered in the streets of NY if he won. Even those weren't as extreme still had the whole "Bernie Bro" narrative.

Bernie needed to beat not only Biden but also the DNC plus the MSM.



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jason1637 on 08 April 2020
the-pi-guy said:
jason1637 said:

We didn't fail him. We don't owe him our votes. He failed to have a platform most people in Democratic party can get behind twice. 

>He failed to have a platform most people in Democratic party can get behind twice.

That's why we failed him. He put up a great platform, one that he had been fighting for his entire life. But we were too afraid of change to give him a chance. 

That doesn't mean we owed him votes, but he certainly deserved them. 

He had a great platform to you but that doesn't mean he had a great platform for the party he was running under. He lost in 2016 and decided to use the exact same platform with some tweaks and expected to win. Bernie refused to step out of his bubble. His campaign always felt like if you weren't with him you were against him.

SpokenTruth said:
Ryuu96 said:
So um, should we close this thread now and move to the main one?

I thought we might hang on to it until the Democratic National Convention but I'm not sure now.

jason1637 said:

We didn't fail him. We don't owe him our votes. He failed to have a platform most people in Democratic party can get behind twice. 

Yeah, we failed him. He spent his entire life trying to make things better for the average person and when we had the best opportunity to see those better times we stayed him....before staying home was cool.

And you're partly right.  He did fail to have a platform the Democratic "Party" could get behind.  But the Democratic people themselves damn sure like his platform.

So who failed the people here?  Sanders or the Party?

That doesn't mean we owe him anything. He failed to convince most people in the party that he should be POTUS. He didn't convince us that we should vote for him over anyone else and that's nones fault but himself. He even lost a lot of his base this primary. A lot of the working class people decided Biden was the better candidate for them.

Sanders. Democrats might like some of his policies but he's not the one they want implementing them.



Jumpin on 08 April 2020
Raven said:
the-pi-guy said:

>He failed to have a platform most people in Democratic party can get behind twice.

That's why we failed him. He put up a great platform, one that he had been fighting for his entire life. But we were too afraid of change to give him a chance. 

That doesn't mean we owed him votes, but he certainly deserved them. 

Don't get me wrong, I synced up with Bernie's ideals more than other candidates, certainly more than Biden's, but if this guy has been fighting so hard his entire life, why did it seem like drawing blood from a stone to get him to expand upon any of those ideals and explain how he was going to move forward in accomplishing them when in office? People dog on Warren, but she attempted to actually provide roadmaps to the policies she put forth. Sure, not everything proceeds according to a roadmap, but the fact that she had that shows me as a voter that she had put a lot of thought and consideration into the steps she wanted to take. Bernie had a lot of interesting and potentially wonderful and transformative ideas for the country, but we never got the sense that there was a fully fleshed out plan to make those come true other than "a political revolution".

Great post.

Part of the issue was this irrational assault from Bernie fans directed at Elizabeth Warren. They basically ignored Trump and Biden and attacked Elizabeth Warren bringing up all sorts of arbitrary BS to try and frame her as some kind of a Republican operative. I'm not American, but that was some of the most ridiculously counter-productive stuff I have ever seen - to the point where I wonder if they were right-wingers who just pretend to be left-wingers to try to give their concerns legitimacy. I wonder the monetary value of the man-hours was put into this anti-Elizabeth Warren campaign.

A guy needs more than ideals alone to be a great and effective leader. Bernie Sanders had strengths in attracting culty sorts, but he failed to attract the rational left.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Moren on 08 April 2020
SpokenTruth said:
Moren said:

If Sanders had done anything to even give the impression he wanted to reach people beyond his most ardent supporters post-Nevada, there is nothing the party could have done to stop him.

Instead, he wanted to win with his 30%.

What does this even mean?  Did only his ardent supporters see or hear his TV/Radio/Digital ads?  Did only his ardent supports have the option to watch the debates? Did only his ardent supports have access to his media interviews?

This is what you get wrong. It's not the voters who are supposed to seek Bernie and get convinced. He should have worked to get people uncomfortable with his candidacy.

He knew African American voters in the South were a bit more risk-verse, and that the Democratic Party was all many ever had. He still bashed the party and the figures. He didn't get any major local surrogates.

He knew suburbanites in Virginia were uncomfortable with his "insurgent, socialist" message even if many agreed with his policies. He kept the labels.

He knew Florida despised Castro. He chose to double down and sent Cynthia Nixon as a supposed ambassador.

He could have done multiple things to get people to like him. And without changing a single of his policies.

Last edited by Moren - on 08 April 2020

tsogud on 08 April 2020

Bernie won the ideological battle but that was only half of it he needed to be strategic in garnering more support from Warren supporters (she won over people that Bernie wasn't able to). But it's a tough sell when you go around calling yourself a democratic socialist organizing for a political revolution to people who are content with the oppressive system already in place. Even though I do believe we need a political revolution, he should've saved that talk for the general.

His supporters weren't the problem it was his strategy.



 

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Metallox on 08 April 2020

So... Trump for another term essentially confirmed?



My bet with The_Liquid_Laser: I think the Switch won't surpass the PS2 as the best selling system of all time. If it does, I'll play a game of a list that The_Liquid_Laser will provide, I will have to play it for 50 hours or complete it, whatever comes first. 

Moren on 08 April 2020
Metallox said:
So... Trump for another term essentially confirmed?

No.

Unless only Twitter voted.



Moren on 08 April 2020
SpokenTruth said:
jason1637 said:

That doesn't mean we owe him anything. He failed to convince most people in the party that he should be POTUS. He didn't convince us that we should vote for him over anyone else and that's nones fault but himself. He even lost a lot of his base this primary. A lot of the working class people decided Biden was the better candidate for them.

Sanders. Democrats might like some of his policies but he's not the one they want implementing them.

Did they decide that after vetting?  Or after the MSM told them Biden was better?  Go look at the entrance and exit polls figures for 'time frame of decision prior to voting'.  The closer to the primary election before deciding, the more likely that decision was not a vetted decision but a go-with-who-the-media-hypes decision. Biden was overwhelmingly voted for by people that decided less than 3 days prior to their primary election.

As for THEY...you're closer to the answer here.  They is they party.  The party did not want Sanders so we didn't get Sanders. 

Your contempt and lack of respect for voters is showing.

Three days before Super Tuesday, there was a crowded field. After that was no longer the case, the undecided voters broke for Biden because out of the remaining choices, he was closer to them.

Your post here reeks of superiority complex.



jason1637 on 08 April 2020
SpokenTruth said:
jason1637 said:

That doesn't mean we owe him anything. He failed to convince most people in the party that he should be POTUS. He didn't convince us that we should vote for him over anyone else and that's nones fault but himself. He even lost a lot of his base this primary. A lot of the working class people decided Biden was the better candidate for them.

Sanders. Democrats might like some of his policies but he's not the one they want implementing them.

Did they decide that after vetting?  Or after the MSM told them Biden was better?  Go look at the entrance and exit polls figures for 'time frame of decision prior to voting'.  The closer to the primary election before deciding, the more likely that decision was not a vetted decision but a go-with-who-the-media-hypes decision. Biden was overwhelmingly voted for by people that decided less than 3 days prior to their primary election.

As for THEY...you're closer to the answer here.  They is they party.  The party did not want Sanders so we didn't get Sanders. 

We live in a world where the majority of Americans don't trust the media and Trump became President while getting the most negative press for anyone who ever ran for that position. The reasons that most Biden supporters voted for him a few days before the election was because a lot of moderates dropped and people were moving over to Biden. Also a lot of Bidens supporters voted for Bernie in 2016 when he was still getting negative press so what's the difference now?

Okay the party did not want Sander but neither did the voters.



jason1637 on 09 April 2020
SpokenTruth said:
jason1637 said:

We live in a world where the majority of Americans don't trust the media and 1). Trump became President while getting the most negative press for anyone who ever ran for that position. 2). The reasons that most Biden supporters voted for him a few days before the election was because a lot of moderates dropped and people were moving over to Biden. 3). Also a lot of Bidens supporters voted for Bernie in 2016 when he was still getting negative press so what's the difference now?

4). Okay the party did not want Sander but neither did the voters.

1). I assure you that Trump supporters don't watch CNN, MSNBC, etc...  In fact, the more negative you get on those channels, the more support Trump gets.  You do understand the psychology of that, yes?

2). Again, that works well for Super Tuesday but explain how that functions for every single state.  Oh, and not just this primary. 

3). Do you have data showing what % of current Biden supporters voted for Sanders over Clinton?  And then MSM difference is huge compared to 2016.  MSNBC, the most progressive of the big media outlets, was making references to Sanders as Hitler, Nazism, Brown Shirts, etc...  They mostly ignored him in 2016. Now the outlet most closely aligned with his own policies were outright smearing the hell out of him with hyperbole they never even used on Trump.

4). We're circling back now.  Read what you quoted again. 

Are we just going to ignore what the party did to Sanders in 2016?  Are we just going to act as though the party was not going to do it (or anything else) again?

Boy did the party and the MSM get real frikkin quiet about MeToo once their guy was alleged of sexual assault.  Do you think they'll mention his creepy touchy feely actions with little girls?  Or nah.  Did that ever come up at a debate?  But let me tell you what, Sanders gets accused of saying a woman can't be president and the media goes nuts. 

1) When he started his campaign the RNC and conservative media gave him negative press and preferred Bush or Cruz. He adapted his campaign to policies that fit with what the people of the party wanted while being open to cooperate with other members of the party. These things Bernie failed to do.

2) It's just momentum. After Super Tuesday Biden had a lot of momentum and that grew ad election days got closer.

3) Only one person that MSNBC was making those references towards Bernie and he no longer works there. To see the shift towards Biden all you gotta compare some primary results after every viable candidate had dropped. Here is an example fro Michigan. 

In 2016 Bernie won all of these demographics but lost them in 2020. 

4) None is forgetting it just does not change anything. In 2016 Sanders still lost the popular vote despite the DNC rigging the delegates in favor of Clinton. I