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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

jason1637 said:
tsogud said:

Bernie's climate plan directly addresses that issue as well and goes a step further in having a federal jobs guarantee and training for the transition off of fossil fuels.

Yes Biden's healthcare plan tries to make healthcare affordable but that's the entire problem. Healthcare should be guaranteed for all not affordable for some. That article I linked a few posts back explains the inherent problems with Biden's proposal.

The black community are split generationally with young black voters overwhelmingly supporting Bernie and older black voters overwhelmingly supporting Joe. Older black voters and older voters in general vote in larger numbers than younger voters for various socioeconomical reasons; for example there are more younger people in the workforce that have two/three jobs, younger people have the kinds of jobs that don't readily allow them to take a day or hour off to vote, etc.

Bernie's plans will lift some of the burden being felt by the younger generation specifically younger poc and that will, hopefully in turn, allow them to have the agency they need to vote and let their voice be heard.

The time for incrementalism is over, we had our chance to go as slow as we wanted to regarding climate change but our govt was too busy being bought out by special interests to care. Now we have no choice but to change drastically our way of life and thinking to even hope to save our planet from irreparable damage.

A Joe Biden presidency with his current platform would've been great progress in the 80's but it doesn't cut it now.

I already explained the issues with Bernies federal job guarantee a few post back. Basickly the maht shows that job training how a low sucess rate and people dont want to be forced to work for the government. 

Bidens plan is guaranteed for all who wants it. If everyone in America wants free healthcare they jusy gotta opt in to Bidens plan. He's giving people a choice.

What matters at the end of the dya is who votes. Even if young Black people support you it does not matter if they dont vote for you at the end of the day. Black voters overhwemingly voted for Biden and want him to be their voice.

Well his plans arent resinating with younger people as much as expected because young voter turnour is down. Biden also has plans to help younger generation btw.

Climate change is a big issue but if we want things actually done we gotta take strategic steps. In a perfect world we could go all out but its not a perfect world. Lately here in NYC they banned plastic bags the other day and every paper bag i've used has broken on me. My bag fell today and my lunch i bought today was ruined so i had to rebuy it. This bill should have been a transition over a certain amount of time not just an automatic thing because it will just cause more problems.

Biden was more progressive than Obama in 2008 tho and has moved along with the times. Some of his policies today would have not been thing he supported years ago.

Black people aren't monolithic, younger black voters want Bernie to be their voice. Support is very much split among younger voters and older voters of really every race and ethnic group. Though an exception is that Latin voters young and old support Bernie overwhelmingly.

In a perfect world incrementalism would've been preferred by most but we've squandered our time and so now we don't have that luxury anymore. Our home is at stake.

If there wasn't so much at stake and if I wasn't a trans poc I would be happy with voting for Biden. But the world is too fucked up now, we desperately need change to happen and not from the top down, from the bottom on up.

Last edited by tsogud - on 04 March 2020

 

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jason1637 said:
tsogud said:

Go back to the drawing board then.

So when someone points out that the math might not add up and other economist mention Sanders might not raise enough to fund his plans and you respond "Go back to the drawing board then." It does not help your case.

Honey I was making light of the convo, but honestly there are economists that agree with Sanders and some that don't. Unless there are an undeniable unanimous majority on one side, the decision to support or not support his proposals are completely personal and yours to make. And it sounds like you don't.

Last edited by tsogud - on 04 March 2020

 

SpokenTruth said:
jason1637 said:

I can find plenty of sources that say that his proposals will cost more than he says they will and that his taxes to generate money wont be enough.

For example his climate change proposals will be payed by his tax plan according to that site but i literally just did the math and it does not add up.

Were those written before or after he laid out all the details?  Do they, and yours, include everything he has listed in his tax plan? What math doesn't add up?

Some are from his 2016 platform and some are from a few weeks or days ago. I'm not sure when he published that plan cause there are no dates on his site.

These are two recent ones which are probably after he published that. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/22/wharton-study-bernie-sanders-wealth-tax-would-fall-1-trillion-shy.html 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/02/sanderss-pricey-tax-and-spending-plans/607105/

The first basickly says that Bernies estimate for his wealth tax only  are 1-1.5 trillion off. It also mentions that Biden is 600-900 million off.

Second link mentions that all of Sanders taxes would generate 29 trillion in 10 years and thats 25 trillion short of where it needs to be.



Moren said:

"Dem" thread: Video representation.

So, left people like Cenk care for the result and are passionate, because they know the policies in the US are killing people. Centrists are relaxed and centered, because their rich interest groups still will be rich. So yeah, leftist will be more fired up.



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Moren said:
I also want to add - if the far-left had compromised just an inch, Elizabeth Warren could have probably cruised with the nomination with progressive ideals, and gotten the suburban + women coalition that utterly shunned Sanders. She would have gotten strong party backing while at it.

As a reminder: late fall Warren was improving and often in second place. Not the leftists squandered her chance, but Warren herself by going soft on medicare and instead of unifying starting to attack both centrists as leftists. You and many other centrists are so fast to blame progressive for everything going wrong for a candidate, but the reality is, that each voter only has to listen to their own reasons. If a candidate fails to win them over, it is the fault of the candidate. It was 2016 Hillaries fault to lose to Trump, it is Warrens fault she lost her lead and it is als Sanders fault that he squandered his polling lead.

But never ask for compromise over policies that are killing people. "Oh let's compromise. Instead of killing everyone, we only kill every second one. That you must agree with, right?"



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Mnementh said:
Moren said:

"Dem" thread: Video representation.

So, left people like Cenk care for the result and are passionate, because they know the policies in the US are killing people. Centrists are relaxed and centered, because their rich interest groups still will be rich. So yeah, leftist will be more fired up.

Cenk (like Bernie) told you in 2016 to vote for the same candidate that was endorsed by GH Bush, Jeb Bush, Bill Kristol, Colin Powell, Paul Wolfowitz, David Frum, Jonah Goldberg, Erik Erikson, Max Boot, Glenn Beck, etc.

Cenk crushed the attempt of his workers to form a union at TYT.

TYT is swimming in corporate money from google and hedge-funds ($20M from L Capital, Greycroft, E.ventures, WndrCo)

It's a con and now he got 5% when he faced a real audience.



So it's not just conservatives who complain about the mainstream media. Nice little moment of solidarity is in there somewhere.



Warren is out, 2 person race (with a side of Tulsi) which is good. This is actually really good right now.



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uran10 said:

Again I will say this one more time and leave it at that. You run a progressive presidential campaign you win - Obama

You run a "centrist"(right wing) campaign you lose - Hillary, Al gore, Kerry.

What did Obama do differently besides run a better campaign than the 3 loser centrist? Oh yea, he won the youth vote in the Primary and energized them. So, regardless of how many times you try this nonsense history is literally on my side here. Centrist presidential campaigns always take the L come november, while Obama ran as a progressive both times and got the W.

Also Hax, you literally know nothing about UK politics if you think that's why Corbyn lost. He sided with the neoliberals in the UK when it came to the one issue that determined the entire election, Brexit. Don't even try that one.

And here you are again with your fictional analysis. As always, it's easy to dismantle.

1. While I am sure you can create a list of arbitrary points while you think Obama was more progressive than Clinton, it's a fiction. They are relatively equal in terms of progressiveness. You base your criteria/purity tests on bullshit, created only to serve your culty Bernie fandom and has no place in reality.

2. Your second point has already been thoroughly disproven. Bernie Sanders already lost to Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. He consistently under-performs by a high margin when compared to the opinion polls.

You are creating this fantasy account of how social progress has happened, and it goes against historical data. You're not a progressive, most of your posts are anti-progressive and attacks on the left. People like you do WAY more to hurt the progressive movement than help it.

Left or right, all cults of personality are a cancer on democracy. When the left has so-called "supporters" like this Bernie Cult (which he never asked for), who needs enemies? The Bernie or Bust/Bernie Bros/whatever they want to call themselves are, for all intents and purposes, helpful for the Republican party; they’re useful idiots for Trump.

No matter how 



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

So Warren drops out but Tulsi Gabbard is still in the race. What exactly is the point for Gabbard to stay in the race other than taking votes from Bernie?